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Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product


Jason S.Walters

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

What worries me is that the recycling trend may lead to diminishing returns in the way of sales to existing HERO gamers. Particularly since the industry insiders keep telling us that large numbers of new gamers for HERO to tap into just aren't there.

 

Then we might as well fold up our tents and go home. Selling product only to an aging and gradually diminishing pool of old customers is not in the long run viable. Either Hero brings in new people - either new to roleplaying, or gamers who have played other systems - or it dies.

 

I favor the first option, Fantasy Hero Complete. As I've said before, I can go to my Friendly Local Game Store any night of the week and find people interested in playing fantasy games. Not all of them are interested in playing superhero games. There's a market for alternatives to the D&D/Pathfinder paradigm for the fantasy adventure genre. Give them a single book that contains everything they need to play in the same way Champions Complete does. Make sure the book mentions all the other resources available; the Bestiaries, Grimoires, setting books, etc. Give them the best of both worlds; "I only need this one book to play or even to run a campaign" but "All these other books give me plenty of options if I'm interested in them."

 

Note that you should delete certain Powers and Skills that are unlikely to be relevant, such as Faster than Light Travel and Computer Programming, both to save space and because they'd be jarring in a book meant for Fantasy.

 

But I'm planning to ask my players and other friends their opinions. They might surprise me, and either way I'll pass along what they say.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests watching to see how well Narosia does

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Then we might as well fold up our tents and go home. Selling product only to an aging and gradually diminishing pool of old customers is not in the long run viable. Either Hero brings in new people - either new to roleplaying' date=' or gamers who have played other systems - or it dies. [/quote']

 

I think that's a realistic assessment, and I can't disagree with it. I guess my departure is from the folks who have posted in the past with opinions like, "If you just do X you can really grow the fan base." Steve Long has repeatedly expressed his perception of the hobby and its fans, that there isn't a big lineup of gamers waiting to get into Hero if you just approach them right. The overall fanbase is diminishing, a few games have and will likely continue to hold the biggest share of them, and modest growth is the best-case scenario.

 

Given that, I think a balance has to be struck between redoing existing core books in such a way as to appeal to new fans, and adding new material for the existing ones. Hero Games really can't afford to neglect or alienate either group right now.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I guess I would ask, as a diehard Hero fan, in what way would buying the products benefit me? would really like to have something "new" since I already have FH6, 6E1&2, and CC (which I got because it was essentially rewritten and sort of a "new" product).

 

Part of me would like to have a Fantasy Hero 6E that is updated to refer to CC instead of 6E1&2, but that's not strictly necessary.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

If I were a new player, and I'd just paid $40 for CC, I'd be a bit unhappy to get FHC home and discover I'd paid another $40 for almost the same rules and 80 pages of howto for fantasy. That's pretty much where I'm coming from. Back in the day of FH1, it didn't seem as bad because the rules were different enough that it seemed worth it, plus it was $15 in 1986 dollars (which might be $30 in today's?). I don't have any particular special knowledge, but it seems to me that a supplement would sell better than another Complete. Also, Narosia made its Kickstarter, and might already be working the niche of FHC anyway; I'm guessing having two of it fighting against one another would make less sense.

 

Anecdotally, CC seems to be bringing in some new players and some who've been out of HERO for a long time. Narosia might end up doing the same for fantasy.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

D&D has always had 3 core books -- the Player's Handbook, the DMG, and the Monster Manual. This is considered "complete," despite not having any details about the fantasy world's religion, geology, history, politics, or pretty much anything to do with world-building. To get that, you need to buy at least one more "core" book (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, whatever), and possibly several more books.

 

I'm guessing for Fantasy Hero Complete you'd include the Hero rules (pared down so they only contain the essential ingredients for a Fantasy game, ie no Computer Programming, no FTL Travel, etc.), plus a section on races, another on "classes," another on spells, a weapons/equipment list, a dozen sample monsters, and a short introductory adventure?

 

Could all that be realistically crammed into 250 pages?

 

Follow it up with a Fantasy Hero Companion that had details about the "official" Hero world, plus more spells, more races, more classes, more monsters?

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I think that's a realistic assessment, and I can't disagree with it. I guess my departure is from the folks who have posted in the past with opinions like, "If you just do X you can really grow the fan base." Steve Long has repeatedly expressed his perception of the hobby and its fans, that there isn't a big lineup of gamers waiting to get into Hero if you just approach them right. The overall fanbase is diminishing, a few games have and will likely continue to hold the biggest share of them, and modest growth is the best-case scenario.

 

Given that, I think a balance has to be struck between redoing existing core books in such a way as to appeal to new fans, and adding new material for the existing ones. Hero Games really can't afford to neglect or alienate either group right now.

 

My experience has been that the most likely path for new players to start playing the HERO System is that they are coaxed into trying it by experienced HERO System gamers, and they find that they like it.

 

So, something like:

 

Obviously:

1) keep existing players playing

 

2) produce game product

Competing concerns:

*) offer new content to keep existing players engaged

*) keep essential rules products in print in some usable form

*) offer some kind of low-cost-to-entry path for new players

 

 

Personally, the most successful product from my perspective as a gamer and as someone who has introduced many other gamers to the HERO System was #500 HERO System Complete from 4e. I also had success with Sidekick in 5e; I gave away around 10 copies of it. The products that I found most useful to buy for myself were rules extensions such as Ultimate Martial Artist and Ultimate Skill; the second most interesting were the character write-up books just because they were fun to read...plus they had pictures!

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Some thoughts:

 

1) Overall I want to say I like Champions Complete. I'd give it 4 out of 5 stars at least, and kudos to everyone who worked on the project.

 

2) Nevertheless, I can't feel that a dry list of rules is going to work for a fantasy product. Fantasy gamers (and fantasy readers) are used to much higher production values.

 

3) Narosia was a cool concept and barely made its Kickstarter. This makes me nervous about fantasy and Hero overall.

 

4) I don't like the idea of no artwork, and trying to cram a book into an arbitrary page count. 300+ pages if you need too, but with art work and nice formatting. Reducing the rules is fine.

 

5) I also prefer to get a game world with my rules. Champions Complete was good, but I could have used about 60 more pages of game world.

 

6) The idea that (new) gamers won't buy Hero products is bullpucky. Monster Hunter International provides at least anecdotal evidence showing that idea is false.

 

7) Hero's problems are all in the advertising/marketing. It's getting the word out beyond the 200 odd folks that visit this website.

 

 

So what to do? I think you have to move beyond "Let's publish more rules" and come up with a cool product idea that people are enthusiastic to buy. Then stick your rules in that.

 

I don't think I'd purchase either product, personally. I have enough rules now where I could just "wing it" with any fantasy Hero game I'd care to run. I might be interested in a product that had "legs" (or mind-share, or popularity, or whatever it is that makes folks play it). But absent that, I'm sorry but I can't see a purchase.

 

(I hope this didn't come across as overly critical. I'm trying to provide constructive feedback. Unfortunately I see a new fantasy Hero product as very tough call right now.)

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Coming in from a slightly different tack.

 

Hero has suffered from the appearance of being insanely complicated and requiring massive tomes of intricate rules requiring a PHD to understand. People who play Hero know this is bull-pucky. But when you slap down 6E1 and 6E2 on the table, well.....

 

The question is what are you trying to achieve? Is the product aimed at getting existing players to buy it, or are you trying to get new players into the fold? Now I am not an expert and have absolutely zero knowledge of the real numbers, but I can speak an opinion based on what I see in my local area.

 

The games people are playing here, from most players to least are:

1) Fantasy (Sword Swinging type, D&D, Pathfinder, Castles & Crusades)

2) Science Fiction (Traveller, Shadowrun, etc plus Savage Worlds)

3) Modern Fantasy/Science Fiction/Horror (Call of Cthulhu, Trail of Cthulhu, White Wolf games, Other Gumshoe plus Savage Worlds)

4) Near Modern (Deadlands, Hollow Earth, etc plus Savage Worlds)

5) Superhero games (distant 5th mostly using M&M3e or Wild Talents)

 

Now when I discovered Champions Complete it was billed as a complete package to play a Superheroes game using Hero Rules. And that is what I got. The only people I know that are interested in it, are people that are thinking of trying a Supers game. And they are balancing CC, M&M3e, Wild Talents and ICONS against each other. With a few that already use Savage Worlds thinking of a Super SW game.

 

CC being complete has been a major plus in the way people look at it. They like all the rules in one place and the guidance for building a campaign.

 

Now we enter the Sword Swinging Fantasy Realm. First off, a good 90% of the people I know that play fantasy games do not play other genre's very much. They may run a character occasionally in a modern or scifi game, but overall they play D&D, C&C or Pathfinder. Even the ones that don't like D&D4e play it because it is the horse in the one horse town. Almost all of the Pathfinder players I know are disaffected D&D3.x players. These players WILL NOT BUY Champions Complete because they do not play Supers. It doesn't matter if the rules system is the same. It doesn't matter that the rules can be used to make spells. The cover of the book is about Superheroes and they do not play that.

 

They would however play something like Fantasy Heroes Complete where the cover, the interior art and more importantly the rules/text presented itself with sword-swinging Heroes and spell slinging Mages. Replacing the word "superhero" with hero, mage, thief, etc as appropriate.

 

One of the biggest problems I have had selling Hero to people since my first copy back in '82 has been Fantasy players do not want to buy a Superhero rule book plus a guide to play Fantasy. They do not want to a Superhero rule book plus a guide to play Science Fiction. They will buy a Fantasy rulebook to run/play Fantasy and then supplements to expand on the theme.

 

So in the end the question is just what are you trying to accomplish? If the aim is to get everyone to buy the Superhero Core and then expect them to buy supplements for other genres. Then nothing has actually changed and Champions Complete is simply a repackaging of the same order that 6th Ed was, or the Basic Handbook and so on.

 

If the intent is to bring new gamers into the system and showcase that it is just as good for non-supers games, then you will need to get the sword swinging fantasy gamer to want to pick up the book. And for that it needs to be a complete playable book. He is not going to buy a supplement without the rules and he is going to pass on the Superhero game. The same applies to Science Fiction.

 

Now Savage Worlds is a good example of a system that recognized they needed to get players into the system AND THEN they went to a universal core book. I have several SW rules books that contained the complete rules + setting information. Then they introduced Plot Point System. And then they eliminated the bulk of the rules in the supplements and created a core book.

 

With Hero people just do not recognize it as an easy universal system. They see it as a ungodly complicated universal system, with truth not being a factor. Just plop 6E1, 6E2, Champions, and Champs Villains 1-3 on the table and watch them run.....

 

In my opinion (once again only an opinion) the methods used to propel a Fantasy Game are not the same for a Supers Game. First off gamers that play fantasy RPG's expect a rulebook(s) that contains all the information needed. And while some games (D&D4e and Castles & Crusades) are sticking to three books, many (Pathfinder and Iron Kingdoms) have shifted to single volume core books. (An interesting aside, since SW went to a core book plus setting books, there have been zero D&D/C&C/Pathfinder style fantasy games being run locally, almost all of the SW games are Deadlands now) The second big thing for this style of gaming is that there are very few DM's that really build there own worlds when compared to the numbers that use prebuilt worlds, most DM's tend to use the 'official' game world. And that even carries to the campaigns and adventures. There are only a couple DM's in the local area that create their own material, but there are 11 groups that meet each week like clock work to play WotC's pregenerated adventures with many of the players using the included PC's.

 

Ah, the pre-generated adventure controversy. Well it really isn't a controversy. pregenerated doesn't really work well for Superhero games. Supers games are very very unique. You get three GM's that run a superhero game and ask them to build a Four Color campaign and you will get three different takes on what Four Color is, so a pre-packaged adventure is hard to make so it can easily fit into an ongoing supers game. But in a D&D style adventure (especially D&D4e) it is easy. The 4 of the regular D&D4e DM's love to run but simply do not have the time to create. They love D&D's encounters because they can show up 15 minute early, read the encounter, and run it. The players always pack the encounters games because they can either use their own PC, or just grab a pre-gen, sit down and play. Take a look at WotC, Paizo or Troll Lord and most of their product is adventures or campaigns.

 

What works for a Fantasy Line may not really work for a supers line.

 

But what is working for Fantasy is a complete targeted rules set plus a supported line of pregenerated adventures.

 

What is working for non-fantasy is a complete targeted rules set plus adventure guides such as the Plot Point system that provide directed guidance plus a series of encounters but are still flexible enough to allow the use of a GM's existing world. (if you haven't seen a Plot Point yet, I highly recommend reading one just for the structure. But make sure it is an actual plot point book and not just a setting book).

 

Here is my final summary.

 

If you are intending to get new people to play Hero, then a book such as Dungeon Hero Complete that contains all the rules (including weapons armor and a working D&D/C&C style magic system plus spells) and 'how to' setting information is the way to go. But should be followed up with high fantasy adventure support such as D&D, C&C and Pathfinder to assist the bulk of the gamers who do not have time to build and just want to play. Trying to get High Fantasy payers to buy a superhero rule book so they can buy another to actually play High Fantasy is exactly the model that Hero has been using and it has already failed before. A book like Dungeon Hero Complete aimed at a different player than the ones that currently play Hero and by definition does not have anything the existing Hero gamer doesn't already have.

 

So...

 

1) Make the Dungeon Hero Complete book complete and edit to sound like a Fantasy book, not a reprint of a superhero book (If I never heard of Champions and use Dungeon Hero Complete to play a campaign I should be surprised when I discoverer that Dungeon Hero Complete uses the same concepts and rules as Champions Complete. That realization should be a "wow this is cool" moment). Support with supplements and pregenerated adventures of the kill things and take their stuff variety. Indigantion aside, that is what the majority of mainstream paper and pencil RPG gamers want, proven by their relentless voting by their dollars.

 

2) Realize that that product will most likely not appeal to the majority of gamers on this forum, because the gamers on this forum are not the typical gamer. You have to be a persistent and talented RPG gamer if you make it through the almost impenetrable "do not play me" shields that Hero has. Most of the posts have been about "what I will buy when I already have all of Hero existing product" and not "how do we get the new gamer to pick up a copy of Dungeon Hero Complete".

 

3) Settings and Adventure should be designed for the "I have 30 minutes at most to prepare before running" player and support the primary core "classes" that appear in most games of the type today. The good thing about hero is that you will not need to create large numbers of additional classes to keep things interesting since the very rules promote change. I realize that this goes against what most of the players on this board are thinking about, but this isn't about the people that already realize what hero can do, it is about introduction new players to hero. And to be blunt, while it is my personal favorite, the Superhero gaming genre is a far far far far far far far distant last place as far as RPG interest goes.

 

4) Edit Dungeon Hero Complete so the text is high fantasy sword swinging low tech sounding. Remove or change it where ever it mentions Radios, Radar, Cars, Superheros and so on. Remove items such as skills and tech that are not of the medieval "I hack you" type. Some will need to be completely removed (Electronics, Computer Programming) but most can be left as is. Combat Driving is still Combat Driving whether in a car or a chariot, though Paramedic may be better as Healing. (Shades of the old Ed Fantasy Hero here).

 

5) Above all remember that the Supers RPG is a micro-niche of a small hobby niche. To want the average gamer to pick up Champions Complete (supers) first as a core then then supplements to run other genres is 180 degrees out of current gaming. Now it might work the other way around.

 

We know the systems and its capabilities, but we are not the target. The target is other gamers that do not play Hero and do not play Supers. Whether you go with Starhero Complete or Dungeon Hero Complete (did you notice I like the sound of Dungeon Hero Complete ;) ) you have to give them the familiar and then show them how to be creative and expand on it.

 

Anyway semi-rant over. Feel free to ignore :)

 

Spence

Cranky Old Fart

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Spence, those are very thoughtful and constructive observations, thank you for contributing them. :yes:

 

A couple of your remarks do raise a cautionary note for me, though. To whit:

 

The games people are playing here, from most players to least are:

[sNIP]

2) Science Fiction (Traveller, Shadowrun, etc plus Savage Worlds)

 

Aside from the Star HERO genre book which the company says has always sold well, Hero's sci-fi line has consistently been the worst seller of all their books.

 

Then there's this:

 

The 4 of the regular D&D4e DM's love to run but simply do not have the time to create. They love D&D's encounters because they can show up 15 minute early' date=' read the encounter, and run it. The players always pack the encounters games because they can either use their own PC, or just grab a pre-gen, sit down and play. Take a look at WotC, Paizo or Troll Lord and most of their product is adventures or campaigns. [/quote']

 

Again, Hero Games reps tell us that overall, adventures sell less than other types of books. Not just for their company, but for most other games in the field. Yes, some of the bigger names with a larger fan base can crank out generic modules on an assembly line relatively cheaply, and get a reasonable rate of return.

 

These just highlight that it's tricky to take the experiences of anyone's particular gaming community, and extrapolate from that the state of the hobby as a whole. Different areas gravitate toward different games based on their local dynamics. We've heard from many fans on these boards whose experiences of what's popular are distinctly different from yours. Even a few whose communities are very into HERO. ;)

 

But I repeat, a lot of what you offer sounds very sensible and worth considering.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Spence' date=' those are very thoughtful and constructive observations, thank you for contributing them. :yes: [/quote']

 

And thank you for reading them...

 

These just highlight that it's tricky to take the experiences of anyone's particular gaming community, and extrapolate from that the state of the hobby as a whole. Different areas gravitate toward different games based on their local dynamics. We've heard from many fans on these boards whose experiences of what's popular are distinctly different from yours. Even a few whose communities are very into HERO. ;)

 

But I repeat, a lot of what you offer sounds very sensible and worth considering.

 

Thank you again,

 

And I fully understand that my micro-slice of the micro-pie that is RPG gaming in my area may not be the same or even close to the big picture. I just thought it worth mentioning.

 

But the main focus, which I may have buried, was to point out aiming at new players and that expecting new players to buy a supers core book followed by supplements for the other genre's may not work as well as having one of the other genre's as the core book and supers being the supplement. Supers tends to be the least played of all the genres and sword swinging kill them and steal their stuff tends to be the most played in my small experience.

 

For adventures, I admit freely that I do have a blindness for them ;) , but these days I generally think of them being PDF downloads rather than print and much much more generic and shorter than most of the ones I have seen or what I think people are envisioning. Maybe I should see about whipping up one and posting it for comment. I am building up a mini-campaign and was about start building a few ready side-events to use when the players go off on a tangent and I haven't had time to prepare a custom response.

 

But in the end it isn't my call.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

1) Make the Dungeon Hero Complete book complete and edit to sound like a Fantasy book' date=' not a reprint of a superhero book (If I never heard of Champions and use Dungeon Hero Complete to play a campaign I should be surprised when I discoverer that Dungeon Hero Complete uses the same concepts and rules as Champions Complete. That realization should be a "wow this is cool" moment). Support with supplements and pregenerated adventures of the kill things and take their stuff variety. Indigantion aside, that is what the majority of mainstream paper and pencil RPG gamers want, proven by their relentless voting by their dollars.[/quote']

 

I like the idea of a stand-alone game, with a, "Powered by HERO" logo and a page in the introduction or afterword explaining that this whole game was built out of another, greater rules set. Give them the chance to learn about the larger system.

 

2) Realize that that product will most likely not appeal to the majority of gamers on this forum, because the gamers on this forum are not the typical gamer. You have to be a persistent and talented RPG gamer if you make it through the almost impenetrable "do not play me" shields that Hero has. Most of the posts have been about "what I will buy when I already have all of Hero existing product" and not "how do we get the new gamer to pick up a copy of Dungeon Hero Complete".

 

Dungeon Hero should appeal to both novice players (who use the material as-is) and experienced Hero players (who can tweak it to suit their own style).

 

3) Settings and Adventure should be designed for the "I have 30 minutes at most to prepare before running" player and support the primary core "classes" that appear in most games of the type today. The good thing about hero is that you will not need to create large numbers of additional classes to keep things interesting since the very rules promote change. I realize that this goes against what most of the players on this board are thinking about, but this isn't about the people that already realize what hero can do, it is about introduction new players to hero. And to be blunt, while it is my personal favorite, the Superhero gaming genre is a far far far far far far far distant last place as far as RPG interest goes.

 

I think that, "ease of use" is important here. The player shouldn't be overwhelmed with choices that they don't fully understand. They pick a race, an archetype ("class"), a set of stats, a few skills, some cool powers ("feats" and "spells"), some story hooks ("Complications"), and then pick out their equipment. Those who remember my Fantasy Hero Companion thread on heavy fighters will understand where I'm coming from.

 

4) Edit Dungeon Hero Complete so the text is high fantasy sword swinging low tech sounding. Remove or change it where ever it mentions Radios, Radar, Cars, Superheros and so on. Remove items such as skills and tech that are not of the medieval "I hack you" type. Some will need to be completely removed (Electronics, Computer Programming) but most can be left as is. Combat Driving is still Combat Driving whether in a car or a chariot, though Paramedic may be better as Healing. (Shades of the old Ed Fantasy Hero here).

 

We could also add some of the skills from TUS/HSS. I remember, "Armorsmith" and, "Divination." There may be others.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I like the idea of a stand-alone game' date=' with a, "Powered by HERO" logo and a page in the introduction or afterword explaining that this whole game was built out of another, greater rules set. Give them the chance to learn about the larger system.[/quote']

 

Yep

 

Dungeon Hero should appeal to both novice players (who use the material as-is) and experienced Hero players (who can tweak it to suit their own style).

 

I agree in principle. But I just don't see what a self contained version of Fantasy Hero can bring to the table of someone that owns 6E1, 6E2, Fantasy Hero 5h and 6th plus all the grimoire's, bestiaries and other supplements.

I not saying it can't, but the primary reason I have a copy of Champions Complete is I can take it to my FLGS and not give the players heart attacks ;)

 

I think that, "ease of use" is important here. The player shouldn't be overwhelmed with choices that they don't fully understand. They pick a race, an archetype ("class"), a set of stats, a few skills, some cool powers ("feats" and "spells"), some story hooks ("Complications"), and then pick out their equipment. Those who remember my Fantasy Hero Companion thread on heavy fighters will understand where I'm coming from.

 

Exactly! I wish I would have said that.

 

We could also add some of the skills from TUS/HSS. I remember, "Armorsmith" and, "Divination." There may be others.

 

Or fold them into simplified versions of existing core skills. Divination as part of the Power/Magic skill. Armorsmith and Weaponsmith as a Professional Skill.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

But I just don't see what a self contained version of Fantasy Hero can bring to the table of someone that owns 6E1' date=' 6E2, Fantasy Hero 5h and 6th plus all the grimoire's, bestiaries and other supplements.[/quote']

 

New stuff, same as any other Hero supplement. :) In more detail:

 

Grimoires: All the spells in the HSG generally follow the same pattern, and can be thought of as following the same system. In Dungeon Hero, we can have the spells follow a different pattern. We seem to be targeting D&D players with this supplement, so we can make it more like D&D's spell rules. (Or something else entirely, if we want, but let's not make it too complicated.)

 

Bestiaries: HSB does cover most of the stock fantasy opponents (except kobolds). However, it doesn't have a lot of advice on balancing encounters and it doesn't place them in a setting. (More on that later.)

 

Other Supplements: There's a lot of 4e and 5e material that hasn't been updated yet. We can also include a setting and cosmology. The archetype system hasn't been used in a fantasy supplement yet (although the concept is stolen from 6e Champions).

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Guess it's time for me to get off the fence here. :o

 

I believe Hero Games should go ahead with some sort of Fantasy Hero Complete. Hero needs to take new steps to bring in new blood, and the past model of core-book-plus-genre-supplements, while effective in its day, has been taken as far as it can go. The relative success of Champions Complete suggests that it's a model worth considering for the current times. Guaranteed success, absolutely not; but a calculated risk is worth taking, because the status quo won't carry Hero forward.

 

Nonetheless, I would like to see the game's creators get away from the "all possible things for fantasy for all people, in one book" mindset. If you truly want to create an entry-level book for fantasy, it needs to pair down the breadth and detail that have characterized the DOJ era until now. That doesn't necessarily mean just dealing with one subgenre of fantasy. Hearkening back to Fantasy Hero for Fourth Edition, that book touched on a fairly broad range of issues relevant to different styles of fantasy gaming. It just didn't beat them to death. ;)

 

There's a place for in-depth discussions of world-building, designing magic systems, and the like. But IMHO that place is not in the book you want to draw in the first-time gamer, or first-time Hero gamer. Even Champions Complete doesn't try to cover everything that its preceding genre book did for supers, which is much narrower in its assumptions and possible permutations than fantasy.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Other Supplements: There's a lot of 4e and 5e material that hasn't been updated yet. We can also include a setting and cosmology. The archetype system hasn't been used in a fantasy supplement yet (although the concept is stolen from 6e Champions).

 

The Turakian Age was meant to be Hero's "D&D-esque" setting to make it easy for gamers used to those widespread cliches to get into Hero fantasy gaming, and contains all the breadth of subjects you could ever need. However, I've seen consistent criticisms that the one book was both too overwhelmingly broad, and not detailed enough in dealing with any particular region. However, I think it would work well as a series of "Gazeteer"-style books focussing on one region at a time. Heck, TA is already divided up that way. That book and Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers provide game stats for a number of NPCs for each major area, but TA names and describes a host of other major characters, numerous significant cities and other interesting areas, and lots of conflicts, intrigues, and events. Write up more of those NPCs, add templates for region- and race-specific character types, give us more detailed maps of some of those locations, expand a few of those plot seeds into short adventures, and you'd have plenty of ready-to use material to fill a whole series of books.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Actually, I meant that it would have no *new* interior artwork, not that it would have no interior artwork. And the page count is all about affordable print costs, and is thus far from arbitrary.

 

Some thoughts:

 

1) Overall I want to say I like Champions Complete. I'd give it 4 out of 5 stars at least, and kudos to everyone who worked on the project.

 

2) Nevertheless, I can't feel that a dry list of rules is going to work for a fantasy product. Fantasy gamers (and fantasy readers) are used to much higher production values.

 

3) Narosia was a cool concept and barely made its Kickstarter. This makes me nervous about fantasy and Hero overall.

 

4) I don't like the idea of no artwork, and trying to cram a book into an arbitrary page count. 300+ pages if you need too, but with art work and nice formatting. Reducing the rules is fine.

 

5) I also prefer to get a game world with my rules. Champions Complete was good, but I could have used about 60 more pages of game world.

 

6) The idea that (new) gamers won't buy Hero products is bullpucky. Monster Hunter International provides at least anecdotal evidence showing that idea is false.

 

7) Hero's problems are all in the advertising/marketing. It's getting the word out beyond the 200 odd folks that visit this website.

 

 

So what to do? I think you have to move beyond "Let's publish more rules" and come up with a cool product idea that people are enthusiastic to buy. Then stick your rules in that.

 

I don't think I'd purchase either product, personally. I have enough rules now where I could just "wing it" with any fantasy Hero game I'd care to run. I might be interested in a product that had "legs" (or mind-share, or popularity, or whatever it is that makes folks play it). But absent that, I'm sorry but I can't see a purchase.

 

(I hope this didn't come across as overly critical. I'm trying to provide constructive feedback. Unfortunately I see a new fantasy Hero product as very tough call right now.)

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Actually' date=' I meant that it would have no *new* interior artwork, not that it would have no interior artwork.[/quote']

 

Ah, good. I consider this to be the minimum, but in this case the minimum is probably OK. Hero Games seems to have built up quite a bit of art over the years.

 

And the page count is all about affordable print costs, and is thus far from arbitrary.

 

I knew that. However, I still feel any target page count is penny wise and pound foolish. It's all about the product, and I'm concerned that some mediocre products from Hero are shrinking its customer base. It'd be better to run a Kickstarter to pay for those extra 60 pages and make a better product than it would be to allow subpar product chase away more potential customers.

 

If you can make a *great* product in 240 pages, fine. But the emphasis needs to be on making a *great* product, and then figuring out how to finance it second.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

In my opinion:

 

Going with option 2, the INcomplete Fantasy Hero will limit your market to those who already have Champions Complete or some other form of the core rules. The only other people who buy it will be those who did not notice the blurb saying it's not a complete game, and they will be angry customers who badmouth Hero to their friends. "Fantasy gamer buys Incomplete Fantasy product and then buys Champions Complete to be able to use it" is a scenario that is not going to happen.

 

So if you do this at all, I don't think it's worth doing unless you do Complete Fantasy - or whatever you call it, you will need just one book to play. Of course it should be taillored to Fantasy exclusively: rename the Paramedics Skill, cut Skills and Powers that don't fit, add some good Talents, etc.

 

That said, this may not be the right time to do this AT ALL. Narosia is currently offering exactly that, a complete game based on Hero, and my advice is to not directly compete with them right now. I also advise not viewing Narosia as too reliable a predictor in terms of sales and popularity, but I'd say wait at least six months if not a year.

 

I spent New Years Eve runnng Fantasy Hero for my game group, and they love it by the way. I asked them (3 people) about this issue, and the consensus is the same as I have been saying - zero interest in a "you gotta buy Champions Complete first" version, but something complete in one book might stand a chance "if it's simple to understand."

 

 

 

More later

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I'm out of tim

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