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GURPS and Hero System


phoenix240

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Steve "King of Ad-Hoc" Jackson *believes* in special-case rules, something that bothers me about his designs in general (c.f. Car Wars). I doubt it would even *occur* to him to create an underlying toolkit to build stuff instead of just scratch-building them with ad-hoc rules.

And while he's not running stuff directly anymore, I think it got mentioned in the (generally quite great) GURPS forum that his opinion was one of the reason why 4E had the old Magic system pretty much unchanged. But as I've said, not the only one, given ease of use and cost structure (even with a high Magery it's still more cost-effective than doing everything with Powers).

 

 

I have Thaumatology (the only gurps book I've bought in 20 years), and a chapter I haven't read talks about this. As it's the last one about building magic and the chapters go from less to more experimental, I guess it's the most sketchy and out-there and far from pregen. And probably that building magic with powers isn't in any other 4e book. Am I right?

Yes, Thaumatology basically just expands the number of ad hoc systems, although it does have a few pretty neat ones and generally serves as a good source for inspiration. It does have one chapter about conceptual frameworks for Powers as magic ("shamanism", "bardic arts" etc.) GURPS Powers has several sample builds that are definitely spells, although it has no complete tradition/system collecting that.

 

There are a few short "monographs" that present new magical systems, and some of them are based on Powers pretty directly (Divine Power) or at least integrate it (Ritual Path Magic).

 

I don't know about others, but I'll gladly criticize the default magic system.[...]Or so I remember it from 20+ years ago, plus reading part of Thaumatology recently. There were things I miss about GURPS, but magic certainly is not one of them.

Nope, I had some problems with it myself back in the 3E days. Now it just seems a bit worse, because you do have Powers in the core books and it kinda makes you feel like Tantalus, with a better, more unified approach *just* out of your grasp...

 

If I really would want to use GURPS again, I'd ditch those attempts and just pick one of the better auxiliary magic systems. For satisfying my RPG-Lego craving, HERO seems a much better fit (although I did just buy EABA2 and have to give that a try, too).

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About a year and a half ago I posted a thread in the Fantasy Hero forum entitled "What have you used?"  It seems that generally, people use everything as written except the spells; the responses on spells ranged all over the place.  I'm not sure why, but it makes sense; back to first edition FH my group used everything as written except the spells.  Anyone who played a wizard wrote up their own spells, more or less without fail, including me.  This seems to be the case regardless of edition, also.

Because some of the spells have powerlevels all over the place. The magic systems that are built like Champions powers are a turn off as well. Honestly a set of spells that replicated stuff you see in D&D/Pathfinder. That set up Arcane and Divine Magics as overall schools and then presented sub schools that some casters specialized in and others took from many spells.

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I'm mot sure I agree with that.

The book of Superpowers and the book of Spells give detailed write-ups at 3 power levels plus pre-calculates the cost for a given amount of Advantages and Limitation. You can't get more pregenerated than that without being setting specific and we all know that Hero's settings are not spectacular sellers.

Don't most of the fantasy settings published for Hero have established mafic systems and at least a sample of spells (of which ghere is a whole book)? Yet most of conversation I see is people complaining that they don't like how this or that setting does magic.

Does GURPS really have THAT much more pregen stuff than us?

 

When Hero provides pregenerated stuff people bitch about it, but everyone constantly comments on how we need more self-contained products.

The Hero system grimoirs are designed for very high active point limits well above heroic limits. I found they were not as useful as the Champions Powers (Until Super Powers Database).

The "weak spells" are often over 45 AP and this makes them only appropriate for a limited selection of game. Even the Hero Designer packs are twice as useless as it seams every single spell is it own upload with 12 options. So much for a pick list.

 

In the years we have played Hero, I do not think I have ever seen a single player use the spells. While I have used them for inspiration, they are just not "accessible" to my players from their points of view.

 

Even the Turakian Age (the only prepackaged setting we use) has a magic system that is unappealing because outside of the above mentioned high AP limits making mages OP. It is followed up by giving a free 66% discount to their powers. The end result is while I love Steve's writing in general and Hero System is my favorite system (even more than the systems I created). There is no usable fantasy setting that feels like it works out of the box unless you go third party. 

The Last Dominion was awesome, but it requires 5th edition, the kickstarter for a all in one fantasy book has failed to deliver more than a year late and the updates are more sparse than water in a desert.

 

PS: I just thought, you know a 6th edition "The Last Dominion Complete" may be a good idea. I know a lot of player who want a fully packed all in one book fantasy. To most mechanical completeness is more important than setting. But to me i want both.

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I have the Powers and Spell books and always looked at them as very bland ways to build stuff in HERO.  I always got more character building inspiration out of the villain books for Champions (like CKC) as it gave great examples of how to build complete characters that were more fleshed out than the example super team in the Champions book itself.  The villain books for Fantasy Hero were far less useful since most if not all spell caster examples just referenced the generic spell books instead of creating completely new spells.  It's a shortcut that only makes sense if HERO had more than one fleshed out spell system to reference.  I know it wouldn't be a moneymaker on its own but the power(s) that be should really consider funding some fan-created spell systems at various power levels. A very GURPS-like approach if you will.

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I use Champions power and the earlier Until Superpowers Database books to fill in powers. I look at everything in a special effect and see what things I missed. I also look for different ways to write up powers.

 

Perhaps Hero should look toward the Fans to create some decent spell systems that are appropriate for Heroic play.

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I know it wouldn't be a moneymaker on its own but the power(s) that be should really consider funding some fan-created spell systems at various power levels. A very GURPS-like approach if you will.

 

Perhaps Hero should look toward the Fans to create some decent spell systems that are appropriate for Heroic play.

 

How many magic systems have you two created? I know I have created at least half a dozen unique magic systems. there are a hundred more on the internet.

 

I think something like this would be awesome, if they let us submit the systems, then they got some professional editing and placed in a book. Obviously we as fans would have to release our financial interest. But it would be so worth it.

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Sorry, no, to start with FUDGE encrypts its numbers so FUDGE is certainly not that system.  I've had a printed copy of FUDGE on my shelf for years, and it never has persuaded me to run it.  I loathe certain people's habit of obfusticating numbers by giving them names (to make them "friendly" I guess, or whatever in the world they think they're doing) with the result that you have to memorize a table whose only purpose is to encrypt and decrypt the actual, useful, friendly information, the number.  Beyond that I wanted to like FUDGE enough to make it worth eliminating the encryption and putting the numbers in plaintext, but it didn't make me want to do it.  The little weirdnesses like the skill tree mostly convinced me that there was some underlying imbalance in the system that needed protecting with such mechanics.

More recently I've played FATE, and while the fate point economy is interesting (though I wouldn't personally prefer it as is), the underlying FUDGE mechanics didn't make me more excited than the first time I saw them.  Nothing wrong with them, it just confirmed to me that they just don't appeal all that much.

 

I think that you've missed the point of the original quote. It was about character creation, and building to concept. Go ahead and re-read my last post, especially the bolded part in the quote, because in its raw form, FUDGE can be played by just writing down a bunch of stuff, without worrying about skill trees, or balancing points (Five-Point Fudge and related systems are where the numbers usually come in). The names for the various effect levels are totally optional--go ahead and use the numeric values (we did in our games). And with the right players/GM, it all works surprisingly well in a rules light way. Several years ago, our group played Paranoia using FUDGE in this way, and it was a blast*.

 

*But the clone replacements were promptly sent, after receiving anti-rad pills.

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Thinking more on this, Hero is even more of a game system toolkit than GURPS is.

 

While many if not most folks who play Hero will use the system as presented to design the system they want, GURPS has a greater emphasis on a more old-school style of modding - you build something that you think is cool, test it out, tweak it, and hope for the best.

 

Yes, there's a robust Powers system in there, but none of the magical styles presented in any of the supplements (Magic, Thaumatology, Ritual Path Magic, Chinese Elemental Magic, etc) is based on those Power rules. Psionics as presented in the three supplements (Psionic Powers, Psis and Psionic Campaigns) is based on powers, as is the Divine Favor rules for divine intervention, but it's not nearly as ubiquitous as it typically is with Hero.

 

I definitely agree with whoever it was up there that said that every system has combats that either take four hours or half an hour, depending on who you talk to. Part of it is system mastery, part of it is the types of combats that are being run. The only system I've ever played that didn't have this sort of variability (aside from the earliest of Basic D&D) is Savage Worlds. 

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How many magic systems have you two created? I know I have created at least half a dozen unique magic systems. there are a hundred more on the internet.

 

I think something like this would be awesome, if they let us submit the systems, then they got some professional editing and placed in a book. Obviously we as fans would have to release our financial interest. But it would be so worth it.

 

Honestly we kept it to one system that has morphed a bit though the years. The Arcane and Divine systems tend to be the same.

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I'm mot sure I agree with that.

The book of Superpowers and the book of Spells give detailed write-ups at 3 power levels plus pre-calculates the cost for a given amount of Advantages and Limitation. You can't get more pregenerated than that without being setting specific and we all know that Hero's settings are not spectacular sellers.

Don't most of the fantasy settings published for Hero have established mafic systems and at least a sample of spells (of which ghere is a whole book)? Yet most of conversation I see is people complaining that they don't like how this or that setting does magic.

Does GURPS really have THAT much more pregen stuff than us?

 

When Hero provides pregenerated stuff people bitch about it, but everyone constantly comments on how we need more self-contained products.

Thats because a lot of hero's pregen stuff turns out weird and overpowered, a perfect example being the ships from Terran Empire.  or they turn out to be generic in the extreme, like many equipment and weapons writeups.  hero supplements need two things: balance and flavor.  the champions stuff tends to be well balanced for moderately powerful campaigns and have lots of flavor.  hero games has yet to master that with the other genres though.  it almost invariably ends up being something that would fit well into champions but doesnt feel appropriate for other genres,  which can be really frustrating because hero gamers have been writing up stuff balanced for other genres with tons of appropriate flavor for years.  how come the authors of the game have such a difficult time getting it right?

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My theory is that the other Genres are really huge and the Authors want to create a book that will touch on any subgenre that GM's will end up playing. So they make Super Generic books to appeal to a greater number of potential players/GM's. They follow that up with flavorless Supplements for Spells, equipment and powers. Champions now has a default Campaign that has had over a decade to mature. It's got a focus and feel. There's 2 Star hero, 4 Fantasy Hero campaigns, and only genre books for Urban Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero, and Dark "Champions".

 

That's why I am agitating for us to Pick ONE World Book for Fantasy Hero and write stuff for that book and expand it into something that people will play and have everything out of the box and ready to play at the right powerlevel. All of us grognards will be able to mutilate the campaign stuff to fit our game worlds. We shouldn't be who Hero is worrying about.

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