Shields Up

[NuSoardGraphite]

I've been thinking about detailing shields lately and looking in the 6th edition rulesbook, it seems to me that shields do not quite have enough granularity for my tastes. I absolutely love the detail that Old Man put into his posts, breaking shields down into type by culture. I would like to take that just a bit further and add the appropriate HERO stats to each type of shield found in his list.

 

First, lets expand on what they give us on the Shields list in the Hero System rules part 2. In the rulesbook, they have shields broken down into small, normal and large types. I wish to extend this list.

 

Buckler: DCV:+0 Weight: 2kg STRmin: 0 A/R cost: 5/2 (note: Bucklers do not give a passive DCV bonus but do provide a +1 OCV to Block)

Small: DCV:+1 Weight: 3kg STRmin: 5 A/R cost: 5/2

Medium: DCV:+2 Weight: 5kg STRmin: 8 A/R cost: 10/4

Large: DCV:+3 Weight: 7kg STRmin: 13 A/R cost: 15/5

Wall: DCV:+4 Weight: 10kg STRmin: 18 A/R cost: 20/7

 

Passive use vs Active use: The shields "passive bonus" adds to the DCV of the wielder against attacks from the front and the flank of the shield arm. Characters attacking the shield wielder from other angles where the shield wielder cannot turn to face the attacker do not roll against the increased DCV. Note that turning to face one's attacker is automatic in combat unless the attacker is attacking from surprise, cannot be perceived or utilizing some form of surprise maneuver. When facing off against multiple attackers, the shield wielder must determine his or her facing and choose which of her assailants to apply the shield bonus against. In general, only 2-3 assailants will have to contend with the DCV bonus of the shield, the other assailants being in a position to by pass it. Passive use of a shield costs an amount of END equal to the STR minimum of the shield divided by 10 (or 5 depending on your game) round off to a minimum of 1 End per phase.

 

Active use of a shield consists of using the shield to block individual attacks directly. When doing so, the shield wielder gains a bonus to their OCV to block equal to the DCV bonus of the shield. Small shields gain a +1 OCV to block, Medium shields gain a +2 OCV to block and so on. This bonus makes shields very handy when using the multiple block rule. When actively blocking, the Endurance cost is equal to the STRmin/10 (or 5) and this is paid for each block attempted during the phase. Minimum of 1 End per block is observed.

 

Shields as Cover: In some campaigns, GM's only allow the DCV bonus of shields to work against hand to hand attacks. Or they have a lesser effect against ranged attacks. At the Gm's option a character can use their shield as Cover against a volley of ranged attacks aimed at their location. Essentially the character hunkers down and covers up with their shield. Only bucklers can't be used in this manner as the amount of area they cover isn't significant enough to hinder most assaults.

Small=10% cover

Medium=25% cover

Large=50% cover

Wall = 75% cover

 

Shield Wall: several characters with shields can fight together in such a way that each man provides cover for the man next to him. When fighting with a shield mate to your side you gain +1 DCV to the total passive bonus. If there is a shield wielder to either side of you, the bonus is +2. For example, two warriors using shields are fighting side by side. They decide to use the Shield Wall maneuver and each warrior gets a bonus +1 to their DCV while using this defensive style. If three warriors were fighting in this manner, each man to the outside of the shield wall would gain a +1 bonus to their DCV while the man in the middle would gain a +2 bonus to their DCV. Maintaining a Shield Wall requires a successful Teamwork skill roll from all the characters involved in the Shield Wall. Any man who fails his roll does not protect to the man next to him. (no extra bonus to those at his sides) Note that Shield Wall only adds a bonus to Passive shield use and does not apply when the shields are used actively. Also when utilizing a shield wall, characters who use their shields for cover move up 1 level on the Shield Cover table (thus, Wall shields move up to 100% cover. The Roman Scutum used in a Shield Wall configuration is legendary)

 

To be continued (ran out of time!)

[Markdoc]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism, but actually detract from it.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

[SteveZilla]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism, but actually detract from it.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

Reading about Shield Walls and being crowded in such a formation, I am reminded of the movie '300' -- The first rank only used their (IIRC) short swords, but the second rank were able to attack with a two-handed weapon part the Shield Wall using spears.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism' date=' but actually detract from it.[/quote']

 

Actually those rules are no more complicated than the normal rules for a shield. They are simply expanded (differentiated between Buckler and Small Shield, and differentiated between Large Shield and Wall Shield, which current Hero rules do not) with the addition of utilizing a shield as Cover against ranged attacks. The rules for Shield Wall already existed within the system.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

Actually, I would allow Bucklers to be used to "block" (missile deflect) projectiles like spears and arrows. I mention that Buckers provide no passive defense but provide a +1 OCV to block. This should apply to those who allow shields to be used to block missiles. What I do suggest disallowing is using a buckler as Cover, which is a kind of passive defense.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I didn't create the Shield Wall maneuver. That already existed since at least the 5th edition, if no earlier. I believe it appears in the Fantasy Hero books. I believe the justification for the additional bonus to DCV is that with a shield helping to protect one's flank, it is easier to utilize the shield to prevent attacks from getting in. I like it, thus I use it. It becomes one of the little details that characters who want to use tactics and teamwork can use to their advantage and I believe that's something that should be encouraged whenever possible. It also gives the Teamwork skill one more thing to do besides pulling off Coordinated attacks.

 

As for penalties for fighting so close together. I might provide a penalty to Dex to implement movement-based maneuvers. For example, 5 characters form a shield wall to try to advance on a horde of orcs coming across a drawbridge. They successfully stop the Orcs, but an orc shaman tosses a fire-ball spell their way. The characters need to Dive-for-Cover but are in each others way, so I may provide a penalty (-1 to -3?) for them to DFC!

 

[Old Man]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism' date=' but actually detract from it.[/quote']

 

Actually those rules are no more complicated than the normal rules for a shield. They are simply expanded (differentiated between Buckler and Small Shield, and differentiated between Large Shield and Wall Shield, which current Hero rules do not) with the addition of utilizing a shield as Cover against ranged attacks. The rules for Shield Wall already existed within the system.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

Actually, I would allow Bucklers to be used to "block" (missile deflect) projectiles like spears and arrows. I mention that Buckers provide no passive defense but provide a +1 OCV to block. This should apply to those who allow shields to be used to block missiles. What I do suggest disallowing is using a buckler as Cover, which is a kind of passive defense.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I didn't create the Shield Wall maneuver. That already existed since at least the 5th edition, if no earlier. I believe it appears in the Fantasy Hero books. I believe the justification for the additional bonus to DCV is that with a shield helping to protect one's flank, it is easier to utilize the shield to prevent attacks from getting in. I like it, thus I use it. It becomes one of the little details that characters who want to use tactics and teamwork can use to their advantage and I believe that's something that should be encouraged whenever possible. It also gives the Teamwork skill one more thing to do besides pulling off Coordinated attacks.

 

As for penalties for fighting so close together. I might provide a penalty to Dex to implement movement-based maneuvers. For example, 5 characters form a shield wall to try to advance on a horde of orcs coming across a drawbridge. They successfully stop the Orcs, but an orc shaman tosses a fire-ball spell their way. The characters need to Dive-for-Cover but are in each others way, so I may provide a penalty (-1 to -3?) for them to DFC!

Shield wall rules have been around since at least 4th. They might even have been in 1st.

 

Personally I think the biggest disadvantage to being part of a shield wall is that it would be very hard to dodge or shield block. Doing either would negate the shield wall bonus, for yourself and for the guys next to you (who might look dimly upon your cowardice).

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism' date=' but actually detract from it.[/quote']

 

Actually those rules are no more complicated than the normal rules for a shield. They are simply expanded (differentiated between Buckler and Small Shield, and differentiated between Large Shield and Wall Shield, which current Hero rules do not) with the addition of utilizing a shield as Cover against ranged attacks. The rules for Shield Wall already existed within the system.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

Actually, I would allow Bucklers to be used to "block" (missile deflect) projectiles like spears and arrows. I mention that Buckers provide no passive defense but provide a +1 OCV to block. This should apply to those who allow shields to be used to block missiles. What I do suggest disallowing is using a buckler as Cover, which is a kind of passive defense.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I didn't create the Shield Wall maneuver. That already existed since at least the 5th edition, if no earlier. I believe it appears in the Fantasy Hero books. I believe the justification for the additional bonus to DCV is that with a shield helping to protect one's flank, it is easier to utilize the shield to prevent attacks from getting in. I like it, thus I use it. It becomes one of the little details that characters who want to use tactics and teamwork can use to their advantage and I believe that's something that should be encouraged whenever possible. It also gives the Teamwork skill one more thing to do besides pulling off Coordinated attacks.

 

As for penalties for fighting so close together. I might provide a penalty to Dex to implement movement-based maneuvers. For example, 5 characters form a shield wall to try to advance on a horde of orcs coming across a drawbridge. They successfully stop the Orcs, but an orc shaman tosses a fire-ball spell their way. The characters need to Dive-for-Cover but are in each others way, so I may provide a penalty (-1 to -3?) for them to DFC!

That's a good point Old Man. Shield Wall restricts one from Dodging, or using the shield to Block. That's perfect, I'll have to remember that.

[Chris Goodwin]

I didn't notice this thread when it was started, but I think it is one of the best threads of all time. It's a mini-supplement in a thread.

[Christopher]

- Smaller shields may be +Block rather than +DCV.

6E2 58: "A character using a shield to Block may add the shields DCV bonus to his OCV for purposes of Blocking"

The same appleis to "Off-hand Defense" Talent.

 

6E2 202:

If optional "OCV penalties from Weapon lenght" are used, the shield counts as short weapon but never suffers a OCV penalty when blocking a longer weapon.

If you add in the OCV penalties for "Long weapon in tight spaces", the shield is extremely usefull as tool of Defense: No OCV penalty from relative weapon lenght and little OCV penalty for using it in small spaces.

 

 

It is already possible to use the Shield as Cover. Cover Rules and the fact that the shield is a Focus cover that (no pun intended).

I think others noted it, but it might be worth using the Shield as Armor. That is what the Roman Shield was used for (as your decirbe it) in personal combat. On the other hand it might just be extra DCV - if you don't have to cover your left side, you can focus more on the other half of your body or offense.

 

About varriatign shields keep one thing in mind:

Every +1/-1 in hero is about +10%/-10% to the Chance of success.

 

About using the Shield as weapon:

When we think of "Swordfighting" or "Fencing", we only think of attacks with the blade itself. I had some swordfighting lessons and that is a grave mistake. A warrior uses everything he has in combat. His weapon, his shield, even his hands and leg's if he get's a chance. You can trip a foe while using "Sword Fighting Martial Arts" without using the Sword itself to trip the foe. You still need it to get him into the position where you can easily trip him, wich is where the Sword plays it's role (and why you need the weapon and weapon element).

 

But I think that is already factored into OCV and DCV. What the OP ask for seems more about inlcuding the Shield in Combat Descriptions, not actually changing how the Shield works. Having the extra DCV/OCV for Block of a Shield allows you to use more agressive maneuvers (DCV penalty martial Arts, CSL to OCV or Damage) and risk not being able to actively defend.

[NuSoardGraphite]

6E2 58: "A character using a shield to Block may add the shields DCV bonus to his OCV for purposes of Blocking"

The same appleis to "Off-hand Defense" Talent.

 

Same as it's always been since even 1st edition.

 

However I don't think that was ever explicitly stated before for "Off-hand Defense" (or as it was known in 4th and 5th ed, "WF: Off-hand") though I think many GM's including myself used it in that manner.

 

6E2 202:

If optional "OCV penalties from Weapon lenght" are used, the shield counts as short weapon but never suffers a OCV penalty when blocking a longer weapon.

If you add in the OCV penalties for "Long weapon in tight spaces", the shield is extremely usefull as tool of Defense: No OCV penalty from relative weapon lenght and little OCV penalty for using it in small spaces.

 

Ah, this is a new one for me, but it makes perfect sense and if this situation had ever come up in a game without me knowing the actual rule, this is exactly how I would have handled it anyway. I have used weapon length rules before, but I don't ever remember applying the penalties for blocking with a shield against a long weapon.

 

It is already possible to use the Shield as Cover. Cover Rules and the fact that the shield is a Focus cover that (no pun intended).

 

I don't ever recall it being mentioned in any of the rules anywhere, but I've known several GM's who allowed it.

 

I think others noted it, but it might be worth using the Shield as Armor. That is what the Roman Shield was used for (as your decirbe it) in personal combat. On the other hand it might just be extra DCV - if you don't have to cover your left side, you can focus more on the other half of your body or offense.

 

I allow for the use of shields as additional armor vs certain AoE attacks like Dragon's breath and similar attacks.

 

About varriatign shields keep one thing in mind:

Every +1/-1 in hero is about +10%/-10% to the Chance of success.

 

That's why shields are awesome. shields were omni-present on the battlefield for several millennium for a reason, and that's because they were incredibly reliable at keeping their wielders alive for much longer than those who didn't use them. I feel that most RPG's don't do shields justice. HERO is one of a very few RPG's that do shields right, but even HERO dedicates very little of its text on their use, even as important as it was in ancient combat.

 

But I think that is already factored into OCV and DCV. What the OP ask for seems more about inlcuding the Shield in Combat Descriptions, not actually changing how the Shield works. Having the extra DCV/OCV for Block of a Shield allows you to use more agressive maneuvers (DCV penalty martial Arts, CSL to OCV or Damage) and risk not being able to actively defend.

 

Nothing I've detailed actually changes how shields work in the system...at all, except maybe allowing shields to be used as Cover, which they pretty much already are and is a historically supported use of the weapon. I agree with the original poster that shields are detailed enough in these games and applaud his research. It's a subject I've been wanting to tackle for some time. I would like to find the time to go through his list and give specific stats to the specific shields he listed. Hopefully I'll be able to do that at some point in the near future.

 

[Old Man]

I think it's important not to over-think this too much: I don't think it's good idea to add complexity for the same of complexity. We also want to beware restrictions/additions that don't add extra realism' date=' but actually detract from it.[/quote']

 

Actually those rules are no more complicated than the normal rules for a shield. They are simply expanded (differentiated between Buckler and Small Shield, and differentiated between Large Shield and Wall Shield, which current Hero rules do not) with the addition of utilizing a shield as Cover against ranged attacks. The rules for Shield Wall already existed within the system.

 

For example, a rule suggesting that a buckler gives no protection against ranged attacks, goes directly against contemporary accounts stating flatly that they were. Those of us growing up in the firearms age easily forget that an arrow (or even a sling bullet) in flight travels slowly enough to be seen (and deflected). I've watched people doing it and it's a heck of lot easier to deflect an arrow with a buckler than with a spear or sword. A buckler doesn't give great passive defence against missiles, but it's still much better than nothing - a very small, buckler-like shield, was after all, the primary defence against missiles for many ancient light infantry.

 

Actually, I would allow Bucklers to be used to "block" (missile deflect) projectiles like spears and arrows. I mention that Buckers provide no passive defense but provide a +1 OCV to block. This should apply to those who allow shields to be used to block missiles. What I do suggest disallowing is using a buckler as Cover, which is a kind of passive defense.

 

The shield wall idea is interesting, but the primary advantage of a shield wall is that it stopped an opponent getting at your unshielded side. One possible house rule (already mentioned above) is that a shield only protects to the front and left/front side: I already use this in my own games. However, we know in some cases that people overlapped shields (and closed up ranks) to provide greater protection - particularly against missiles - so some sort of bonus seems appropriate. On the other hand, we know also that they didn't habitually fight like that - presumably because it was too crowded - so there should be some sort of off-setting penalty.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I didn't create the Shield Wall maneuver. That already existed since at least the 5th edition, if no earlier. I believe it appears in the Fantasy Hero books. I believe the justification for the additional bonus to DCV is that with a shield helping to protect one's flank, it is easier to utilize the shield to prevent attacks from getting in. I like it, thus I use it. It becomes one of the little details that characters who want to use tactics and teamwork can use to their advantage and I believe that's something that should be encouraged whenever possible. It also gives the Teamwork skill one more thing to do besides pulling off Coordinated attacks.

 

As for penalties for fighting so close together. I might provide a penalty to Dex to implement movement-based maneuvers. For example, 5 characters form a shield wall to try to advance on a horde of orcs coming across a drawbridge. They successfully stop the Orcs, but an orc shaman tosses a fire-ball spell their way. The characters need to Dive-for-Cover but are in each others way, so I may provide a penalty (-1 to -3?) for them to DFC!

Finally looked it up--Shield Wall wasn't in 1st ed FH, it turned up in 4th.

[Ninja-Bear]

So does anyone know what sort of HA shields should have?

[Christopher]

So does anyone know what sort of HA shields should have?

6E2 is not saying anything on the mater of shields as weapons

6E2 137 however has rules for Improvised weapons. A shield is a focus and has Active Points (usually + DCV times 5) so it has a PD to use for this forumla. You could give it a suprise attack bonus.

 

But really, I think the use of a shield in combat is part of other maneuvers. Like your hands and legs your shield is unlikely to do actuall damage to most opponents, but it can be used to get into a proper position or put the enemy into a disadvantageous one.

I think "using Shield offensively during maneuvers" is already figured into the CV's: Having that extra DCV means you can risk putting all those CSL into OCV/DC. Or risk that high OCV, low DCV Martial Maneuver. Or attack even when it means you might not be able to actively defend, because you already have that DCV boost and might not need to Block.

 

If you have neither CSL nor Martial Arts to use this way, then either:

a) You are not that good of a fighter to use the shield effectively in combat (you are unable to reach your power levels OCV Cap)

Already have OCV at the campaign limit and the shield cannot improve your fighting ability any further, except for boosting your DCV (wheter you have shield or not, you are equally able to overcome an enemies defenses).

[Christougher]

So does anyone know what sort of HA shields should have?

I'd say +1d6 per DCV of the shield. +1-3 more possibly based on material/weight. It would push the Active Points of a shield up, and possibly the STR Min as well...

[Old Man]

At best I'd give a shield stats for a club of the same STR min. But I have problems with the use of most shields offensively at all. Outside of a buckler I just don't see how you could actually hit someone with a shield and do any actual damage, especially if that shield is strapped to the arm. I know the Viking shield, which was handgrip-only, could be used to 'jam' an opponent and prevent them from swinging a weapon--kind of a glorified block. I know the Greeks and Romans used shields to shove opponents. I know some Asian shields even had spikes on the outside of the boss. But I'm not aware of any commonplace, deliberate use of shields to hurt opponents. Aside from Captain America shield-jitsu, of course. Shields just seem too unwieldy to use that way and expect to have any success, especially if you're giving up the defensive capabilities of the shield to do it.

[Markdoc]

Right. Shield - even bucklers - are not actually designed for hitting people. You could do a fair amount of damage by hitting them with the edge of a medium-sized shield - especially if it has a metal edge. But still, you are swinging it with your arm, and almost always with an awkwardly-placed grip, which mandates a sideways swing or a push. Both rob you of the leverage you get with a club, sword or axe, and prevent you using much of your strength. In addition, most weapons concentrate your attack's momentum in a small space. Even a buckler (excepting those with spikes) has a far broader point of impact than a sword or axe. Basically, a shield is like a clumsy knuckleduster. The advantage of a shield bash is not that it's a good weapon: it's more that it gives you another hard thing to hit your opponent with and distract them, put them off balance or open them up to your primary weapon.

 

All of that boiled down means that I think +1d6 HA is reasonable. Bucklers are smaller, yes, but also far easier to hit fast with, or to "punch" with, which IMO counters the greater mass of a bigger shield.. All in all, it works out about the same. That can be converted to +1pip killing (so a half d6 total, in most cases) for spiked shields. That sounds about right: a shield is a far less useful weapon than a knife. You could, I guess, go to 2DC, but I really would not do more.

 

If you really want to differentiate, you could give bucklers 2DC, medium shields 1DC and large shields 0DC, to reflect the fact that it's easier (in my pretty limited experience) to actually hit someone hard with a buckler than a larger shield.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ninja-Bear]

Right. Shield - even bucklers - are not actually designed for hitting people. You could do a fair amount of damage by hitting them with the edge of a medium-sized shield - especially if it has a metal edge. But still, you are swinging it with your arm, and almost always with an awkwardly-placed grip, which mandates a sideways swing or a push. Both rob you of the leverage you get with a club, sword or axe, and prevent you using much of your strength. In addition, most weapons concentrate your attack's momentum in a small space. Even a buckler (excepting those with spikes) has a far broader point of impact than a sword or axe. Basically, a shield is like a clumsy knuckleduster. The advantage of a shield bash is not that it's a good weapon: it's more that it gives you another hard thing to hit your opponent with and distract them, put them off balance or open them up to your primary weapon.

 

All of that boiled down means that I think +1d6 HA is reasonable. Bucklers are smaller, yes, but also far easier to hit fast with, or to "punch" with, which IMO counters the greater mass of a bigger shield.. All in all, it works out about the same. That can be converted to +1pip killing (so a half d6 total, in most cases) for spiked shields. That sounds about right: a shield is a far less useful weapon than a knife. You could, I guess, go to 2DC, but I really would not do more.

 

If you really want to differentiate, you could give bucklers 2DC, medium shields 1DC and large shields 0DC, to reflect the fact that it's easier (in my pretty limited experience) to actually hit someone hard with a buckler than a larger shield.

 

cheers, Mark

I see your point and I can live with a +1 HA too. I'm going with the proven concept that something in your hand hurts your attacker more than nothing in your hand. : p

[Christopher]

I know the Viking shield' date=' which was handgrip-only, could be used to 'jam' an opponent and prevent them from swinging a weapon--kind of a glorified block.[/quote']

HSMA 243 "Bind" Maneuver/Martial Arts Element.

Works very well with two weapons. In a way you are using the Shield as a weapon

 

I know the Greeks and Romans used shields to shove opponents.

Should be covered by a Shover Maneuver while continuing to get the Shields DCV bonus. (the advantage of using your shield is that you do not have to use your hands)

 

I know some Asian shields even had spikes on the outside of the boss.

That would just be an offhand weapon that can be used as Shield.

6E2 sugest all offhand weapons should give +1 DCV (work like a Small Shield).

 

 

Basically' date=' a shield is like a clumsy knuckleduster. The advantage of a shield bash is not that it's a good weapon: it's more that it gives you another hard thing to hit your opponent with and distract them, put them off balance or open them up to your primary weapon.[/quote']

That is what I have been trying to tell you with "it is propably already figured into OCV/being able to fight more offensively".

 

Perhaps getting and/or re-reading HSMA might be an idea. The new Martial Arts Elemets/Optional Maneuvers have quite some stuff for low Fantasy Fighting. Together with the optional Rules from 6E2 it should make any Fighting pretty realistic/dangerous.

[NuSoardGraphite]

So does anyone know what sort of HA shields should have?

In general, without going to far into detail, i would break it down like this:

 

Buckler: ocv +0 damage: +1d6N

Small: ocv -1 damage: +1d6N

Medium: ocv -2 damage: +2d6N

Large: ocv -3 damage: +3d6N

Wall: ocv -4 damage: +3d6N

 

Sheilds can also have spikes and bladed edges that turns the damage from normal damage to its killing equivalent. when used to sheild bash, the damage is additive, the base damage being the weilders STR (plus martial maneuvers if applicable) when used with a spiked or bladed accessory, the damage becomes base damage with STR that exceeds the sheilds STRmin adding as normal.

[NuSoardGraphite]

One thing I've seen neglected in many fantasy games I have played in using Hero, is players who make Fighter characters who use sword and shield combo, but don't take a Martial Art with said weapons. That is an absolute waste, because a Sword and Shield Martial Art can be one of the most effective martial arts you'll ever bare witness to in HERO. Allow me to demonstrate:

 

Sword and Shield

 

Thrust (Defensive Strike) 5pts

Slash (Fast Strike 4pts

Hack (Offensive Strike) 5pts

Deflect (Defensive Block) 5pts

Return strike (Counterstrike) 4pts

Shield Blow (Nerve Strike: NND3) 4pts

Shield Push (Shove) 4pts

Brace for Impact (Root) 4pts

Overbear (Takedown) 3pts

 

Weapon Element: Use art with Sword and Shield (default)

+1 Use art with Blades

+1 Use art with Shields

+1 Use art with Axes

+1 Use art with Maces/Hammers

 

Skills:

WF: Common Melee (2)*

WF: Off-hand (3)

KS: Weapons Combat*

Defense Maneuver: 1-4 (varies)

Analyze: Fighting Style (3)

Fast Draw (3)

Two Weapon Fighting (10)

Teamwork (3)

Tactics (3)

Weaponsmith (3)

 

Special Maneuvers and Talents:

 

Shield Defense:

+2 OCV (10) Only for multiple block attempts (-1) OIF (-1/2) 4pts

With this Talent, the warrior becomes proficient at blocking multiple attacks. He or she may block 2 attacks at no penalty to his or her OCV. When combined with the bonus for blocking with a shield, this Talent makes the character extremely efficient at deflecting attacks. Note, GM's may allow the character to further develop this talent at +4 OCV for 8pts (block 3 attacks at no penalty) and +6 OCV for 12pts (block 4 attacks at no OCV penalty!) This Talent requires the character to wield a shield (any will do)

 

Powerful Bash:

Double Knockback +3/4 Naked Advantage with up to 4D6N damage (15). OIF(-1/2) X2 End (-1/2) 8pts End=3

With this Talent, the shield wielder has learned to place much of his body weight behind his blows. When he uses his shield to bash, the warrior may choose to put more force behind the blow. When he does, either use the rules for Knockback, or (if using the Heroic level rules for Knockdown...recommended) double the Body damage for determining Knockdown. Please note that this Talent will also double the distance of the Shove Martial Maneuver when successful.

 

Revenge!:

Naked Trigger advantage for up to 30 active hka, automatically resets (+3/4) 23 act

OIF(-1/2) only after a successful block (-1) 9pts end=2 per trigger activation.

With this Talent, the warrior may immediately counter attack against any opponent who he successfully blocked. usually this trigger is activated after the warrior blocks an attack with his sheild (or off hand weapon) and can thus imediately counter attack. it is not meant for a character to block with their weapon then counter with said weapon, though there is no restriction against the talent being used in that way.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Okay, there's a lot going on in this Martial Art.  The main purpose of this style is to gain the benefit of the defense bonus of the shield and how it interacts with the various maneuvers to make the warrior a difficult target.  Some specifics:

 

Thrust

This maneuver is based on the Defensive Strike maneuver.  It represents the warrior hunkering down behind the shield, lowering their center of gravity and performing a thrust from behind the safety of the shield.  With the maneuvers DCV bonus of +3, when coupled with the DCV bonus of an equipped shield, this will make the warrior a very difficult target for all but the most skilled opponents.  In addition to this, the maneuver has an OCV bonus of +1, so accuracy is not sacrificed.  The only disadvantage of this maneuver is the lack of bonus damage.

 

Slash

This maneuver is based on the Fast Strike maneuver.  It is highly offensive having a +2 OCV bonus and a +1 DC (+2D6N) bonus to damage.  This maneuver is generally used against less skilled opponents to dispatch them quickly.

 

Hack

This maneuver is based on Offensive Strike and as such, it provides a -2 OCV penalty to strike.  However, it's +1 DCV bonus assists the Shield in defending the warrior from counter attack and on a successful hit, it's +2 DC (+4D6N) damage bonus can oftentimes be a fight ender.

 

Deflect

This maneuver is base on the Defensive Block maneuver.  With it's hefty DCV bonus (+3!), DCV is not sacrificed, even if one uses the shield to actively block. This maneuver is extremely useful when facing off against multiple attackers, as the DCV stays high even when using the shield actively.  And it's +1 OCV bonus helps the shield when blocking multiple attacks.  Warriors using this style should make frequent use of this maneuver and this is often one of the first maneuvers purchased by students of this form. Note: One doesn't have to use the shield to block.  One could use their weapon to block as well, leaving the shield to continue to provide its passive DCV bonus in addition to the hefty DCV bonus of the Defensive Block.  Maintain a very high DCV and still continue to actively block at the same time!

 

Return Strike

One of the best maneuvers in the UMA, this is based on the Counter Strike maneuver.  It has both a high accuracy (+2 OCV) and a high defense (+2 DCV) and even a damage bonus (+2DC/+2D6N) so this is an all around good maneuver to use.  It can only be used in the phase after a successful block, which this style encourages, so this maneuver should be a mainstay of this form.

 

Shield Blow

This is not the same as a "Shield Bash", which is utilizing the shield with any of the above listed martial maneuvers.  This is when the warrior uses the shield in a surprise maneuver and smashes their enemy in the face or head in an attempt to distract or stun them.  This is based on the Nerve Strike maneuver with the defense being NND3 (resistant armor to a specific hit location, in this case being locations 3-4).  When used against a helmetless foe, this maneuver can send them reeling from a whack upside the head.  With enough force behind it, these blows can stun opponents.  Note that the mass of the shield being used adds to the effectiveness of the NND attack.  The Normal Damage bonus of the shield type acts as a bonus to the NND damage from the maneuver.  Every +2D6 adds +1DC to the NND attack (+1DC NND = +1/2D6)

 

Shield Push

This maneuver represents the warrior shoving his shield into his opponents midsection and shoving them away.  It is based on the maneuver Shove (of course) and uses all the rules for that maneuver as listed in the UMA or HSMA.  This is used by Sword and Shield stylists to gain distance, especially when being surrounded by multiple opponents. Very useful when fighting near cliffside or places with precarious footing.

 

Brace for Impact

This is based on the Root maneuver and represents the warrior preparing to receive a charge or brace against a push or throw maneuver.  This maneuver has the block element, and even if that fails, it still provides a STR bonus to resist being shoved, thrown or otherwise knocked to the ground.  It is common for members of a shield wall to all use this maneuver simultaneously to receive a mass of charging foes.

 

Overbear

This maneuver uses the Takedown maneuver as it's basis.  It represents swiftly smashing the shield into an opponents upper torso in an attempt to knock them down.  The goal is to attempt to knock them prone and stun them from the shield bash damage.  If this is successful, it sets the opponent up for a coup de grace in the next Phase.  This is the maneuver that is probably most commonly referred to as a "shield bash" in relation to this martial art, as that is how this technique is normally used.

 

Shield Walls

This is not a maneuver purchased by a Sword and Shield stylist, but an optional maneuver from Fantasy Hero (5th ed. page 156) that anyone with a shield can use when paired up with other shield users. Practitioners of Sword and Shield style are proficient with using a Shield Wall and many develop a special Talent that represents their proficiency with this maneuver.

 

+1 DCV (5) Usable on Others, simultaneously (+1/2) x2 subjects (+1/4) +3/4. 9 Active

OIF-shield (-1/2), Cost Endurance (-1/2), Requires a skill roll [Teamwork](-1/2) cost: 4pts.

 

With this Talent, the character becomes extremely efficient at performing a Shield Wall maneuver with other shield wielders. When a Shield Wall is formed, increase the DCV of the carrier of this Talent and the man to his left and to his right by +1 each (in addition to the bonuses from the Shield Wall maneuver itself).

For example: Leoniadas and his 300 Spartans are preparing to receive a charge of Persian warrior for the opening battle at Thermopylae. He of course takes the Shield Wall Talent. He has a man to both his left and his right, so Leonaidas gains a +2 DCV bonus from the Shield Wall maneuver. Utilizing the Talent as well, he gains a +1 DCV bonus, as well as giving that bonus to each of the men at his sides (each of them also gaining +2 DCV from the maneuver) for a total bonus of +3 to DCV from the Shield Wall. This adds to the DCV bonus for equipping a large shield (Aspis) of +3 for a total bonus of +6 to DCV! Note that at the GM's discretion, he could allow the purchase of greater than +1 DCV at a cost of 4 real points per +1. Be careful, this could make shield walls incredibly difficult to breach. I recommend allowing no more than +3.

 

In this video, we see the Spartans form a Shield Wall. When they receive the charge from the Persians, we see them perform the Brace for Impact maneuver from the style I listed. Then we see them perform the Shield Push maneuver. Finally, after the Spartans break ranks for single combat, we see Leonaidas perform a Overbear maneuver, knocking his opponent down and performing a Coup de Grace with the Hack maneuver!

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Bumping this thread because it's awesome and shouldnt be lost.

[TheQuestionMan]

Shield Edge Bash I - Chin Music.

Shield Edge Drop II - Drop on foot.

 

The film 300 really opened peoples eyes to the versitility of a Shield in combat.

 

QM

[mhd]

Individual combat, yes. But it's kinda sad that the best depiction of a shield wall still is from a movie made in '69...

[dmjalund]

have you seen the latest Hercules movie?

[Old Man]

The Troy movie did all right.