Why is it so slow in here?

[NuSoardGraphite]

What happened guy?  Everybody stop playing Fantasy Hero?

 

It's been pretty quiet in here lately.  This board is usually the 2cnd or 3rd most popular section after the Champions and Hero System Discussion boards.  Why has the traffic in here died down so much lately?

[L. Marcus]

... We've all finally agreed to play Pathfinder instead.

[Old Man]

Dude, that isn't funny.

 

We've all agreed to play GURPS instead.

[L. Marcus]

Aw man, raining on my joke ...

[Old Man]

Kidding aside, I think the Potential New Fantasy Product discussion has quieted traffic here a bit.  We're all kind of awaiting further developments, or at least I am.

[PaycheckHero]

If that's the one that has yet another copy of the rules (I admit, I haven't been keeping up), I'm not interested.  It would be nice to see more FH discussion, though.

[Vondy]

Whenever fantasy comes up my players immediately start house-ruling AD&D 2E.

 

There's not a lot I can do about it.

[Nolgroth]

Honestly, when I think of fantasy, my first thought is Skyrim.

 

I have been itching to work on a low magic, no immediately obvious divine power, very gritty setting. I just don't think too many people would be interested in playing in such a setting. I also don't have enough of the setting ready for play. Mostly my idea is taking the Dark Sun setting, replace the player species with the ones from Elder Scrolls (mostly for easy MapTool tokens) and tune down the magic stuff. Come to think of it, maybe not tune it down so much as alter it a little. Defilers would be more powerful in terms of raw punch but develop an unconcealable Distinctive Feature while Preservers have less power while retaining a more pure aura. Not even sure if that would work. See? Vague concepts. Oh yeah and dump the natural psionics. 

 

Combat would have all the bells and whistles to make it deadly (Hit Locations, Impairing/Disabling Wounds, Bleeding). Without the presence of immediate healing, the world might be too brutal to play in. To compensate, I would have a maximum OCV but not necessarily a DCV limit (firm limit for CSLs and raw DCV but maneuvers would allow one to exceed the limit) and the DCV would be a higher limit. The purpose would be to have high DCV actually be a defense. It's tricky though, as that might become the "go to" stat no matter what the concept is. Thinking max OCV is 10 and max DCV is 12 (possibly as high as 17 with a martial dodge maneuver). I want to emphasize tactics during combat.

 

I've a shadow of a story concept, but nothing definitive as to what the characters would do in such a setting. I've also got no idea what sort of critters would be wandering the wilds of "Gritty Desert with Little Metal Land." I could pull from Dark Sun and possibly even the Fallout 3/New Vegas games. I just would want to avoid the "module of the week" feel to the game.

 

Other elements that crossed my mind during the thought processes:

• There was once an active god-being that decided to abandon the world. I have this whole scene in my brain about that. I just don't know the reasons. At any rate, the rock of a world was left to its own devices. Perhaps a post-Rapture event.
• Instead of healing magic, change the ratio at which Recovery applies to Body healing. Instead of Rec per month, maybe Rec per two weeks. Not sure if that would render the gritty significantly less so. Other ideas would be Rec x1.5 per month.
• As difficult as it would be, incorporate some sort of Aes Sedai/Warder bond into the game. Not sure why, but I like the concept of highly trained warriors being the magically bound bodyguards of a class of female magic users.
• The campaign setting would be during some great event or possible cataclysm.
• Magic, no matter how useful, would be no better than a solid weapon in terms of damage. Healing, if allowed at all, would be extremely limited. Thinking 10-15 active points in powers and Healing would be a one time event using the simplified healing rules. Attack powers would be a maximum of 1d6 Killing.
• Barter over coinage. 
• Large, sprawling cities like the ones in Conan the Barbarian. 

So there are options to throw out for discussion. Should I make a new topic to see how people would dissect such a project?

[Tasha]

When you say fantasy to most people they want to play D&D. They can usually be talked into playing Pathfinder which is similar enough that it passes as D&D. You can probably talk them into a game of Champions. You can't talk them into playing another system esp one where they have to build their spells.

[TheQuestionMan]

I tried to play Pathfinder, but got lost. 

[L. Marcus]

I've been thinking about starting an Original Fantasy Character thread, where anyone can post -- PCs and NPCs. You think that would fly?

[Lucius]

I've been thinking about starting an Original Fantasy Character thread, where anyone can post -- PCs and NPCs. You think that would fly?

Not sure. I think a lot of us, if we have a character to show off, like to start a new thread just for that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Lucius is a narcissist like that

[PaycheckHero]

When you say fantasy to most people they want to play D&D.

I've noticed people using it that way about playing Fantasy Hero. I find it odd enough that anyone would want to use hero to re-implement D&D, and even odder that if I say "high fantasy" it means a D&D like game.

 

You can't talk them into playing another system esp one where they have to build their spells.

Not having a D&D-like magic system is one of attractions of FH, so as a special case of the above I'm puzzled why people would use hero to throw away its better features so as to ape D&D magic.

 

I guess I was lucky in that (1) my ideas about fantasy were not shaped by D&D, and (2) I started playing FH with people who didn't try to make it play like D&D.

[Lucius]

 

It used to be you could get someone into Hero by asking "what things have you wanted to do but found that in D&D you couldn't?"

 

It might be a wizard with a sword like Gandalf or a powerful fighter who runs around in a loincloth like Conan or someone who can move silently and hide in shadows and climb walls WITHOUT being a thief or someone who can heal without having to be some kind of priest or any number of other concepts.

 

D&D has gotten better in a lot of ways and the old discontents and irritants aren't as sharp as they used to be. They're not entirely gone either but arguing someone out of a familiar and attractive but slightly confining garment is not as easy as arguing them out of a familiar and attractive straitjacket.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I need to work on my arguments. That's another project today, after laundry.

[Nolgroth]

I've been thinking about starting an Original Fantasy Character thread, where anyone can post -- PCs and NPCs. You think that would fly?

I could post conversions of my Skyrim characters.

 

Come to think of it, is there a forum friendly HD export format for these newer forums?

[Vondy]

When you say fantasy to most people they want to play D&D. They can usually be talked into playing Pathfinder which is similar enough that it passes as D&D. You can probably talk them into a game of Champions. You can't talk them into playing another system esp one where they have to build their spells.

 

I can get my players to do contemporary urban fantasy, pulp with fantasy elements, mythic antiquity stories, or or even a historical fantasy in the real-world insofar as its set in the renaissance and onward. But if you mention medieval or dark ages, or knights and wizards, then suddenly fantasy must be a certain kind of arthurian-tolkein hybrid with demi-humans, spell-slingers, and magic swords. And for that, D&D and Pathfinder are the systems of choice. I do think the need to design a spell-system and the spells from the ground up is one key element. There are probably others, as well.

[Tasha]

I am starting to think that the old toolkit approach to selling Hero might be wearing thin. That gamers today don't have the time or motivation to spend a ton of time using a game system to create low level things like spells and abilities. Perhaps the GURPS approach of having everything written up for a genre is the best way to go. The nice twist is that with Hero we can show people how to modify stuff to fit their tastes. Something that no other game system does really well.

That means that when Hero releases books they should be looking at marketing a game world more than just a whole Genre book. That does mean setting clear power levels and having PC examples and NPC examples that fit within that Powerlevel. It also means that stuff like Spells, Special Abilities, Equipment etc should be written up and 'ready to go". Yes all of us grognards will complain about how we have to buy the rules AGAIN, but this is about gaining new players. Perhaps even going as far as to organizing a RPGA kind of group with published adventures that new and experienced GM's can run at their local FLGS and conventions.

I do think that simulating D&D/Pathfinder is the way to go to gain new players. Show them that Hero can handle the kind of play that D&D does and can do more esp with character customization.

[NuSoardGraphite]

When you say fantasy to most people they want to play D&D. They can usually be talked into playing Pathfinder which is similar enough that it passes as D&D. You can probably talk them into a game of Champions. You can't talk them into playing another system esp one where they have to build their spells.

I convince people to play HERO (as other than Champions) all the time.  I usually get them with "What have you always wanted to play that D&D (Pathfinder, Palladium, Earthdawn, whatever) wouldn't let you play?"  Then show them how to make exactly what they've described to me.  After that, its usually just a matter of a few fun game sessions and they'll be hooked.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I've noticed people using it that way about playing Fantasy Hero. I find it odd enough that anyone would want to use hero to re-implement D&D, and even odder that if I say "high fantasy" it means a D&D like game.

 

 

Not having a D&D-like magic system is one of attractions of FH, so as a special case of the above I'm puzzled why people would use hero to throw away its better features so as to ape D&D magic.

 

I guess I was lucky in that (1) my ideas about fantasy were not shaped by D&D, and (2) I started playing FH with people who didn't try to make it play like D&D.

D&D fantasy was in turn based on Lord of the Rings, which is the "quintessential fantasy world" in the mind of most fans of fantasy fiction.  Basing your Fantasy Hero efforts in a realm that somewhat resembles a D&D setting brings that level of familiarity to the players who are used to D&D and allows a more comfortable transition.  After running a campaign or two with a D&D type fantasy setting, you can then segue into a non-traditional fantasy setting and your players, who now have more experience with Hero and are no longer intimidated by it..will be more likely to give your unique campaign setting a try.  I did this with my previous group where we ran a traditional Fantasy game, then after the players became more familiar with the system, I ran a homebrew Sengoku era Samurai/Ninja game using Hero, which my players absolutely loved.  You use a D&D type campaign as the gateway, then sneak your own stuff in there after the players are hooked on the freedom that Hero gives them.

[PaycheckHero]

I'm too old and busy to run transition games. :-)

 

It isn't really all that true that D&D is based on LotR, at least if that implies that LotR was the dominant influence. If it were, it would be a better game. D&D is designed for and provides a kitchen-sink world that started with everything that Arneson and Gygax had ever read and then accreted from there; LotR was the largest single influence, but it's too diluted with everything else under the sun to identify them like that. For example, I'd happily run a Middle Earth campaign, but it would certainly not resemble D&D specifically because that would make it resemble Middle Earth much less. Classes, levels, zero-to-hero and all that goes with that, Vancian magic, most of the monsters--all that would have to get dumped to make it satisfying as a Middle Earth setting. I'm not even sure I'd permit PC wizards.

 

Notice that many of the things that immediately come to mind that you'd have to dump are core system assumptions, while all the things that come to mind that D&D took from LotR are surface things--specific races, for example.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm too old and busy to run transition games. :-)

 

It isn't really all that true that D&D is based on LotR, at least if that implies that LotR was the dominant influence. If it were, it would be a better game. D&D is designed for and provides a kitchen-sink world that started with everything that Arneson and Gygax had ever read and then accreted from there; LotR was the largest single influence, but it's too diluted with everything else under the sun to identify them like that. For example, I'd happily run a Middle Earth campaign, but it would certainly not resemble D&D specifically because that would make it resemble Middle Earth much less. Classes, levels, zero-to-hero and all that goes with that, Vancian magic, most of the monsters--all that would have to get dumped to make it satisfying as a Middle Earth setting. I'm not even sure I'd permit PC wizards.

 

Notice that many of the things that immediately come to mind that you'd have to dump are core system assumptions, while all the things that come to mind that D&D took from LotR are surface things--specific races, for example.

True enough.  I wasn't being particular specific and we all know the magic is far more Vancian in nature than Tolkien (to make it more playable I would assume, considering the dearth of characters capable of full blown magic in Middle Earth.)  And of course, I believe a lot of the differences between D&D and LotR is mainly due to the need to avoid copywrite infringement in addition to creating a melting pot of popular fantasy fiction of the time.  The influence that LotR had on the basic structure of D&D is palpable though.  Mainly the breakdown of the races and the prevalence of Orcs, goblins, trolls and ogres as universal villains.

[Vondy]

I am starting to think that the old toolkit approach to selling Hero might be wearing thin. That gamers today don't have the time or motivation to spend a ton of time using a game system to create low level things like spells and abilities. Perhaps the GURPS approach of having everything written up for a genre is the best way to go. The nice twist is that with Hero we can show people how to modify stuff to fit their tastes. Something that no other game system does really well.

 

That means that when Hero releases books they should be looking at marketing a game world more than just a whole Genre book. That does mean setting clear power levels and having PC examples and NPC examples that fit within that Powerlevel. It also means that stuff like Spells, Special Abilities, Equipment etc should be written up and 'ready to go". Yes all of us grognards will complain about how we have to buy the rules AGAIN, but this is about gaining new players. Perhaps even going as far as to organizing a RPGA kind of group with published adventures that new and experienced GM's can run at their local FLGS and conventions.

 

I do think that simulating D&D/Pathfinder is the way to go to gain new players. Show them that Hero can handle the kind of play that D&D does and can do more esp with character customization.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not 20 and single and gaming all the time anymore. I'm 41, married, have two daughters I do stuff with, a real job, non-gaming friends, and I also like to game. I don't have the time I once did to sit down and build a gazillion packages, write up extensive spells and super-skills and talents, and then fine-tune the rules options on top of generating world background in order to game.

 

Nor do I have the inclination I once did to spend my time on those things. I'm much more story and character centric in my approach to gaming. I want a good world to make those things sing in, and don't mind editing existing materials, but whole-cloth world creation? I just don't have the time -- let alone doing the mechanical work to support it!

 

I tend to leverage pulp hero, dark champions, powers, the grimoire, etc heavily when creating characters and thinking about games because they speed things along. I also, when running games, tend to go for "supported concepts." So, for instance, I'm more likely to run a "commando hero" or "super-agents" or "hudson city knights" or "urban fantasy" style game because its thematically focused *and* doesn't require huge amounts of work due to extant materials I can plunder. But, with Hero, its still a question of hotch-potching it together.

 

As for simulating D&D or Pathfinder, I think a setting that captured that flair and provided robust support -- both class and prestige class packages, feats expressed as talents and super-skills, tons of pre-gen spells tailored for the setting, glossy monster books, and advice about free form advancement would be a good start. The core demographic for our hobby is getting older, but they are also becoming parents of potential future gamers -- my 11 year old loves gaming! -- and can serve to educate and introduce the 20 something crowd to the system.

 

A big question for that, however, is: do they have the [expletive deleted] time? 

[Chris Goodwin]

Whenever fantasy comes up my players immediately start house-ruling AD&D 2E.

 

There's not a lot I can do about it.

I'll just link my post on the HERO For Dummies thread. 

 

Also, just yesterday I found an RPG.net thread discussing rolling low in D&D.

[Vondy]

I'll just link my post on the HERO For Dummies thread. 

 

Also, just yesterday I found an RPG.net thread discussing rolling low in D&D.

 

My players have 20 years of Hero experience and several of them have used it to run their own games.

 

Hero for Dummies isn't applicable, and does not change their bizarre fascination with "old school" vis-a-vis fantasy.

 

Nor do they care about the trivial low vs. high debate that flare up now and again.

[Chris Goodwin]

I've noticed people using it that way about playing Fantasy Hero. I find it odd enough that anyone would want to use hero to re-implement D&D, and even odder that if I say "high fantasy" it means a D&D like game.

People have been doing it at least since the beginning of the current incarnation of the Hero Games boards. I think the subtext is, "so I can get my D&D-only friends to try HERO." The theory is that a familiar magic system with familiar races and archetypes can help with that.