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Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product


Jason S.Walters

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I do agree with this. Publish a game, not a rulebook or "project." (A project is like a car you buy that the previous owner tore apart to "fix" it. You pay money for it, then you have to do a lot of work before you can enjoy it.)

 

I think I could get behind Fantasy Hero Abridged. Publish fewer rules, a reduced set designed to work with a fantasy game. Then devote the rest of the book to setting, pre-builds (including spells), NPCs/monsters, and maybe a map or two.

 

Of course don't call it "Fantasy Hero Abridged" it makes people think they need something else to play. I still like the "Dungeon Hero" title :D

 

/agree with everything else :D

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

If a newbie GM opens a Fantasy Hero Complete and then realizes that there's nothing there more than Armor, Weapons, a few spells, a monster and nothing more. The darned thing will go right back on their shelf never to be played again. If you want to attract players away from D&D you have to make it as easy to run and play as D&D.

 

Honest question: has there been an edition of D&D that has all the rules needed to play, plus a significant selection of spells and monsters, in one book? How about for Pathfinder, the hot fantasy game of the day?

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I actually thought about that, while I posted my last bit. I would be worried a bit about new players/gms complaining about bait and switch if there's only prebuilt stuff and we refer to Champions Complete for the rules on HOW to build new stuff. OTOH I have complained for years about how the Heroic Genre Games spend too much time on points. That having to buy weapons and Armor as point constructs sends the wrong message about how Hero works for the Heroic genre games.

 

It may be best for the 'Take it off the shelf and play" feel for FHC or Dungeon Hero to not include the power construction rules. Perhaps people would focus more on what the spell does and not the effects that make up the spell.

 

The more I think about this, the more I like it. Include a TON of spells, Fighting abilities/talents, assume the default Game world would be a D&D style high adventuring fantasy.

 

I'm a little on the fence about leaving the power construction rules completely out of the book. It's one of Hero's key differentiators. That said I'd definitely move them to the back of the book, and describe them more as 'advanced' or 'customization' rules.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Having not read all of the responses (y'all know that I rarely, if ever, do) I apologize in advance for toe-stepping, but I want to reiterate what KS said in the first post here:

 

If you want to sell Fantasy, you need to make a companion text to HERO 6E that carries the right look and feel, is simple enough that it doesn't make newbies reach for a new pair of shorts, and deep enough that it offers replay value and acts as a solid gateway to the fantasy genre. For me?

 

I'd repub Fantasy HERO 6th. That's me. So let's assume it isn't about me, and talk about you. What do you think about me?

 

Wait.

 

Don't answer that.

 

So let's pull from a couple of texts; the... Slayer's Fanbook and my personal favorite, the Dragon Age: Origins Collector's Edition. Why the DA:O text? Because it's a book about how to play a game you already own, about walking you through an experience you're trying to have. This is where HERO has a chance to differentiate itself. We all know that the core texts are complex and hard to get your head around, so why not streamline the whole thing?

 

What is a Fantasy experience? Race. Class. Alignment, if you're so inclined. Stat assessment, gear, monsters, dungeons, and women in refrigerators for flavor. To wit:

 

* Races. Aelves. Dwarves. Gnomes. And people with furry feet who are vertically challenged (but don't forget, Hobbit is always capitalized and owned by someone else!)

 

* Classes. Class packages, introduction to Fighter, Rogue, Healer, Wizard. Do a spread. Give fighter some space. Talk about super skills, WFs, all that.

 

* Martial Arts. We can do this. We have the text space. You don't need all the MAs, not even 1/100th. But a classic "thug" style, a "Trained Knight" style, and a Duelist/Assassin style for the Rogue would be great, and give a strong lift.

 

* Healer. How do you heal? Resurrect? Turn undead? Make some undead?

 

* Mage. Mage... you know. Mage. Pick a magic system or two.

 

A gear list, and a "magic" gear list, again, to whet the appetite. Finally, some basic monsters, an orc, goblin, dire wolf, a dragon or faerie or two, and you're off and running. Also, when building spells, I strongly recommend not including the whole build, just a text block. Damage, Range, Advantages, real cost, etc. In other words, I'm advocating selling everything "pre built."

 

"Don't wanna learn HERO? You don't have too! Here's how to just play the game. Enjoy!" I think a line of "gateway" products would help make some headway and, fantasy is always popular.

 

My... that was at least a quarter. We'll call it $0.32 with inflation and the fiscal cliff adjustment.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Honest question: has there been an edition of D&D that has all the rules needed to play' date=' plus a significant selection of spells and monsters, in one book? How about for [i']Pathfinder[/i], the hot fantasy game of the day?

 

Nope. They all have multiple books, because they all have the rules in 'em. and a cornucopia of spells. Spells take up a LOT of space. The original book that Old Man linked too might have had it all, but even in the box I remember multiple texts. My memory may be faulty, however.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Honest question: has there been an edition of D&D that has all the rules needed to play' date=' plus a significant selection of spells and monsters, in one book? How about for [i']Pathfinder[/i], the hot fantasy game of the day?

 

Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, 1991. And, anecdotally at least, it was the most popular of the BECMI D&D rulesets.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia' date=' 1991. And, anecdotally at least, it was the most popular of the BECMI D&D rulesets.[/quote']

 

Well cited. And perhaps an appropriate model for what a Fantasy HERO Complete could look like. Although D&D stat blocks take up a lot less space than HERO does. Even then, the Rules Cyclopedia tallied 304 pages.

 

(Doesn't surprise me that Aaron Allston was the genius behind it.) :king:

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Wow, lots of good ideas... but I wonder how many of them are realistic for the long haul. To begin with, a complete gaming toolkit is counter productive to continually selling supplements in and of itself (this by the way, is the thing that really sold me on Hero, lo those many years ago... I liked having to only buy a small set of books and then my imagination does the rest! Though this seems to be common among this group, it is a very rare attitude among the D&D and Pathfinder crowd). This being said, in my experience (limited it may be, though 33+ years of gaming is nearly as long as it can get) says that a large portion of the players of other systems aren't going to switch. They have great intellectual, economic and temporal investments in their chosen system. This alone provides them with almost indomitable inertia to avoid changing. I have encountered this resistance more times than not, actually almost everytime I suggested playing any system other than whatever that table had as its favorite system. I believe today, that the vast majority of new players come from contact with current players, and as such tend to the prejudices held by their peer group. So, I believe it unlikely to steal many current players from one system to another. The only chance left is to get them from the crib, so to speak. With that goal in mind, obviously a complete Fantasy Hero in a book seems to make more sense than a supplement to CC. Some of you may remember recently when I attempted to start a campaign of "championing" (pun intended) the hero system on other sites. This went virtually nowhere... many of the old hands here rightly pointed out the general resistance to Hero on other sites, and I reluctantly had to accept that I was tilting at windmills. If the resistance on other sites is any indication, breaking into a stratified and prejudiced group of gamers will be nigh impossible. In addition to that, most of those here offering advice on how to proceed are long-term gamers with the vast majority of them having at least 20 years of gaming under their belt, so their general perspective is somewhat nostalgic, and based more on memories of what it is like to be a new gamer, rather than coming into the hobby fresh, myself included in this category. So the old hats will find very little impetus to buy something that they already have in other books (except possibly from the point of view of supporting their system), and the gamers of other systems will see little reason to change their system that they have invested so heavily in. So who is left? New gamers? I have (in Oklahoma at least) found it almost impossible to get anyone new interested in playing Hero, even though I will run it, even to the point of hand-holding and building characters for them... As such, I see the available market as too small to support a system, especially in direct competition with Narosia (which I am looking forward to receiving). I have to agree with Old Man on this point, it is probably best to wait a while both to see how Narosia is received and determine if the market will bear any more. I fear that being the best game will not be enough to save it, it has to be PERCEIVED as being the best, and too much advertising water has gone under that bridge I think...

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I tend to agree with the sentiment expressed several times on this thread, of waiting until after Narosia hits before putting out a new Fantasy Hero, if only to avoid direct competition. However, while Narosia sounds like a potentially excellent product, it's a third-party book dedicated for a particular world, subset of the rules, and play style. That's not the same as the parent company's flagship for a game line, and I don't think it should be expected or assumed to stand in for one.

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Fantasy Hero first edition is 160 pages, of less dense type than CC (CC is roughly 1200 words per page, FH1 is roughly 1000, not counting art and tables). The rules portion of FH1 takes up 94 pages, leaving 66 pages for the Campaigning (about 8 pages on how to run FH) and Sourcebook (remainder used for premade packages, spells, monsters, items, &c) sections; the rules portion of CC is 160 pages, with 80 for the remainder. 

 

I would suggest putting the full CC rules text into FHC. FH1 contains 9 premade magic items (mainly "artifact and relic" type), 28 monsters (8 animals, 12 "manlike" (human, demi-human, and humanoid), 4 each classic fantasy monsters and undead), 3 racial templates (dwarf, elf, halfling), 4 "class" templates (warrior, wizard, rogue, priest) plus one additional created as an example of how to create them (viking), 30 premade spells of various types, conversion notes (to and from RuneQuest and MERP) and one sample adventure of about 15 pages, including writeups for NPCs and three sample PCs. Some of the magic item and monster pages (about 5 in total) are taken by specific rules for creating them, which would be moved into the main rule section.

 

The remainder comes to roughly 60,000 words, or 50 pages at CC density. We've got an additional 30 to play with, giving a total of about 96,000 words. FH1 was not really a lot of material to play with, but it was a very good place to start. My group brought in material from other HERO System books, and did a couple of wholesale conversions. Given the large amount of supplemental material available, I'd say an FHC (especially with a companion volume) could definitely be viable.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I am completely in favor of the complete game option, requiring Champions Complete or any other Hero core book just puts things where they currently are. Lots of good posts to explain that sentiment so I'll leave it at that.

 

Re: buying multiple sets of rules. We did this in the 80s with Danger International, Justice Inc, Fantasy Hero and of course Champions. Nobody really griped about it, the obvious is that was just how things were done then, but the other part is the books were not identical. There were perks, powers, skills and other ideas in the various books that while not critical for the specific genre were useful. If you wanted to run a pulpy golden age low powered supers game, there was actually a point to buying Justice Inc and Champions.

 

Anyway my point there is make sure there is a reason someone might want to eventually by Champions Complete, for the supers specific stuff (maybe some powers get left out that might be useful for really high powered wizards, monsters). Obviously don't do it in a way that the average player will feel that FHC is not complete, but when snipping stuff out don't feel that the core rules of Champions and Fantasy must be essentially identical with only some changes in wording / naming.

 

I agree it would be wise to include a specific game world, but wouldn't spend to much time on it. Chaosium has Magic World coming out soon. It is a basically generic high fantasy game, but they include a small piece of a game world in the rules, and have a book of adventures planned for the same world. So the rules are written to appeal to those with a world of their own in mind, but there is enough of a game world included to allow a group to jump right into a game without a lot of pre-work. I think this is a very good thing.

 

This could easily be done, I'd opt for a high fantasy, low magic world myself (aka Middle Earth) as that would remove the need for a ton of spells which take up space. I'd include some spells of course as no magic fantasy doesn't seem to be as popular, but not go the D&D route with lists and lists of spells. I'd see spellcasters more as very wise people, with healing and token magical abilities, maybe along the power level of Runequests folk magic, but with a hint of more powerful potential. That should leave room for a few playable races (elves, dwarves, hobbits etc) and some bad guys (orcs, goblins, trolls, and maybe a bad wizard to show off the potential of magic). Leave the world building to a small piece of a bigger land, just a jumping off point.

 

There are people who will want to convert it to their game world of choice, so I wouldn't get to bogged down in filling in details of a game world, just provide enough to let people jump right in and start playing.

 

If sales of the book are good it is a simple enough thing to offer reeditied versions of the valdorian age, turakian age etc or completely new stuff books (beastiaries, gazeters etc).

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

You know, while I think the ruleset needs to have a default setting just so we can have a ready-to-run ruleset, I don't know if we need to see very much about it in the book at all. It'd certainly help establish whatever 'feel' we're going for, presumably high fantasy. But I played some FH 'campaigns' that weren't set anywhere in particular, they were just a string of D&D modules that could have been in Western Shores or Ambrethel or Greyhawk or Shadow World. I'd almost rather devote the space to an introductory scenario--again, we're shooting for ready-to-run.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I'm a little on the fence about leaving the power construction rules completely out of the book. It's one of Hero's key differentiators. That said I'd definitely move them to the back of the book' date=' and describe them more as 'advanced' or 'customization' rules.[/quote']

 

The builds could be stuck in an appendix, like Talents in 6e1.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

You know' date=' while I think the ruleset needs to have a default setting just so we can have a ready-to-run ruleset, I don't know if we need to see very much about it in the book at all. It'd certainly help establish whatever 'feel' we're going for, presumably high fantasy. But I played some FH 'campaigns' that weren't set anywhere in particular, they were just a string of D&D modules that could have been in Western Shores or Ambrethel or Greyhawk or Shadow World. I'd almost rather devote the space to an introductory scenario--again, we're shooting for ready-to-run.[/quote']

 

One potentially helpful thing about the Western Shores mini-setting was that it's fragmentary enough to graft onto almost any existing D&D-esque game world that a given group might already be using.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

You know' date=' while I think the ruleset needs to have a default setting just so we can have a ready-to-run ruleset, I don't know if we need to see very much about it in the book at all. It'd certainly help establish whatever 'feel' we're going for, presumably high fantasy. But I played some FH 'campaigns' that weren't set anywhere in particular, they were just a string of D&D modules that could have been in Western Shores or Ambrethel or Greyhawk or Shadow World. I'd almost rather devote the space to an introductory scenario--again, we're shooting for ready-to-run.[/quote']

 

I agree with you, that is basically what we did too, although we did have experience with Champions which helped with the building bits.

 

It does help if you have someplace in mind, so the critters, spells, magic items have some sort of shared theme. Of course the more generic the better so they can easily be swiped for other settings. I'm imagining no more than 15-20 pages including writeups, just a nice generic fantasy world that people can easily expand if desired, but not feel it is wasted pages if they use the game for another game world. I realize in a 240 page book, that is a fair chunk, but examples are a given, so might as well make them pull double duty (example and fits the included setting).

 

I see two very common complaints about HERO (beside teh maths is so hard, that one won't go away, so I don't even bother to address it), one is it's very generic nature, the other is the idea that you have to build everything. If a Fantasy HERO Complete can cut those complaints off at the knees I think it has a good chance of getting some people who have turned their noses up at The Great Tomes of HERO a second look. With the page count it will have to be very carefully balanced, but I think it would be a mistake not to include a solid if basic beastiary, equipment list and magic section. Trying to do too much or go the 5th / 6th ed everything fantasy hero would be a disaster in my view. A neat concise game world would help keep the author focused, and help avoid the impression the game was incomplete.

 

While I really have no need for it (mountains of 1-5th ed books) I would pick up a Fantasy HERO complete if it manages to pull off the complete game in one book thing. I think it is possible, just needs a merciless editor with a sharp red pen and a very stiff riding crop. :eg:

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

The builds could be stuck in an appendix' date=' like Talents in 6e1.[/quote']

 

From Jason's first post in this thread:

 

My guess is that no matter which approach we take, I would have to have the author create a pretty massive “second” PDF containing a fair number of commonly used monsters and generic sample characters to make such a book totally usable as a stand-alone game – though this could be done pretty quickly using existing material. I could bundle this document with the PDF of the book itself and include it with purchase of the book, both through the store and through Bits-and-Mortar.

 

Essentially, our appendix for builds would be included with the redemption code for the Bits-and-Mortar PDF.

 

So, for the monsters, do a compressed description like FH 2e did in the printed book. Same with spells and so forth. Builds would be in the "appendix PDF".

 

JoeG

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I am not really advocating folding up the tent, but rather perhaps, pitching it in another location... My main point is that some groups are lost causes and as the bottom line is the only thing that keeps this floating, it is essential to focus in the right place.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Just found this discussion....I'm leaning towards strongly wanting a complete rule book, even if that means much of the book is a duplicate of something else. When the BBB came out I was happy because it gathered all the rules into one spot, and let me carry it all easily. With the rules having gotten so large now, I'd rather go back to genre books so that everything I need is under a single cover.

 

And I'd much prefer that it be a rule book, and nothing more. Use spells and creatures as examples of the rules, but don't include large bestiary, spell list, and magic item sections - 10 of each is plenty. Show me how to make my own, rather than locking me into running a fantasy world the way the authors do it. And don't provide any setting at all. An intro scenario that has a basic map is plenty, but don't bother with a game world.

 

The key here is everything that is needed, and a setting, complete with monsters, spells, and artifacts isn't needed. I'll either going to be doing one-shots where a setting is ignored, creating my own world, or using a highly detailed one already purchased. In my experience, those willing to use Hero love it because they can use it to build the game they want, and not be pigeonholed into a certain subset of the genre. The last thing I want is to find 50 pages of stuff that is only relevant for a type of setting in which I have no interest. Show me how to create spells, but don't provide a spells system - that's what the flavor books are for.

 

It was mentioned earlier that some fantasy players refuse to use book they think is aimed at superhero games. I don't have that problem, but if I think the rules are aimed at dungeon crawls or high fantasy, I'll likely never take a look at it. Make this a "Fantasy, using hero" book, not "D&D, using Hero".

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I have a recent experience with getting a group up and running with the Hero Game system. For my children and wife I could just give them access to the PDFs or Books that I bought so they could read them. But I have people who are not part of my family and while I will loan them physical books, I will not give them PDFs (too easy to copy and not pay for).

 

I would like to point them to a single book that is the "player's guide" to playing in a Fantasy Hero style game which they could buy. Said book could be either physical or PDF that doesn't matter.

 

As for a game master and group that wants to make a wholesale change to "Fantasy" Hero from D&D (and the variants) I think using FH 6e as the basis for a new book would be a good idea, with the following changes:

 

  • General comment - get rid of all of the quotes from 'source material'
  • Cut out almost all of the art unless it is very tasteful
  • Chapter 1 - Drop! This is basically 'fluff' IMO and not needed
  • Chapter 2 - Must have!
  • Chapter 3 - Keep everything except for Mass Combat (not needed in a 'basic book')
  • Chapter 4 - I would suggest condensing this material to a couple of commonly 'known' magic systems (Jack Vance, Brust's approach witchcraft vs. sorcery as found in Vlad Taltos books, etc). As for Magic Items I would provide a few rules/suggestions and some basic (classic) magic items to start out with.
  • Chapter 5 - Instead of the background material on how to create a world, provide a place. A small town and surrounding area. Provide enough information so that a GM could use it as a starting point for any campaign they want to run. Condense it down to 10 to 20 pages. Include a GM and player map of the area.
  • Chapter 6 - I am torn about this chapter because it has a lot of useful information. I think having a set of steps on how to create a character would be helpful. Example character 'archetypes' would also be very important.
  • Must have a small set of standard fantasy opponents - guards, bandits, thieves, assassins, orcs/goblins, ogres, giants, giant snake/spider, etc.

 

 

Opportunities for further products from Hero by following the above approach:

  • Mass combat - PDF supplement
  • Magic Systems book - Basically cover a whole bunch of magic systems and example spells for each system.
  • Expand on Chapter 5 with a bigger and more detailed campaign. I have no idea how Columbia Games does with it's Harn World material but having a 'place' like that to play in that has been tailored for Hero would be awesome.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

From Jason's first post in this thread:

 

 

 

Essentially, our appendix for builds would be included with the redemption code for the Bits-and-Mortar PDF.

 

So, for the monsters, do a compressed description like FH 2e did in the printed book. Same with spells and so forth. Builds would be in the "appendix PDF".

 

JoeG

 

 

 

I completely missed the possibility of a pdf for added stuff. Never mind then, put all the specific bits into a free pdf and use the space in the book for more important things.

 

I just think it is important to include a way for people to buy the book and get right into playing. A free pdf is a great way to do that.

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

Generally speaking I think everyone is converging around the idea of a single book that shows people how to play. It could have full rules or not, but it's something easily digestible, especially by new comers, but also by old timers as well. I assume you'll have to reduce the rule set to do that, something like GURPS Light, but that's a detail for the writer/editor to work out.

 

(And yes, I don't mean to literally title the book Fantasy Hero Abridged. That was just a moniker I used to get a point across.)

 

Just as an example, here's a post today by Pan Piper in the "Hero in Two Pages" thread, saying his players were freaking out over hero until they saw the "Two Pages" document. Something like the Two Page document in any new fantasy Hero product would be a big boon to everyone.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/77944-Hero-In-Two-Pages-Complete?p=2430765#post2430765

 

I would like to point them to a single book that is the "player's guide" to playing in a Fantasy Hero style game which they could buy. Said book could be either physical or PDF that doesn't matter.

 

Yes, exactly. Again I don't see how you don't condense the rules even more than Champions Complete to get a "player's guide," but again that's for other folks to worry about. Bluesguy's concept is right on the money.

 

 

  • Chapter 5 - Instead of the background material on how to create a world, provide a place. A small town and surrounding area. Provide enough information so that a GM could use it as a starting point for any campaign they want to run. Condense it down to 10 to 20 pages. Include a GM and player map of the area.
  • Chapter 6 - I am torn about this chapter because it has a lot of useful information. I think having a set of steps on how to create a character would be helpful. Example character 'archetypes' would also be very important.
  • Must have a small set of standard fantasy opponents - guards, bandits, thieves, assassins, orcs/goblins, ogres, giants, giant snake/spider, etc.

 

I like these ideas *a lot*. Again, it's spot on. This is one reason why I say I don't like arbitrary page counts and other bean counting before a product is designed. A "small town and surrounding area" will almost certainly require a map. That mean new illustrations. Surely that can be worked into the budget? BTW, I love the cover on Champions Complete. Please don't change the high quality cover!

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Re: Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

 

I have to agree with a number of posts here about consolidating the product into one, useable book.

 

I learned Champions as my first RPG over 20 years ago via the BBB. I then moved on to Fantasy Hero, before getting into AD&D and, sadly, never looking back.

 

Now I am back full force with 6th Ed, owning over a dozen rulebooks, yet havent played a game yet. I am building my own campaign world, slowly, and read my sourcebooks and forums nightly in my quest for more tidbits of insight that will aid me in my development of a world I plan on introduce to my non-HERO gaming friends. I am treading my way carefully with the balances of maximum stats, OCV vs DCV, DCs vs Defenses, etc (people like Killer Shrike have been immensely helpful, but I suspect "just doing it" will give me even more valuable experience).

 

That being said, holy cow would it have been awesome to have a pre-made Fantasy World to step into! At least for ideas - I could have handed a book or two out to friends, built some characters using guidelines from the book, and been adventuring inside of a week. As it is, with my friends who will be joining my game that have never played, I am already pointing them in the direction of CC. If I could have done that with a Dungeon Hero-type complete book, it would have been that much better.

 

As such, I think a campaign setting with races, cultural templates, a ready-to-use magic system, and then references to other books I could get for more ideas (e.g. Beastiary, Grimoire, etc) would be the best.

 

Republishing 6E Fantasy in B&W would make a lot of sense too, but as a different book than what we're talking about here. I think its interesting that this discussion is really departing from where HERO has come from and is advocating basically reinventing itself. The BBB era had a ton of era-specific books, and 6th Ed is a result of the desire to codify everything into one tome. The more I read this, the more I want to buy more and more 6E1 and 6E2 because I have a feeling I will get more use from them than anything else (ie, once my friends learn the system, hand them the big-boy books).

 

I also have experience working at the FLGS and have turned new roleplayers onto certain books. Usually it is a mom or dad with their teenager in tow, and as much as I admire it, HERO was never one I steered beginners towards. I think it would be great to have that option.

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