Physical Gods or Spiritual Gods?

[Steve]

This is a question that occurred to me after reading the thread on writing up gods in this forum. It is more about presentation than points.

 

How do you prefer the gods to be presented in a fantasy setting: physical gods or spiritual gods?

 

Physical gods are those who are able to appear in the mortal world and physically interact with the environment, like the Greek gods often did in legends.

 

Spiritual gods are those that never appear physically, and at the lowest end provide no proof they even exist, except for priests who act in their name and have ritual magic.

 

For myself, I prefer to have the gods be distant beings, never physically appearing in the world and instead providing signs and wonders to show they are paying attention to mortal affairs, working through their agents, like priests and priestesses. That said, I'm not opposed to having demons and their equivalent good counterparts make physical appearances, just not the "gods" of a world.

[CrosshairCollie]

Of those two choices, I would go with 'spiritual gods', though my personal preference is 'none of the above'. There are no gods, people just think there are.

[assault]

Definitely physical gods, who go around to unbelievers' houses, throw rocks on their roofs, and seduce their sons and daughters. Where do you think little PCs come from?

 

Or the other one, depending on the setting. I have a fondness for the Yazidi cosmology, which is definitely on the spiritual side.

[Pteryx]

I'm not sure here whether you're defining the difference as one of capability or of actions taken. It's possible to have a god with a body who never actually visits the mortal plane, but who could be visited by sufficiently powerful PCs.

 

There's also the question of how "real" or important bodies are. Can you truly kill a god if you beat them up in the proper way, are all bodies mere disposable avatars, are there both avatars and a "real" body, or are there neither? Heck, could a physical god have three equally "real" bodies that you have to all destroy in a short period to kill the god, lest they regrow from its spirit like a gecko's tail?

 

The "right" answer to any of this is really going to depend on the campaign, but I will say two things. First, I personally don't care for the idea for a physical god who comes across as just a really big mortal. Whether embodied or disembodied, I feel a god should have some global influence trivially available (unless we're talking the little gods of specific rivers or the like, in which case that influence should just be over their whole "territory"). Second, it probably goes without saying that fully disembodied gods are strictly GM territory; a PC defined as a god needs a body to inconvenience with at least some of their capabilities being available only "in person". -- Pteryx

[Asperion]

If i had to choose from these two i would choose the spiritual route but see no reason why there cannot be different levels that would allow for both -

 

physical would be like mega heros/villains of legend that mortals have a hard time dealing with (if at all possible) - EX: Hercules, legendary Pyro, the cyclopes.

 

spiritual would be full powered gods that can only interact through the actions of mortals - Olympians, Norse, etc.

[assault]

To expand a little... I've had settings that used both. The spiritual ones tend to feature a monotheism of sorts, although with schisms, heresies, demon-cults and so on.

 

My physical ones tend to feature gods/goddesses that are more restricted in power. In many cases they dominate a particular area, but are more limited beyond that. The obvious problem comes when you consider sun gods and the like, who aren't territorially restricted. In those cases, their attention is divided between different areas, and in any case are more focused on their main cosmic tasks - like driving the sun across the sky. In some cases, of course, a localised sun god may actually be the offspring of the 'real' sun god.

 

Beware of monotheists in this kind of setup - they don't respect your gods, and their god might be an empire builder.

[Alverant]

Since this is a fantasy setting, I would say physical in some form. Gods want worshipers and if a god wants more people to worship it then a physical manifestation would go a long way to convincing others to convert. A god that acts from a distance in secret isn't really different than a god who doesn't exist.

[Pteryx]

Since this is a fantasy setting, I would say physical in some form. Gods want worshipers and if a god wants more people to worship it then a physical manifestation would go a long way to convincing others to convert. A god that acts from a distance in secret isn't really different than a god who doesn't exist.

Even gods wanting or needing worshipers isn't something one can necessarily take for granted in just any fantasy setting, though. What if all they really need is for their domain to stay healthy, and they either see worshipers as a means to that end or don't see the point and would rather be left alone? What if people only even know about a god through divinations and their power isn't so much "granted" as exploited?

 

Even if a god does want or need worshipers, it doesn't have to be because they eat faith like the usual trope runs. Maybe the mortal realm is made of tissue paper from a god's perspective; their trying to act directly runs a very real risk of breaking reality, so it's safer to use mortals. In at least one setting I know, the problem is that Fate forces them to act out archetypal patterns, so they need people with more free will.

[massey]

I'm kind of tired of settings where every god is a spiritual, all-powerful being. In Greek myths, mortals could defeat the gods on occasion, at least at certain tasks. I like the idea of physical gods. They'll still be massively powerful in a Fantasy Hero campaign. Let's do an example:

 

Apollo

 

Str 30

Dex 27

Con 30

Body 30

Int 28

Ego 25

Pre 30

Com 20

PD 25

ED 25

Spd 6

Rec 20

End 60

Stun 60

 

Running 10"

Swimming 6"

 

Full Life Support

5 Body Regen/Turn, Regen from Death

25/25 DR

15 Mental Def

20 Power Def

 

Clairsentience

Shapeshift

Teleport

Enhanced Senses

Images

Telepathy

Change Environment

Transform (into anything)

 

All powers are no range penalty and usable through his Clairsentience.

 

Magic Bow: 4D6 RKA, AP, 0 End

 

Maybe give him a few more specific powers related to prophecy, the sun, knowledge, etc. And there you go. He'll have to be scaled up for superhero games, but against 150 point characters, he's a god. People worship him because if they make him happy, he uses his Transform and gives them a few dice of Luck. If he's unhappy, he shoots you with his arrows or sinks your ship, or turns your wife into a whore. Because he's a superpowered jackass.

[Theros]

Well...generally I don't use physical or spiritual, I use both. I use gods generally speaking following ways.

 

 

"Normal" pantheon gods. They can appear in any shape, but usually take human (physical) form, not to scare people or attract too much attention. Those are spiritual beings with ability to transform.

 

Then there are pure spirits, so called ancestors. Ancestors are powerful beings, beliefs, more they have followers the more powerful those are.

 

Then...my personal favorite, Demon Lords which can be compared to gods. Natural form is physical. More tied to physical planes.

 

The most powerful from gods is Chaos. It lives between and around the planes. It is creator and destroyer. It don't have any form,but can be in any form. It is too twisted for any being to understand. It is not evil, but not good. It can be counted as Overlord or Master of all gods.

[Markdoc]

I use a mix. In the last campaign I ran, religion was a major plot driver. The conventional religion had "distant gods" who in theory visited the world and interacted directly with humans, but who - in practice - never actually showed up (or at least hadn't done for centuries). A lot of religious practice started with stories like "Long ago, the Butterfly Girl was courted by 5 suitors in this village and she set them each 5 tasks. We honour this memory in the harvest festival, by the suitor's contest and bla, bla, bla." On the other hand, some cults worshiped what they claimed were aspects of the gods. Certainly someone - or something - occasionally answered their prayers in person. This caused a schism over exactly who or what was turning up at the ritual. At the climax of the campaign, the players ended up having to decide whether to free a being - god or demon? - from captivity, in the knowledge that doing so risked bringing down the religion that several of the PCs belonged to ...

 

It all comes down to what you prefer as a GM, and what your story needs were.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

mu

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary elaborates: Transcend the duality.

[mhd]

Really depends on the setting. For some, mythological limited deities (who manifest, walk around, beget monstrosities and demigods and can be fooled) is quite fun. My preferred "High Fantasy" way, I'd say (not the biggest fan of "racial pantheons", deities known only by one name/nature or "portfolios", though). Gods would be somewhat between their equivalents in the Marvel Universe (Thor, Herc, Snowbird, the Aquarian...) and those pesky higher powers from Star Trek (Q, Trelane, Apollo)

 

But for less high-falutin settings (i.e. most of the time, if my players let me), I'm not a fan of divine magic at all, which pretty much removes a "hard facts" proof of gods and thus I prefer to leave things more uncertain. You never know in the end.

[Markdoc]

Really depends on the setting. For some, mythological limited deities (who manifest, walk around, beget monstrosities and demigods and can be fooled) is quite fun. My preferred "High Fantasy" way, I'd say (not the biggest fan of "racial pantheons", deities known only by one name/nature or "portfolios", though). Gods would be somewhat between their equivalents in the Marvel Universe (Thor, Herc, Snowbird, the Aquarian...) and those pesky higher powers from Star Trek (Q, Trelane, Apollo)

 

But for less high-falutin settings (i.e. most of the time, if my players let me), I'm not a fan of divine magic at all, which pretty much removes a "hard facts" proof of gods and thus I prefer to leave things more uncertain. You never know in the end.

Yeah, one thing I forgot to note: I've never been a fan of the whole "divine magic/arcane magic" shtick which as far as I know originated in D&D anyway. For me, magic is as magic does. In the game setting I referred to above, multiple religions have "divine magic" which they maintain was originally taught to the first priests by the gods, but it's still just magic. Anyone of sufficient skill can learn it and practice it, if they can get access to information or teaching on it.

 

cheers, Mark

[BhelliomRahl]

I generally prefer my gods to be both spiritual and physical. I usually build a Greater god which covers a concept; Space, Creation, Fire, etc. These Greater gods are beyond physical matters and concerns, they simply exist and do as their nature dictates. Mortals have very little knowledge of them.

As part of their nature these greater gods create lesser gods which are aspects of their concepts. These lesser gods exist as a spiritual entities but are able to create avatars which can take action on the physical plane. Avatars can be immensely powerful or have no more power than a mortal depending on the whims of the god. Gods can have multiple avatars and destroying an avatar just releases the spiritual energy, A god can only be destroyed permanently while in spiritual form and if that ever happened, its essence would just return to the greater god.

 

 

[Lucius]

In Hero we presumably have a third option:

 

Mental Gods

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Physical, Mental, and Spiritual Transform into Palindromedary

[Old Man]

I'm physical.

[L. Marcus]

I'm physical.

I'm saying all the things that I know you'll like

Making good conversation

I gotta handle you just right

You know what I mean

I took you to an intimate restaurant

Then to a suggestive movie

There's nothing left to talk about

Unless it's horizontally

 

Let's get physical, physical

I wanna get physical

Let's get into physical

Let me hear your body talk, your body talk

Let me hear your body talk

 

I've been patient, I've been good

Tried to keep my hands on the table

It's gettin' hard this holdin' back

If you know what I mean

 

I'm sure you'll understand my point of view

We know each other mentally

You gotta know that you're bringin' out

The animal in me

 

Let's get physical, physical

I wanna get physical

Let's get into physical

Let me hear your body talk, your body talk

Let me hear your body talk

 

Let's get physical, physical

I wanna get physical

Let's get into physical

Let me hear your body talk, your body talk

Let me hear your body talk

 

Let's get physical, physical

I wanna get physical

Let's get into physical

Let me hear your body talk, your body talk

Let me hear your body talk

 

Let's get animal, animal

I wanna get animal

Let's get into animal

Let me hear your body talk

Let me hear your body talk

[NuSoardGraphite]

My answer is; Both. I think gods, for the most part, should stay aloof from the affairs of mankind. There's a reason why mankind (and whatever else) was given free will and that is so they don't require constant attention from the gods. However, I think that there are issues where the gods might decide to become involved. Wars, major devastation, demon incursions etc. When it looks like something will alter the balance too far one direction or another, the gods may become involved in order to insure the continuance of their creation or charge (if they didn't create the world, but were placed as its guardians). They should physically manifest rarely, but if it is warranted, they'll not hesitate. Most of their manipulation should be through signs and portents and behind-the-scenes manipulation.

[Lucius]

Let's Get Spiritual

 

We talk about the things we know are wrong and right

Ethical conversation

We have to handle things morally right

You know what I mean

 

A kosher vegetarian restaurant

Then a socially conscious movie

We have so much to talk about,

or just Meditate silently

 

Let's get spiritual, spiritual I wanna get spiritual, Let's get into spiritual

Help me learn the way you pray, the way you pray, Help me learn the way you pray

 

I've been patient, I've been good

As far as I'm Humanly able

It's not so hard when you have my back

If you know what I mean

 

I hope you understand my point of view

We trust each other metaphysically

You've got to know that you're bringing out

The Divinity in me

 

Let's get spiritual, spiritual I wanna get spiritual, Let's get into spiritual

Help me learn the way you pray, the way you pray, Help me learn the way you pray

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

[Lucius]

Let's Get Spiritual

 

We talk about the things we know are wrong and right

Ethical conversation

We have to handle things morally right

You know what I mean

 

A kosher vegetarian restaurant

Then a socially conscious movie

We have so much to talk about, or just

Meditate silently

 

Let's get spiritual, spiritual

I wanna get spiritual,

Let's get into spiritual

Help me learn the way you pray,

the way you pray,

Help me learn the way you pray

 

I've been patient, I've been good

As far as I'm Humanly able

It's not so hard when you have my back

If you know what I mean

 

I hope you understand my point of view

We trust each other metaphysically

You've got to know that you're bringing out

The Divinity in me

 

Let's get spiritual, spiritual

I wanna get spiritual,

Let's get into spiritual

Help me learn the way you pray,

the way you pray,

Help me learn the way you pray

 

Lucius Alexander Copyright

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

Hopefully that fixes the format

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a pessimistic palindromedary

[Markdoc]

Woot! The "go to new post button" now functions!

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

It's the small things, innit? ^^

[aprilfool]

Both! i wanna get physical and i wanna get spiritual!

[Vondy]

Depends what I'm trying to simulate. Ancient Norse or Greco-Roman mythos and culture?

 

Go physical. It might not be 100% accurate to ancient belief systems, but it works really well.

 

But that's not appropriate for a milieu like medieval Europe with an overarching Church.

 

You could have angles be "physical manifestations of divine influences" or some such, I guess.

 

Or simulate "he raised his eyes heavenward" with a big dice pool for Mental Illusions defined as "visions."

 

I tend to prefer to leave the actual existence of a divinity or divinities "agnostic" in my games.

 

There are religions. There are believers. Are those religions and beliefs true? Eye of the Beholder.