Out-of-print but why?

[dropblack]

So I've been following Hero System since right before the release of 5th Edition. Right after I finally got around to running my first (and sadly, only) Hero game, 5th Edition was replaced by 6th Edition. After many years I'm finally committing to getting my long-term gaming group into Hero, and I've just heard a rumor that 6th Edition books are going out of print. Is this true? If so, what is the future of Hero?

[IndianaJoe3]

The 2-volume set of 6th Edition is not in print, but is still available from Hero Games and possibly other sources. Champions Complete, which is a more-concise combination of the 6th edition rules and the Champions genre book, is available and in print.

[dropblack]

Thanks for the response. Fortunately I have the two-volume set. I'm just curious why it's out of print what that means for the future of 6th Edition.

[Andrew_A]

Thanks for the response. Fortunately I have the two-volume set. I'm just curious why it's out of print what that means for the future of 6th Edition.

 

HG let it go out of print because the colour made it too expensive to reprint. Also, the owners wanted to return to more self-contained games (e.g. Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Monster Hunters International, maybe more if sales warrant). However, you can still get the PDFs in the Hero Store, Drive-Thru RPG, RPGnow, e23, etc.

[Michael Hopcroft]

[HG let it go out of print because the colour made it too expensive to reprint. Also' date= the owners wanted to return to more self-contained games (e.g. Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Monster Hunters International, maybe more if sales warrant). However, you can still get the PDFs in the Hero Store, Drive-Thru RPG, RPGnow, e23, etc.[/quote]

 

The phenomenal growth of the PDF portion of the RPG business is probably the big story, in terms of business models, of the last decade. There will always be concerns about piracy issues, but it's become clear that any RPG company that wants to stick around has to have a strategy for PDF.

 

The advantage is that nothing has to be truly "out of print" if all other factors (such as outside licenses) are equal. It's even possible to offer older products at discounted rates, and gain revenue from things that formerly would be dead issues.

 

[Lord Liaden]

[HG let it go out of print because the colour made it too expensive to reprint. Also' date= the owners wanted to return to more self-contained games (e.g. Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Monster Hunters International, maybe more if sales warrant). However, you can still get the PDFs in the Hero Store, Drive-Thru RPG, RPGnow, e23, etc.[/quote]

 

The phenomenal growth of the PDF portion of the RPG business is probably the big story, in terms of business models, of the last decade. There will always be concerns about piracy issues, but it's become clear that any RPG company that wants to stick around has to have a strategy for PDF.

 

The advantage is that nothing has to be truly "out of print" if all other factors (such as outside licenses) are equal. It's even possible to offer older products at discounted rates, and gain revenue from things that formerly would be dead issues.

Since maintaining a PDF book on a server costs virtually nothing, companies can hang on to electronic inventory which would be prohibitively expensive to reprint in dead-tree versions. Hero Games, for example, has a number of older electronic books available for purchase for which the hardcopies are out of stock, for years in some cases.

[dropblack]

I'm just glad to hear to 6th Edition isn't going anywhere. Being a pessimist I usually assume the worse. The two-volume set does weigh a ton. Lots of dead trees there for sure.

[Lord Liaden]

Current Hero Games manager Jason Walters recently posted a pretty clear description of the present status of the company and how it plans to move forward, on the "Company Questions" sub-forum. You can read that here.

[dropblack]

Thanks! Will check that out for sure.

[oakpack4]

How do the company's personal reserves of the core books look? I'm interested in playing HERO, use deadtree only, and not interested in any of the genre games. I'm already a little disappointed that I can't have my FLGS do any orders, but if I can't have my players and future players buy the physical books whatsoever, I'd like to disengage before I get invested

[Guest dan2448]

How do the company's personal reserves of the core books look? I'm interested in playing HERO' date=' use deadtree only, and not interested in any of the genre games. I'm already a little disappointed that I can't have my FLGS do any orders, but if I can't have my players and future players buy the physical books whatsoever, I'd like to disengage before I get invested[/quote']

 

Physical copies of both volumes of the 6e Hero System core rulebooks continue to be available in the Hero Games online store, and have never been un-available there to the best of my knowledge. (Though volume 1 is available only with a damaged cover, but also at a 50% discount.) I see that vol. 2 is also currently available on Amazon and on ebay.

 

[Kehrer]

Ok, I notice something in the store called "GOOD" Hero 6th ED Character Creation. Is this some non cover damaged versions that were found?

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=240410

 

[bigbywolfe]

Ok, I notice something in the store called "GOOD" Hero 6th ED Character Creation. Is this some non cover damaged versions that were found?

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=240410

Probably want to ask that in the "company questions" or "store" section, not an obscure thread in the "list of products" section. Or message Jason or Tina directly.

[Alverant]

[HG let it go out of print because the colour made it too expensive to reprint. Also' date= the owners wanted to return to more self-contained games (e.g. Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Monster Hunters International, maybe more if sales warrant). However, you can still get the PDFs in the Hero Store, Drive-Thru RPG, RPGnow, e23, etc.[/quote]

 

The phenomenal growth of the PDF portion of the RPG business is probably the big story, in terms of business models, of the last decade. There will always be concerns about piracy issues, but it's become clear that any RPG company that wants to stick around has to have a strategy for PDF.

 

The advantage is that nothing has to be truly "out of print" if all other factors (such as outside licenses) are equal. It's even possible to offer older products at discounted rates, and gain revenue from things that formerly would be dead issues.

I realize this is probably OT, but what's the best device to read PDFs? A regular desktop? Laptop? 7" tablet? Larger tablet? Phone? etc.

[Michael Hopcroft]

[HG let it go out of print because the colour made it too expensive to reprint. Also' date= the owners wanted to return to more self-contained games (e.g. Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Monster Hunters International, maybe more if sales warrant). However, you can still get the PDFs in the Hero Store, Drive-Thru RPG, RPGnow, e23, etc.[/quote]

 

The phenomenal growth of the PDF portion of the RPG business is probably the big story, in terms of business models, of the last decade. There will always be concerns about piracy issues, but it's become clear that any RPG company that wants to stick around has to have a strategy for PDF.

 

The advantage is that nothing has to be truly "out of print" if all other factors (such as outside licenses) are equal. It's even possible to offer older products at discounted rates, and gain revenue from things that formerly would be dead issues.

It's a matter of preference with several different answers, even within the experience of one person.

 

Desktop and laptop computers were the original "native platform" of the PDF format. You will still want to store your PDFs on storage attached to one even if you read them on other devices. For keeping a lot of data and accessing it quickly the PC is still ahead of the game. the downside is that a PCs monitor will usually default to showing you only part of a page at a time. But scrolling is intuitive if you've been using PCs a lot, and the larger display and easy resizing makes reading a bit easier.

 

If you're going to be carrying your e-books around (such as to use them as a reference when going to a friend's house to play), tablets are the way to go. You can pull them out anywhere, read them on the bus or train or airplane (I strongly dis-recommend reading PDF files on a tablet while driving!), and do all sorts of things. The smaller the tablet the more likely it is you will have to re-size the text and finger-drag it around to make it readable. Still, some PDF files seem optimized for tablets, intentionally or not.

 

The screens on phones are smaller still, to the point that I would never even try to read on one.

[Kaze9999]

The phenomenal growth of the PDF portion of the RPG business is probably the big story, in terms of business models, of the last decade. There will always be concerns about piracy issues, but it's become clear that any RPG company that wants to stick around has to have a strategy for PDF. The advantage is that nothing has to be truly "out of print" if all other factors (such as outside licenses) are equal. It's even possible to offer older products at discounted rates, and gain revenue from things that formerly would be dead issues.

It's a matter of preference with several different answers, even within the experience of one person. Desktop and laptop computers were the original "native platform" of the PDF format. You will still want to store your PDFs on storage attached to one even if you read them on other devices. For keeping a lot of data and accessing it quickly the PC is still ahead of the game. the downside is that a PCs monitor will usually default to showing you only part of a page at a time. But scrolling is intuitive if you've been using PCs a lot, and the larger display and easy resizing makes reading a bit easier. If you're going to be carrying your e-books around (such as to use them as a reference when going to a friend's house to play), tablets are the way to go. You can pull them out anywhere, read them on the bus or train or airplane (I strongly dis-recommend reading PDF files on a tablet while driving!), and do all sorts of things. The smaller the tablet the more likely it is you will have to re-size the text and finger-drag it around to make it readable. Still, some PDF files seem optimized for tablets, intentionally or not. The screens on phones are smaller still, to the point that I would never even try to read on one.

 

I hope this goes commercially available soon! The perfect PDF game book library! http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/sony-13-inch-digital-paper-hands-on/

[Tasha]

Also DriveThru stuff does Print on Demand for some items. Perhaps that will give 6e1 and 6e2 a second print half life for those willing to pay the extra cash for the Dead Tree edition.

What everyone should remember is that Champions Complete IS 6e Hero. Just concentrated into a smaller book that has all of the rules, and none of the extra stuff that no one seemed to care about.

[bigbywolfe]

Except the last time I told someone CC was considered the new core book and contained all the rules it was Steve himself who piped up and said it didn't have all the rules and if it did it would be hundreds of pages longer.

 

It would be nice if the company would make an official statement about this.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Steve has repeatedly told people that CC is based on the Basic rules, and doesn't contain the full HERO System rule set. This is incorrect. CC is not based on Basic, and doesn't omit anything (at least, not intentionally), except Classes of Minds and the Absolute Effect Rule, which were both removed by editorial directive, not my choice.

 

Why he has told people this, I don't know. Perhaps he's not familiar with CC's contents, and believes it is based on Basic. But I agree that it is confusing people, and that it would be much better if the company spoke with one voice on the matter.

 

Does CC contain everything 6E1 and 6E2 contain? Of course not. But does it contain all the rules? Yes. (With the two small exceptions noted above.) Perhaps Steve and I have different viewpoints on what constitutes a "rule."

[Nadrakas]

How do the company's personal reserves of the core books look? I'm interested in playing HERO, use deadtree only, and not interested in any of the genre games. I'm already a little disappointed that I can't have my FLGS do any orders, but if I can't have my players and future players buy the physical books whatsoever, I'd like to disengage before I get invested

(Above emphasis is mine)

 

I too prefer physical copies, at least for the main books.  "Sigh"...I'll have to scrounge for the main books sooner than I wanted too, but I will purchase them.  I understand the "pdf" movement...but a physical copy is better IMO.  I have a much easier time reading them (especially if they are long...), can write in the margins (yes...write) and they are easier to share among whatever group I'm GMing (pdfs not so much...something about violating copyright laws.).

 

~ M

 

Edit: PODs are fine by me, as an alternative to purely PDF "only" products.  I'm ok with paying a little more for PODs.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Also DriveThru stuff does Print on Demand for some items. Perhaps that will give 6e1 and 6e2 a second print half life for those willing to pay the extra cash for the Dead Tree edition.

 

What everyone should remember is that Champions Complete IS 6e Hero. Just concentrated into a smaller book that has all of the rules, and none of the extra stuff that no one seemed to care about.

Many publishers, like Cumberland Games (Uresia), are using print-on-demand services like Lulu. That's where I got my physical copy of Uresia and also my copy of Strands of Fate (which makes me feel rather silly now that Fate Core is out and a lot better for most purposes).

 

A POD edition of Hero 6th Edition would probably have to be softcover and greyscale to be economically viable. Steve Jackson has gone that route for reprints of many of the GURPS supplements they originally released in color (retaining color on their PDFs).

 

Printing a large PDF file yourself is usually prohibitive in terms of ink, paper and time. With e-readers and tablets becoming so common it is rarely necessary now.

[Jazzidemus]

What I find odd is that if your going to do huge expansive volumes of rules then follow them with a condensed book, why bother with the 'Tree Killers' at all. Why bog down the System with extra stuff that we really don't need. except that you have to hire someone from the henchmans guild to lug around the milk crate of 10 rule books that weigh in at like 20 pounds each (sarcasm people...) Why get all  WotC with the RB's?

[IndianaJoe3]

What I find odd is that if your going to do huge expansive volumes of rules then follow them with a condensed book, why bother with the 'Tree Killers' at all. Why bog down the System with extra stuff that we really don't need. except that you have to hire someone from the henchmans guild to lug around the milk crate of 10 rule books that weigh in at like 20 pounds each (sarcasm people...) Why get all  WotC with the RB's?

 

Publishing the 2-volume set seemed like a good idea at the time. Then, the economy tanked. It made publishing a cheaper, single-volume edition look like a better idea.

[Nadrakas]

Ok, I notice something in the store called "GOOD" Hero 6th ED Character Creation. Is this some non cover damaged versions that were found?

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=240410

This one is "Not Available" anymore.  The " Bundle: HERO System 6th Edition: Character Creation [damaged cover] (Book + downloadable PDF)" is though.  "Sigh"...while I don't mind buying "damaged" goods, I would prefer to know exactly how badly damaged it is (I have thousands of books, and most of my books are still in very good condition, even though I use them a lot...)

 

On another note, I did some checking and the prices for "Character Creation" is out there ($170+ at Amazon).  Jeeeshhhh...a low monthly car payment for one book?  Nah, I'll pass...unless it's of Historical significance that is.

 

 

~ M

[Jazzidemus]

Publishing the 2-volume set seemed like a good idea at the time. Then, the economy tanked. It made publishing a cheaper, single-volume edition look like a better idea.

Honestly, I do understand. The game evolves and more situations come up therefore new rules need to be created to cover new material. i guess it all started with the Big Black Book of Doom (5th ed RB) then the character book then the combat book then the skills book. While it really expanded the character creation process it was rough on the wallet... but I own all 4. What can I say I am a fan..lol