Narosia: My Sea Of Tears

[Ndreare]

So, anyone here have an update. I am at a point of giving up on this project which is well behind schedule for a product that was advertised as already years in the works and should have only required conversion to 6th ed.

I am normally pretty optimistic, but now it is by far the off the ball project I have backed, and the updates faded to only about once a month, no significant previews to see some of the progress and the last update was end of October or beginning of November so working on two months now.

 

Anyone on the inside?

[Nolgroth]

Yeah, this has gone on so long that I believe that the term vaporware may soon (if not already) apply. A simple update would be appreciated.

[Darren Watts]

So, anyone here have an update. I am at a point of giving up on this project which is well behind schedule for a product that was advertised as already years in the works and should have only required conversion to 6th ed.

I am normally pretty optimistic, but now it is by far the off the ball project I have backed, and the updates faded to only about once a month, no significant previews to see some of the progress and the last update was end of October or beginning of November so working on two months now.

 

Anyone on the inside?

I'm not sure where you got the idea it "only required conversion to 6th Ed" - it will include the entire rules set necessary for play, rewritten to match the setting and new rules included. It's a massive project. I agree and share your concern about how late it is, but Shane is going as quickly as he can, and it's by no means vaporware. dw

[bigbywolfe]

Who is Shane again?  That's not one of the names I see thrown around the forum often.

[Ndreare]

It is a bit of a shame, because a prepackaged fantasy setting and book could go a long way with introducing new players.

[Nolgroth]

I'm not sure where you got the idea it "only required conversion to 6th Ed" - it will include the entire rules set necessary for play, rewritten to match the setting and new rules included. It's a massive project. I agree and share your concern about how late it is, but Shane is going as quickly as he can, and it's by no means vaporware. dw

 

Thanks Darren. That message goes a long way to alleviate my own misgivings.

[bigbywolfe]

Posting updates to the Kickstarter can do a lot to alleviate concerns. Even if it's only once a month or every other month. Occasionally include a picture or a bit of fluff text from the setting. Say haopy holidays, we didn't forget you we are still working on the book. Something. Anything.

 

Leaving a Kickstarter to stagnate generally results in people forgetting about it or giving up on it and that often leads to people asking for refunds. Kickstarter etiquette and common courtesy dictates doing something other than maintaining complete radio silence.

[Darren Watts]

Who is Shane again?  That's not one of the names I see thrown around the forum often.

 

Shane Harsch, actual writer of the book. He's mudpyr8 around here, IIRC. dw

[Darren Watts]

Posting updates to the Kickstarter can do a lot to alleviate concerns. Even if it's only once a month or every other month. Occasionally include a picture or a bit of fluff text from the setting. Say haopy holidays, we didn't forget you we are still working on the book. Something. Anything.

 

Leaving a Kickstarter to stagnate generally results in people forgetting about it or giving up on it and that often leads to people asking for refunds. Kickstarter etiquette and common courtesy dictates doing something other than maintaining complete radio silence.

 

I agree, but alas I'm not in charge of this one. dw

[Darren Watts]

Posting updates to the Kickstarter can do a lot to alleviate concerns. Even if it's only once a month or every other month. Occasionally include a picture or a bit of fluff text from the setting. Say haopy holidays, we didn't forget you we are still working on the book. Something. Anything.

 

Leaving a Kickstarter to stagnate generally results in people forgetting about it or giving up on it and that often leads to people asking for refunds. Kickstarter etiquette and common courtesy dictates doing something other than maintaining complete radio silence.

 

I agree, but alas I'm not in charge of this one. dw

[shuddemell]

Yeah, as another backer of what seemed like a good project to support hero, I am disappointed with the whole handling of this. I expected a level of professionalism with regard to such public projects associated with Kickstarter. And overall I have not been too disappointed, but it is obvious from this and others that there is NO guarantee that people presenting as professionals actually are and obviously their optimism about their projects certainly lends them to a very optimistic appraisals of their timelines. I work in print professionally, so I really do know what it takes to make a book happen, and if this was going to happen, it already would have. I don't doubt the good faith of the people working on this, but though faith can move mountains, it won't beat reality no matter the intent.

[rjcurrie]

Yeah, as another backer of what seemed like a good project to support hero, I am disappointed with the whole handling of this. I expected a level of professionalism with regard to such public projects associated with Kickstarter. And overall I have not been too disappointed, but it is obvious from this and others that there is NO guarantee that people presenting as professionals actually are and obviously their optimism about their projects certainly lends them to a very optimistic appraisals of their timelines. I work in print professionally, so I really do know what it takes to make a book happen, and if this was going to happen, it already would have. I don't doubt the good faith of the people working on this, but though faith can move mountains, it won't beat reality no matter the intent.

You say you work in print professionally, but do you work with essentially first time authors who are working their writing in around a busy career and family life?

[shuddemell]

You say you work in print professionally, but do you work with essentially first time authors who are working their writing in around a busy career and family life?

Not presently, but I have in the past... In addition it is really immaterial, because if they are doing it as a hobby and a second job, they should factor that into their schedule. I understand missed deadlines and all, but we are talking about a year or more, so that explanation, though understandable should have been factored into the equation. This is exactly what I mean about professionalism... if you are not a professional writer/publisher/graphic artist... fine, tell everyone so there are no expectations. I probably would NOT back a project by someone that was in that position due to the likelihood that I would never get it. It is sad, but my funds and time are limited just like theirs. BTW, I manage a career, family life and am finishing my degree in Chemistry as we speak, so I understand all these pressures, but I am still expected to do all these things to a schedule without excuse.

[bigbywolfe]

There is a big difference between complaining about something being late and repeatedly claiming it will never get made. This won't be my first Kickstarter that was late by more than a year and still delivered.

 

I'm not justifying the lateness. This really is unacceptable. But I'm also not trying to stir up trouvle by convincing people no product is ever coming.

 

EDIT: as to your expectations of professionalism, you understand that this book is not being produced by Hero Games/DOJ, right?

[shuddemell]

There is a big difference between complaining about something being late and repeatedly claiming it will never get made. This won't be my first Kickstarter that was late by more than a year and still delivered.

 

I'm not justifying the lateness. This really is unacceptable. But I'm also not trying to stir up trouvle by convincing people no product is ever coming.

 

EDIT: as to your expectations of professionalism, you understand that this book is not being produced by Hero Games/DOJ, right?

Of course I realize this, but I also don't suppose that anyone running a business or engaging in business shouldn't be expected to be professional.  I never said it wasn't going to get made, I suggested that if it was a professional publishing house that these kinds of delays would likely mean it would never happen, and had I known that this was a second job/hobby I probably would not have backed it, because it is likely that it will never get made. I truly hope it does get made, I still think it a worthwhile project, I just have lost any hope of it happening before I pass the half century mark. I also realize the risk with Kickstarter in general that this may happen. I knew that and wouldn't seek legal remedy because of it. However, that being said, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to feel let down and disappointed that a supposed commercial venture is treated as a hobby/second job. At least armed with that information, I could have made a more informed choice about where to place my hard earned money.

[bluesguy]

Communication is the key to dealing with lateness of any project.  Even communicating that you are running late and why is often enough to keep stakeholders from getting very mad. 

 

For instance I am backing a couple of Kickstarter projects and they are very late.  But the people doing them have been clear in communicating on occasion about what is going on.

[Ndreare]

Well, I am sure most people here like myself are glad to hear he is still working the project. Darren if you have the power could you maybe bump him and see if he will give us a good update?

[ghost-angel]

I'm looking forward to this, and while I'm not entirely happy things are behind and the product is delayed...

 

This isn't even close to the longest delay I've seen for a Kickstarter project I've been involved in.

[rjcurrie]

Not presently, but I have in the past... In addition it is really immaterial, because if they are doing it as a hobby and a second job, they should factor that into their schedule. I understand missed deadlines and all, but we are talking about a year or more, so that explanation, though understandable should have been factored into the equation. This is exactly what I mean about professionalism... if you are not a professional writer/publisher/graphic artist... fine, tell everyone so there are no expectations. I probably would NOT back a project by someone that was in that position due to the likelihood that I would never get it. It is sad, but my funds and time are limited just like theirs. BTW, I manage a career, family life and am finishing my degree in Chemistry as we speak, so I understand all these pressures, but I am still expected to do all these things to a schedule without excuse.

 

I assume that these things are a given when dealing with the RPG "Industry".

[rjcurrie]

Shane Harsch, actual writer of the book. He's mudpyr8 around here, IIRC. dw

 

He seems to now be posting under the name Legendsmiths.

[ghost-angel]

... I suggested that if it was a professional publishing house that these kinds of delays would likely mean it would never happen, and had I known that this was a second job/hobby I probably would not have backed it, because it is likely that it will never get made. ...

 

My experience is the opposite of Kickstarter's done as side projects: they get made. I have yet to have a Kickstarter fail out on me. That's including a few nearly randomly chosen projects (mostly music related).

 

Our last update was Nov.3 - not quite two months ago. December marks the first month we've gone without an update of some kind. It's the "holiday season" month too, where everything goes crazy for people. At this point - your worry is misplaced and unfounded.

[Ndreare]

Great News, a new update was posted so we know the project was not dropped or forgotten. And the new update included a backer preview of a chapter.

[shuddemell]

My experience is the opposite of Kickstarter's done as side projects: they get made. I have yet to have a Kickstarter fail out on me. That's including a few nearly randomly chosen projects (mostly music related).

 

Our last update was Nov.3 - not quite two months ago. December marks the first month we've gone without an update of some kind. It's the "holiday season" month too, where everything goes crazy for people. At this point - your worry is misplaced and unfounded.

I would hardly say you can call my concern unfounded, as they are nearly a year late (SO FAR) and have not completed the project. Whatever your experience may be, it, like mine is one persons experience. The difference I mention is with professional publishers I have worked for, a delay this long would mean a cancelled contract and no project. I have no doubt that they intend to finish, but my concern is hardly misplaced or unfounded.

 

In addition, I believe there is a small misconception about my concern. It seems as if my concern is the small bit of money I pledged... it is not. That will neither make or break me, so by itself it isn't that important. My concern is the lack of professionalism shown in kickstarters in general. It is one thing to call it a hobby, but to treat it as a business for profit, certain standards should be maintained that are not presently.

[Legendsmiths]

Thanks everyone for your support on this. I was not aware of this thread or I would have chimed in earlier. 

 

Shuddemell - I hear you, I do. As I have communicated in the KS updates we are doing something here that is a little different than other setting books in the past. This has caused a lot of churn on the back-end in terms of making the rules work and being able to communicate them clearly. I am frustrated by this delay hopefully more than anyone. This project definitely became bigger than I thought at the outset. 

 

At the outset we were sitting on so much material I thought, honestly, this was going to be primarily an exercise in editing. That turned out to be very wrong, but the outcome is extremely positive. 

 

I am receiving the last pieces of art this week and finishing the magic section. It is coming together very nicely. The reason I am being so careful about the final product is, fundamentally, I've got one shot to lay the foundation for future products. If the core book is broken, inconsistent, or requires numerous clarifications/revisions after its release, potential new players will find it simply too frustrating to get into the game. I want to avoid as much of that confusion as possible so that I can continue to expand the product line. 

 

As for profit - this is, ultimately, a loss leader. Our goal with the KS was to fund its production with as little cost as possible. We recognize that the market for a product like this is smaller than most. So, on the back-end there is a lot of investment by me to make this happen. I love what we are doing here and I am looking forward to having the book in my hand, but we need to do it right. 

 

Make no mistake - I am the bottleneck, for good or ill. I am working to ensure that the setting works the way it should and that that is leverages all the strengths of the Hero System in a way that is fun and accessible. I don't like the delay, but I will tell you it will be a better product for it. 

 

Thank you for your patience and support. 

[bluesguy]

Regular communication is always helpful - even communication along the lines of "This past month I was only able to do X".