Question for Dean Shomshak

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Of course, that development would be a good excuse to transfer one's Champions campaign over to the Kult setting.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Ooooh... Yahweh returning to Elysium infected by the Qliphoth, or even possessed by one of its inhabitants! That could precipitate all manner of dark shite.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Another question from a CO player.

 

"Regarding The Ban. I've been reading The Mystic World and I wanted to know, does it affect Gods and Goddesses made AFTER it or not? I can't find anything saying it does or doesn't."

 

Thanks for answering these, Dean.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I just wonder where in the Multiverse Yahweh would think he could seek refuge from super-heavyweights like those.

Mortality. Yahweh was born as Jezeray Illyescu's daughter Jordan. Cosmics only possiss gods, not mortals.

 

Also begs the question of who might try to fill the power vacuum.

Not much of a power vacuum, with Mephistopheles sitting on the throne of Heaven, using all his skill and power to make sure nobody realizes the substitution. Because that could be bad for him.

 

Lucifer needs a more complicated answer. I may get to that later.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Another question from a CO player.

 

"Regarding The Ban. I've been reading The Mystic World and I wanted to know, does it affect Gods and Goddesses made AFTER it or not? I can't find anything saying it does or doesn't."

 

Thanks for answering these, Dean.

 

Before or after makes no difference. It's not a curse on specific individuals, it's a metaphysical brick wall with a teeny tiny hole in it. Above a certain power level, you can't squeeze through.

 

DS

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Mortality. Yahweh was born as Jezeray Illyescu's daughter Jordan. Cosmics only possess gods, not mortals.

 

 

Not much of a power vacuum, with Mephistopheles sitting on the throne of Heaven, using all his skill and power to make sure nobody realizes the substitution. Because that could be bad for him.

 

Lucifer needs a more complicated answer. I may get to that later.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I am deeply envious of the players in your campaign.

 

I must say I've been fond of your version of Mephistopheles ever since his write-up in Creatures of the Night. I used him several times in my campaigns, although after Fifth Edition and its HERO System Bestiary I based his game stats on the "Demon Prince of Guile" from that book. Gave me the power level I wanted, but fit Mephistopheles' style well IMO.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Now, about Lucifer.

 

I did not think that nailing down many details about the Descending Hierarchy was a good idea; I wanted to leave a lot of freedom for GMs, without saying that any particular accoun of devildom was true. For instance, that's why MYW and UMY say that devils lie about their rank. Hey, even if the Abrahamic tradition there are multiple stories about the origin of devils. I want them all available for GMs to use.

 

So, is there truly a supreme Devil or Satan in the Descending Hierarchy? There can be, if you want -- or not. There might be an archdevil named Lucifer -- or that might be a pseudonym of another archdevil, or even a title for whoever is most powerful at the moment.

 

Vibora Bay uses the fall of Lucifer as part of Therakiel's background. I did not coordinate UMY and MYW with the Vibora Bay authors. Well, except for Steve Long, who as line developer could have asked me to include Lucifer, Therekiel and the Fall in MYW. He didn't, and I don't think that was absent-mindedness on his part. You'd have to ask him, but I suspect his motive was the same as mine: To keep these matters loose, with lots of room for GMs to tweak the setting.

 

All the gods and spirits have their own memories of their mythic pasts. It would be normal for Therakiel to remember the Fall: That's his mythology. What matters is not whether it's true. I'd say it's that holy crap, there's a god-level entity on Earth who *somehow* escaped the Ban. (How? Why? More story possibilities here.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Now, about Lucifer.

 

I did not think that nailing down many details about the Descending Hierarchy was a good idea; I wanted to leave a lot of freedom for GMs, without saying that any particular accoun of devildom was true. For instance, that's why MYW and UMY say that devils lie about their rank. Hey, even if the Abrahamic tradition there are multiple stories about the origin of devils. I want them all available for GMs to use.

 

So, is there truly a supreme Devil or Satan in the Descending Hierarchy? There can be, if you want -- or not. There might be an archdevil named Lucifer -- or that might be a pseudonym of another archdevil, or even a title for whoever is most powerful at the moment.

 

Vibora Bay uses the fall of Lucifer as part of Therakiel's background. I did not coordinate UMY and MYW with the Vibora Bay authors. Well, except for Steve Long, who as line developer could have asked me to include Lucifer, Therekiel and the Fall in MYW. He didn't, and I don't think that was absent-mindedness on his part. You'd have to ask him, but I suspect his motive was the same as mine: To keep these matters loose, with lots of room for GMs to tweak the setting.

 

That makes good game-supplement-writing sense.

 

All the gods and spirits have their own memories of their mythic pasts. It would be normal for Therakiel to remember the Fall: That's his mythology. What matters is not whether it's true. I'd say it's that holy crap, there's a god-level entity on Earth who *somehow* escaped the Ban. (How? Why? More story possibilities here.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Geez, I forgot that supernatural beings remembering their "mythic history" as though it was real could apply to angels too. But without Lucifer's revolt Therakiel's backstory really does become a great mystery.

 

Of course the Dragon essentially is Satan in the Champions Universe, the ultimate evil... although being bound it doesn't seem to actually command the Descending Hierarchy (and the archdevils of the Netherworld might not want it freed for that reason). If Lucifer's revolt was real, I'd probably have had him be seduced and possessed by the Dragon, becoming its avatar in an assault on Elysium. Lucifer in this case would have indeed been cast into the Netherworld after his defeat; but as human belief identified him more and more closely with Satan, he was gradually forced to merge with the Dragon until he was wholly absorbed into it.

 

Perhaps some spark of Lucifer's personality survives to this day within the Dragon, along with secret knowledge PCs need -- which he'll reveal if they can free him.

 

As for Therakiel: what if the presence of a being partly of Heaven, partly of Hell, and bound to Earth, is actually a keystone of the Ban? Destroy him and the whole thing starts to unravel, so we're suddenly up to our armpits in angels, demons, and gods.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

How "canonical" is USM? At this point' date=' not very. Everything genuinely important got ported over to Ultimate Mystic and Mystic World.[/quote']

 

Guess it all depends on what one considers "important." For my part, I love having access to all the stuff from USM and the Super Mage Bestiary that didn't get the 5E CU makeover, but still fit perfectly well with the current official setting. Things like names, descriptions, and game stats for: various angels, demons of different ethnicities, Edomites and Qliphothic spirits, conurbites and modern-material elementals from Babylon, atavisms, and spirits of the Four Zoas; not to mention more interesting NPCs and organizations (Ouroboros and Hunters Moon gave our group cool story arcs), and even more dimensions (my PCs have been to the Pale Cathedral to thwart the Ravens of Dispersion, a group favorite).

 

I accept the reasoning behind the decision not to incorporate many of these things into newer books, but it's just a shame that USM and SMB are so hard for people to find these days, that few new HERO gamers get to enjoy them any more.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of all (well, most of) the stuff I wrote for USM and SMB, and I'm glad you found it fun and useful. Just about all the big ideas and major characters made it through to 5e, though -- the framework for the mystical side of the CU, that had to be there for other material to make sense.

 

It's too bad there couldn't have been a revised Mystic Bestiary to update the other critters and characters, but such is life. Now that Cryptic/DOJ allows people to write their own licensed supplements, I'm working on entirely new material that I hope people will find just as appealing.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

It's too bad there couldn't have been a revised Mystic Bestiary to update the other critters and characters' date=' but such is life. Now that Cryptic/DOJ allows people to write their own licensed supplements, I'm working on entirely new material that I hope people will find just as appealing.[/quote']

 

I have no doubt, and I look forward to seeing and buying it.

 

BTW speaking of revisions, and the Ouroboros cult, did you know that W. Jason Allen published a team of supervillain-class Ouroboros cultists in Digital Hero #4? The Chosen of Abraxas, created to meet the cult's superhero opponents on an even footing. A well-developed group inspired by your own work -- I used them to good effect.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

....

All the gods and spirits have their own memories of their mythic pasts. It would be normal for Therakiel to remember the Fall: That's his mythology. What matters is not whether it's true. I'd say it's that holy crap, there's a god-level entity on Earth who *somehow* escaped the Ban. (How? Why? More story possibilities here.)

 

Dean Shomshak

 

There's (at least) two very powerful godlike entities at work in the world. Therakiel, and the demon god of ages agone, nigh-forgotten even in the long ago Turakian Age: Krim. So entirely forgotten that he's even forgotten himself. And that's just the way that Krim likes it, because some day, the Crowns and Takofanes will work through to the end of a plan so old that it was laid down before the Ban itself, a hundred thousand years ago.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

There's (at least) two very powerful godlike entities at work in the world. Therakiel' date=' and the demon god of ages agone, nigh-forgotten even in the long ago Turakian Age: Krim. So entirely forgotten that he's even forgotten himself. And that's just the way that Krim likes it, because some day, the Crowns and Takofanes will work through to the end of a plan so old that it was laid down before the Ban itself, a hundred thousand years ago.[/quote']

 

Well, according to Dean's own The Mystic World, there's no evidence that Krim even exists any more outside of the Crowns and their wearers. I once suggested on these forums that it might be fun if Krim today were no more than a withered little imp, shrunken from his former might after more than sixty millennia without worship, sustained only by the Crowns. However, he could be planning to usurp the power of all the Crown wearers, including Takofanes, once the Archlich tracks down the Crowns and tries to bind them to his service.

 

OTOH in my games based in the Turakian Age, I decided that Krim was a guise/avatar of the Dragon, as per the religion of the Drakine race -- their "Devil," if you will. Krim gifted each of the six Drakine gods with one of the Crowns, which the gods awarded to their most faithful followers. But the Crowns corrupted their wearers as Krim intended, causing them to work great evil on the world. The Drakine gods took back the Crowns and scattered them to hidden locations across the Earth, which is why it took so much time and effort for Kal-turak to collect them.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Since I've never read The Turakian Age, I don't know what it says about Krim. Still, if you want Krim to be powerful and (potentially) active despite the Ban, the Crowns are a good excuse for this.

 

One possibility is that Krim placed himself entirely in the Crowns. You could give the Crowns an AI to represent Krim's will, with a Mind Link between them to represent that Krim possesses all the Crowns at once while remaining a single will, and an IPE Psychic Bond to the wearer. Even if Dark Seraph et al. aren't sock puppets for Krim, he could still be influencing their minds and choices beyond a generic "Be Evil."

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

There's at least one other god-level entity active on Earth, and I'm surprised no one brought him up: Mephistopheles is active and powerful enough to provide origins on short notice, as he did with Hell Rider. How does he evade the Ban? Simple. He cheats.

 

(OK, maybe that was too obvious even to need saying.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Since I've never read The Turakian Age, I don't know what it says about Krim. Still, if you want Krim to be powerful and (potentially) active despite the Ban, the Crowns are a good excuse for this.

 

One possibility is that Krim placed himself entirely in the Crowns. You could give the Crowns an AI to represent Krim's will, with a Mind Link between them to represent that Krim possesses all the Crowns at once while remaining a single will, and an IPE Psychic Bond to the wearer. Even if Dark Seraph et al. aren't sock puppets for Krim, he could still be influencing their minds and choices beyond a generic "Be Evil."

 

Dean Shomshak

 

When the Crowns come to Therakiel.... On a metagaming note, it seems to me that far too much has been made of Krim already not to make fuller use of him, while far too much rides on Therakiel. Call me crazy, but it seems like it would be hard to keep your campaign on the rails after the End of the World. (Plus, there comes a point where an homage to a key plot point for a well known novel by a fairly-well known fantasy writer turns into a simple ripoff.*) So it has always to me more practical if it turns out that Therakiel is in some way the cover identity of someone older and more sinister.

 

 

*Vagueness for multivalent spoiler potential!

Neil Gaiman's Underworld climaxes with the revelation that an angel at the bottom of the alternate/shadow/underground London of the story is actually a "halfway angel" with a sinister agenda.

 

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

There's at least one other god-level entity active on Earth' date=' and I'm surprised no one brought him up: Mephistopheles is active and powerful enough to provide origins on short notice, as he did with Hell Rider. How does he evade the Ban? Simple. He cheats.[/quote']

 

I'd always assumed that in such cases he was coming to Earth as a fairly minor avatar that didn't run afoul of the Ban. I mean, if it's normal people he's cutting deals with, even a 400-point demonic manifestation would seem pretty impressive. Get their name on the contract in blood, zap 'em with a couple hits of a 6d6 Major Transform, and Bob's your infernally-powered agent spreading mayhem.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Since I've never read The Turakian Age' date=' I don't know what it says about Krim.[/quote']

 

Very little, actually, aside from his familial relation to Kal-turak. Nothing about his true nature, goals, interactions with the gods of the age, not even when or why he created his Crowns, aside from generic "spreading evil." That was one omission from the book that disappointed me. Ironically, your own blurb about Krim in TMW said more about him than TA.

 

One possibility is that Krim placed himself entirely in the Crowns. You could give the Crowns an AI to represent Krim's will' date=' with a Mind Link between them to represent that Krim possesses all the Crowns at once while remaining a single will, and an IPE Psychic Bond to the wearer. Even if Dark Seraph et al. aren't sock puppets for Krim, he could still be influencing their minds and choices beyond a generic "Be Evil."[/quote']

 

While all of the Crowns of Krim (the wearers, that is --- it really does get awkward to keep making that distinction) have been deeply corrupted by their artifacts' influence, some, but not all, of the the villains are described as having "sold their souls" to Krim. By their textual descriptions this results in even greater power for them, but also less humanity and more profound evil in their personalities and motivations. It's interesting that while all of them are described as more or less devoted to Krim, and to Dark Seraph as the "lead Crown," only Eclipse has an actual Psychological Limitation/ Complication reflecting this.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I'd always assumed that in such cases he was coming to Earth as a fairly minor avatar that didn't run afoul of the Ban. I mean' date=' if it's normal people he's cutting deals with, even a 400-point demonic manifestation would seem pretty impressive. Get their name on the contract in blood, zap 'em with a couple hits of a 6d6 Major Transform, and Bob's your infernally-powered agent spreading mayhem.[/quote']

 

I'm with Matt on this one. A number of mythic gods have avatars on Earth with power not much greater than most superheroes (and corresponding HERO write-ups); or have empowered humans to be their champions. A good-sized Transform is potentially within their capabilities. OTOH the old (un)reliable demon-summoning ritual could allow a major demon to manifest with much more of his full power, in a confined location for a limited time. Rather than physically bringing the demon to Earth, perhaps the typical summoning circle is more like a gate between the Netherworld and Earth. The Mystic World points out that a god standing within such a gate is technically within his own dimension, and so can project all his power through it at something on the other side.

 

BTW Mephistopheles isn't the only "name" demon to have a hand in supervillain creation in the official CU. Baphomet, Lord of Strong Wrath, has become patron to the Black Paladin, increasing his already formidable powers so that he can spread more violence and evil in Baphomet's name (I know, not particularly onerous for BP). The great Belial is responsible for swapping the soul of the sorceror Josiah Brimstone with that of a demon, which Brimstone must struggle to control lest it possess his body and work evil. While Valerian Scarlet of Vibora Bay gained her magic through a bargain with a summoned demon named Kerathios.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

When the Crowns come to Therakiel.... On a metagaming note, it seems to me that far too much has been made of Krim already not to make fuller use of him, while far too much rides on Therakiel. Call me crazy, but it seems like it would be hard to keep your campaign on the rails after the End of the World. (Plus, there comes a point where an homage to a key plot point for a well known novel by a fairly-well known fantasy writer turns into a simple ripoff.*) So it has always to me more practical if it turns out that Therakiel is in some way the cover identity of someone older and more sinister.

 

 

*Vagueness for multivalent spoiler potential!

Neil Gaiman's Underworld climaxes with the revelation that an angel at the bottom of the alternate/shadow/underground London of the story is actually a "halfway angel" with a sinister agenda.

 

It occurs to me that books about the past ages of the Hero Universe have stated and illustrated that the gods themselves have mutated over time, changing their names and/or attributes as people's beliefs in them have evolved. However, the gods' own memories of their pasts change as well to conform to the new belief system. In the case of Therakiel, it wouldn't be unprecedented to say that although he remembers, and believes in, his Fall from angelic grace, his true history involves him having once been another type of being.

 

The Turakian Age in particular describes several powerful supernatural entities of varied nature who were trapped or imprisoned beneath the surface of the Earth.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Another Q.

 

"I have a question regarding the knowledge that the Imaginal Realms are known to be imaginal. Who would know that, and how prevalent would that knowledge be? Would anyone studying the Astral Plane know?"

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Best guide is probably what level of the Mystic World a character occupies. People in the Pop Occult World don't know the Imaginal Worlds really exist: They may believe in Heaven, Hell, an Astral Plane, etc., but they don't know how they actually work or how they fit together.

 

People in the serious, hard-core Mystic World might know about the Imaginal Realms and how humanity created them if they have high ratings in an appropriate KS such as Metaphysics or Occult Lore, or an 11- rating in a KS such as Other Realms of Existence.

 

People in the Magic World, such as super-mages, routinely know about the Imaginal Realms if they have any sort of KS about spirits, other planes, etc. With a KS: Inner Planes, they know in detail how the Imaginal Realms grew from mortal thought, and continue to grow.

 

(Story hook: Somebody is trying to create a myth and spread belief in it as a way to build a new province in an Imaginal Realm: a new Hell, a new district in Babylon, or the like.)

 

People in the Supernatural World vary. Just because you're a ghost, elf or vampire doesn't mean you know a lot of arcane lore outside your personal experience. Ask yourself what level of the Mystic World they'd be on if they were mortal. Also, many of the potent and knowledgeable entities in the Parterres might know in an abstract sense that they exist because humans made them up, but they don't like to think about it or insist that it's "just a theory" without any real evidence to back it up.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I could see a major mythic god deeply in denial over the origin of its kind, let alone all the competing pantheons' claims to having created the world, attempting to prove that his/her claim is the true one by unmaking the Earth and then creating a new one to replace it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

I have a question for Dean, based on an inquiry that another forumite posted:

 

Where do you see "elementals" fitting in the CU cosmology? It doesn't really specify particular elemental planes, like many other game settings do. Steve Long has mentioned such planes in passing, but without any details -- probably just following the cliche that such things exist in mystic game worlds.

[DShomshak]

Re: Question for Dean Shomshak

 

Good question. In brief, I saw elementals as synthetic entities created by sorcerers as needed, or occasionally generated by accident when powerful magic interacts with ambient elemental phenomena. (Say, a sorcerer blows a control/activation roll on a weather-control spell and generates an air elemental, or blows a spell of any sort out on the ocean and generates a water elemental. Makes Side Effects more interesting.) There are no "natural" elementals, but some of these spirits were created so long ago their origins are forgotten.

 

There are also Outer Planes with strong "elemental" character, and the entities that dwell on them could be called "elementals." But those entities have no connection to Earth.

 

If someone wanted to postulate elemental planes for the CU, I'd make them very abstract and arcane, like Yggdrasil or the Blood Tide -- accessible through the Lower Astral but difficult to reach and even more difficult to comprehend. Visiting the Plane of Fire would be like visiting, I don't know, the Higgs Field. Not "It looks like Earth but everything's made of fire." You want that, look in the Outer Planes.

 

Dean Shomshak