Question for Dean Shomshak

[GestaltBennie]

A Champions Online player wants to know if the Ban applies to the Lords of the realms in Netzach.

 

Thanks.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Interesting question. My own assessment would be "no," because the Inner Planes containing the Imaginal Realms in which the gods definitely affected by the Ban dwell are in Yesod, while Netzach lies "beyond" the Inner Planes. The Imaginal Realms are shaped and defined by human belief, while the Netzach dimensions exist independently of Earth and humanity. But I'd love to hear Dean's intent behind the Ban.

 

In a related question to Mr. Shomshak, are Thulkos and the Congeries, the dimensions of Tyrannon and Skarn, in Netzach like the realms of other "dimension lords?" I know The Mystic World p. 135 says, "Thulkos began as an Assiatic dimension," but doesn't say whether it's still considered part of Assiah.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Scott: No, the entities from the Outer Planes can invade Earth at will. The Ban applies only to humanity's gods.

 

As a setting element, the Ban exists because of the way Steve Long wanted gods to be written -- on thousands of points. See Tezcatlipoca for an example. If dozens (hundreds?) of such entities can be active on Champions-Earth any time they want, it dilutes the impact of human heroes and villains. It also raises the question of how Skarn, Tyrannon or other dimensional conquerors can pose a serious threat to Earth if dozens (hundreds?) of Tezcatlipocas can defend it and have an interest in doing so.

 

(Which also explains why Mystic World says the supernatural powers of gods don't work against entities from the Outer Planes. The defense of Earth is humanity's responsibility. I forgot to mention it in the book, but all the "dodges" by which gods reduce their power to operate on Earth as PCs also remove that limitation. So, if Tyrannon invades Faerie, the god Ogoun can't fight him in any way but fisticuffs, but the god's mortal avatar, the hero Ogoun, can use all his powers effectively. So can the PC-level demigod Chrysaor because he's not a full god. Etc.)

 

The Ban is sort of a brute-force solution, I admit, and I'm not entirely happy with it. I wouldn't criticize a GM who adopted some other solution to keep gods from dominating the setting.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Lord Liaden: The Congeries is definitely a Netzach plane. There is no law but Skarn's will.

 

Thulkos superficially seems to maintain some natural laws, such as the tendency of matter to collect in Hula Hoop shapes. That is only an appearance, though. The central spheres of world-loops and star-loops could not exist under Thulkos' old system of natural law. So, modern Thulkos is a Netzach dimension as well.

 

Keep in mind that the distinction between Netzach dimensions and Hod dimensions is partly political: Whether there is a dimension lord actively controlling the dimension. So, what if Skarn or Tyrannon die? The GM must decide what happens to their dimensions.

 

If the Congeries and Thulkos continue operating by whatever rules, in whatever condition their masters last imposed, they become Hod dimensions.

 

On the other hand, maybe the dimensions fall apart without their masters as keystones... which means Skarn and Tyrannon both have a whole lot of hostages to protect their lives.

 

For a third option, maybe the system is so strong that if you kill the dimension's master, the plane sucks a new entity into the role of dimension lord. (Think of how Dormammu's flames of regency switched to Umar and Clea.) Plausibly, this would be the nearest and most powerful mystic to the slain lord. Like, the PC who just struck the death-blow, who is now the *new* dimension lord and bound by the same restrictions as Skarn or Tyrannon.

 

Oops.

 

(As GM, I would give the PC a brief window in which to use the vast Cosmic Pool "inherited" from the dead dimension lord to restructure Thulkos or the Congeries so the dimension could survive on its own, as a Hod plane. But it would be interesting to see the player's reaction.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Steve]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Mr. Shomshak, what would you propose as an alternative to the Ban? I am curious what other solutions might work.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Boy, I love comic-book metaphysics.

 

Scott: No, the entities from the Outer Planes can invade Earth at will. The Ban applies only to humanity's gods.

 

As a setting element, the Ban exists because of the way Steve Long wanted gods to be written -- on thousands of points. See Tezcatlipoca for an example. If dozens (hundreds?) of such entities can be active on Champions-Earth any time they want, it dilutes the impact of human heroes and villains. It also raises the question of how Skarn, Tyrannon or other dimensional conquerors can pose a serious threat to Earth if dozens (hundreds?) of Tezcatlipocas can defend it and have an interest in doing so.

 

I always figured that was the reasoning behind the Ban. Same basic reasoning behind not having a lot of ultra-powerful NPC heroes in the setting -- the PCs are supposed to be the ones saving the day. But people should be aware that Dean himself came up with the concept of the Ban and published it in The Ultimate Super Mage, long before Steve Long was calling the shots for the CU.

 

(Which also explains why Mystic World says the supernatural powers of gods don't work against entities from the Outer Planes. The defense of Earth is humanity's responsibility. I forgot to mention it in the book' date=' but all the "dodges" by which gods reduce their power to operate on Earth as PCs also remove that limitation. So, if Tyrannon invades Faerie, the god Ogoun can't fight him in any way but fisticuffs, but the god's mortal avatar, the hero Ogoun, can use all his powers effectively. So can the PC-level demigod Chrysaor because he's not a full god. Etc.)[/quote']

 

I've run the situation more or less this way for my own (modified) CU-based games, but always felt a little uncomfortable that I might be missing a key point that would make sense for that restriction to apply to such PC characters too. Glad to see I wasn't.

 

The Ban is sort of a brute-force solution, I admit, and I'm not entirely happy with it. I wouldn't criticize a GM who adopted some other solution to keep gods from dominating the setting.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I actually thought the Ban became rather superfluous when Steve Long adopted the concept of waxing and waning ambient magic for the "ages" of the official Hero Universe. During eras of very low magic, like the Valdorian, the gods weren't able to manifest on Earth at all, and even entered a kind of torpor until magic rose again. Magic on modern CU Earth still isn't as strong as during the Turakian or Atlantean Ages, when gods could enter the world at will.

 

OTOH relying on that premise would beg the question of how dimensional conquerors could threaten Earth without being similarly diminished by the low magic. They might need the same kind of "dodges" as the mythic gods to act here.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Lord Liaden: The Congeries is definitely a Netzach plane. There is no law but Skarn's will.

 

Thulkos superficially seems to maintain some natural laws, such as the tendency of matter to collect in Hula Hoop shapes. That is only an appearance, though. The central spheres of world-loops and star-loops could not exist under Thulkos' old system of natural law. So, modern Thulkos is a Netzach dimension as well.

 

Keep in mind that the distinction between Netzach dimensions and Hod dimensions is partly political: Whether there is a dimension lord actively controlling the dimension. So, what if Skarn or Tyrannon die? The GM must decide what happens to their dimensions.

 

If the Congeries and Thulkos continue operating by whatever rules, in whatever condition their masters last imposed, they become Hod dimensions.

 

On the other hand, maybe the dimensions fall apart without their masters as keystones... which means Skarn and Tyrannon both have a whole lot of hostages to protect their lives.

 

For a third option, maybe the system is so strong that if you kill the dimension's master, the plane sucks a new entity into the role of dimension lord. (Think of how Dormammu's flames of regency switched to Umar and Clea.) Plausibly, this would be the nearest and most powerful mystic to the slain lord. Like, the PC who just struck the death-blow, who is now the *new* dimension lord and bound by the same restrictions as Skarn or Tyrannon.

 

Oops.

 

(As GM, I would give the PC a brief window in which to use the vast Cosmic Pool "inherited" from the dead dimension lord to restructure Thulkos or the Congeries so the dimension could survive on its own, as a Hod plane. But it would be interesting to see the player's reaction.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Thank you very much for that detailed and thoughtful reply, Dean. And for suggesting several scenario possibilities for me to spring on my unsuspecting PCs.

 

There's no reason why all of the above outcomes to overthrowing a dimension lord couldn't apply, depending on the particular dimension. For that matter, player overconfidence in thinking they have the situation figured out after one dimensional encounter could bite them for a subsequent different one.

[Balabanto]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

In my game, gods are powerful humans who have mutated over time into beings built on thousands of points. But...the power of a god is limited by the number of worshippers he has. Clever gods have found ways around this. Less clever ones don't...

[psyber624]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

For the uninitiated, can someone please tell me what publications I can find this sort of thing in? I love concepts like dimension lords and such but not sure where to go to read up on all this.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

But people should be aware that Dean himself came up with the concept of the Ban and published it in The Ultimate Super Mage, long before Steve Long was calling the shots for the CU.

Wow. It's been so many years (and campaigns, and writing projects) I'd forgotten about that earlier version of the Ban. Yeah, in USM the Ban was to explain (or explain away) how Christianity and Islam could ever replace the old polytheisms if the gods could appear at will and remind people they were real, and powerful. In the superheroic Age, this version of the Ban fell almost completely and gods were merely faced with the problem of being in another dimension.

 

But then, USM also suggested writing up gods in the normal power range for superbeings, with only a few being significantly more powerful. (Which can be done. As an exercise, I wrote up a "starting PC" Thor on 400 points -- though it had to be early Marvel's version, with OIAID on damn near everything.) In this case, pantheons are no more a problem for the setting than any other small, super-powered race such as the Eternals and Inhumans for Marvel. Long's decision to make every god comparable to Doctor Destroyer made the problem sharper, and required the Ban to continue in some form.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Mr. Shomshak' date=' what would you propose as an alternative to the Ban? I am curious what other solutions might work.[/quote']

As I said above, designing gods on the same point range as most superbeings removes a lot of the problems. Though this can be tricky if you think gods need lots of Life Support, Universal Translator and other miscellaneous powers and such.

 

Though this can lead to other story problems. How do you enable Loki to fight all the Avengers, if he isn't written on significantly more points than the individual Avengers? You may need to come up with "dodges" the other way, to give villain gods a power-up.

 

White Wolf's game Scion takes an interesting approach. In Scion, worship is irrelevant to gods: What matters are that mortals know their stories. However, a god who uses his powers too freely around mortals can become bound by the mortals' expectations. It becomes harder and harder to do anything but play out the roles the mortals expect, repeating the same stories over and over again. So, gods use mortal disguises when they act on Earth, try not to use their full power where mortals can see them... and produce half-human children to do things for them as a new generation of heroes who will be less bound by mortal expectations.

 

(Yeah, it's Percy Jackson: The RPG in all but name. And as usual for WW, it has brilliant setting and suck mechanics. Some excellent supplements, though, including material written or developed by, , me.)

 

An exact translation of Scion's "fatebinding" mechanic into Hero terms would likely be unwieldy, but you could probably design something along the same idea. Gods would need strong motives to act on Earth; but they could exploit the new tropes of costumed heroes and villains to insulate themselves somewhat from being trapped in old myths.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

That brings up an interesting thought about the nature of the Ban as it relates to the Judeo-Christian and Arabic religions. The section dealing with the subject in The Mystic World more or less stated that the Abrahamic deity had an influence on it becoming an insurmountable obstacle to gods manifesting on earth. So is it similarly restricted by a prohibition it helped craft, does it follow the Ban as a matter of philosophy/policy rather than necessity, or is neither true but its intervention has fallen to the wayside because the differing expectations of billions of worshipers tug it in too many directions to ever settle on one course of action?

[Steve Long]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

If I ever get to publish Mythic Hero, you'll see a lot more gods, built on lots of points. But not necessarily the same as they would be in the CU; the Tezcatlipoca of MH differs in many respects from the Tezcatlipoca in CV1, in the process providing me with a great sidebar about "customizing gods for your own campaign and personal opinions."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

For the uninitiated' date=' can someone please tell me what publications I can find this sort of thing in? I love concepts like dimension lords and such but not sure where to go to read up on all this.[/quote']

 

Of the books currently in print and available, The Mystic World is your primary source for who's who and what's what for the occult side of the Champions Universe. Other books develop or add to specific areas, but this is the foundation and broadest overview.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

That brings up an interesting thought about the nature of the Ban as it relates to the Judeo-Christian and Arabic religions. The section dealing with the subject in The Mystic World more or less stated that the Abrahamic deity had an influence on it becoming an insurmountable obstacle to gods manifesting on earth. So is it similarly restricted by a prohibition it helped craft' date=' does it follow the Ban as a matter of philosophy/policy rather than necessity, or is neither true but its intervention has fallen to the wayside because the differing expectations of billions of worshipers tug it in too many directions to ever settle on one course of action?[/quote']

 

I noticed that The Mystic World's description of the Ban more or less states that all gods and their major servants, even those of the "ethical" religions, are restricted in acting on Earth because of the Ban, but not how the Ban specifically affects the gods of ethical faiths. Dean Shomshak did touch on that in The Ultimate Super Mage, although I don't know who would decide if that's still canon in the current incarnation of the Champions Universe. Essentially, part of the new theologies was that divinity's proper seat was not on some mountain peak or island in the world, but in a higher state of being only accessible to human souls through spiritual refinement. Ironically, when that notion took hold in the world it locked the ethical gods out of direct intervention on Earth just as effectively as it had the gods of older mythologies.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

What I find interesting is that the rising tide of magic on modern Champions Earth seems to allow gods the ability to overcome or bypass the Ban in the limited ways described in the sourcebooks; like it gives them leverage or something. That fits reasonably well with Hero Earth's history before the resurgence of magic in 1938. Ambient magic had been low for many centuries, hence the supernatural had little effect on the course of history which largely paralleled real-world Earth's.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Thanks for the response, Dean!

[psyber624]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Of the books currently in print and available' date=' [i']The Mystic World[/i] is your primary source for who's who and what's what for the occult side of the Champions Universe. Other books develop or add to specific areas, but this is the foundation and broadest overview.

 

Thanks man, added it to the ever-increasing list of books i want from this company. LOL I'm going to be buying HERO books for years just to catch up (not to mention new titles as they come along.......)

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

How "canonical" is USM? At this point, not very. Everything genuinely important got ported over to Ultimate Mystic and Mystic World.

 

Also, don't be too sure that Yahweh had anything to do with creating the Ban. He may have been as surprised (and annoyed) by it as any other deity. The description of the Ban's rise is deliberately somewhat vague and the matter of causality and intentionality.

 

If anyone is the prime mover for the Ban, I'd nominate Urizen as the cosmic entity with the strongest interest in promoting religious belief centered on doctrine rather than direct experience. At crucial moments, though, Urizen could have possessed Yahweh and made him say and do things to support the plan.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Urizen possessing Yahweh... that concept is a serious theological "Whoah!"

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Or maybe Thaumiel, the Two-Faced Lord of Good and Evil. In my own campaign, lots of cosmic entities made Yahweh their sock puppet, pulling him this way and that like dogs fighting over a juicy bone because he was such a *useful* sock puppet. He had like five minutes a day of free will. The final story arc in my second Supermage playtes campaign dealt with Yahweh's jailbreak from Elysium.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I hadn't considered the possibility of contention by multiple higher-dimension powers over a single god rather than just having the one that's the most nearly suited do some possessing occasionally (like the Trickster working through Coyote... or Bugs Bunny), but it does make sense that Yahweh would be the most desirable agent for such tactics, what with the extremely wide congregation base. I guess sometimes extremely successful marketing campaigns can have their unforeseen drawbacks!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Personally I'd be uncomfortable with the higher cosmic powers meddling with a local deity to that degree -- just strikes me that that much intervention would be beneath them. I'd also be more interested in seeing Yahweh/ Jehovah/ Allah being himself, which would be complex and contradictory enough. But as a springboard for a mind-boggling scenario, the concept is brilliant.

 

I just wonder where in the Multiverse Yahweh would think he could seek refuge from super-heavyweights like those. Also begs the question of who might try to fill the power vacuum.

 

Now that reminds me of another issue. The official Champions Universe seems to accept the premise of Lucifer's revolt and fall (for one thing, the state of Therakiel in Vibora Bay is based on that), but Lucifer himself is nowhere to be seen in the description of the Netherworld, or any other mystic realm, either in The Mystic World or The Ultimate Super Mage. Dean, did you ever try to figure where Lucifer fits into the grand scheme?

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I just wonder where in the Multiverse Yahweh would think he could seek refuge from super-heavyweights like those.

 

Hmm, does the influence of the Zoas and their assorted manifestations extend below Assiah into the Qliphothic World?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Based on the CU cosmology presented so far, I don't think so. The Qliphoth is the negative reflection of the entire Tree of Life. But Yahweh would have to be pretty freakin' desperate to hide on a Qliphothic world, assuming he could even enter one. That would be like going over the prison wall and landing in a crocodile pen.