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Helping Build Tikhon


UbiquitousRat

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Hello!

 

Having been engaged by loads of good folk with the question, "Why play Hero 6e?", I have decided to give running a game a go. It seemed most logical to try and build elements for the existing Fantasy-genre game that my group is already playing, albeit with our own OSR-derived system. 

 

I've moved the posting here because it seemed better to separate the "help the newbie build stuff" thread from the previous topic. If you want to join in, I'd be grateful because... well, it's all new and I get the feeling that I need a lot of advice.

 

---

 

My First Drax (Dwarf)

 

Continuing the saga of Aelfrik, my first stab at a Dwarf hero, I've modified the character as advised. To help folk visualise what I am after, here are bits from the background my gaming group has constructed so far:

 

 

Dwarfs (Drax)

The Drax have been around longer than Humans can remember. Because they are shorter than Humans, they are commonly known as Dwarfs.
 
Dwarfs are tough, resilient and often dour; many Humans stereotype Dwarfs as grumpy and miserable, but this is a mistake which overlooks the Dwarfish capacity for celebration.
 
Physically, Dwarfs are shorter than Humans but also stout and tough. A Dwarf can usually work harder and longer, preferring to get stuck in rather than pussy-foot around. Well-adapted to high-altitudes, Dwarfs have nevertheless often chosen to live underground in mining communities. As a consequence, Mountain Dwarfs have become adapted to seeing in the darkness of underground places.
 
Dwarfs have wrestled with Orcs, Uruk, Goblins and Giants throughout most of their history, a fact which has scarred relations with these brutal species. Mountain Dwarfs harbor resentment and even hatred towards these tribal enemies, having long practised the art of war against their raids and depredations.
 
The Dwarfish love for shiny things is another fact that cannot be overlooked. Gold, gems and other precious things are desired greatly by most Dwarfs; it’s a fact that the average Dwarf would not be able to walk past a pile of Gold Sovereigns without pocketing at least a few of them… and he might not even notice that he has done so.

 

For a more full understanding of what I'm trying to convert, I've also pulled an extract from our setting guide for the existing d100-based game. If you focus on the Race and Role Traits / Advancements, you can get a feel for what I'm trying to emulate. It's very classical fantasy in feel... 

Mountain Dwarf Barbarian (UbiRPG extract).pdf

 

So far... I've lowered the DCV (and OMCV) and equipped him with Battleaxe, Bronze Panoply, and Bronze Shield. I've altered his Complications to emulate the Dwarfish lust for Shiny Things. I've also removed the inappropriate "Small" template. That leaves quite a few points to play with.

 

What I'd like to look at is how to emulate the Mountain Dwarf racial traits "Hard as Granite", and "Defensive Expertise (Giants & Ogres)". I'd also like to emulate the Mountain Barbarian's "Intimidate" trait. Advice welcome.

 

Here's the updated sheet... with many points still to spend: 

Aelfrik.pdf

 

In the meantime, I'm going to work on an Uruk Warrior...

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Defense expertise vs. giants and ogres. +2 DCV only vs. giant kind (- 1/2).

And if you want, you could also give the dwarfs -2 PER self onl (-1/2) & giant kind (-1/2).

This makes your dwarf harder to see and to hit by giantkind only.

Note -you should determine beforehand weather these abilities refer to giants only or any "giant" sized creature.

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Here's what I'm thinking for one those Dwarfish abilities:

Defensive Expertise (Giants & Ogres): Defense Maneuver I-II (5 Active Points); Conditional Power only usable against Giants & Ogres (-1 1/2) 

 

Really stumped on the "Hard as Granite". Currently, that's a simple "Saving Throw" modifier to three types of save. Seems like poison, fear, and magick are three very different effects in Hero. Hmm. Right now, it seems easiest to steal the Dwarven Toughness: Resistance (+3 to roll) from Fantasy Hero.

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-2 to PER is HUGE.  Would not suggest this.  

 

+2 DCV is also HUGE; I think to make it comparable to D20's trope, +1 DCV vs. Giants (or, really, just a +1 All Combat (Only vs. Giants) would be better than just DCV.)

 

"Hard as Granite" sounds like some innately higher defenses; maybe a single point of innate Resistant Protection?  

 

Dwarves are generally short, but brawny and steady on their feet.  Maybe a broken-out "1 level of Always-On Density Increase?"  +5 STR, +1 PD/ED, and -2m KB resist as a compound power with the "Unified Power" limitation?

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Here's what I'm thinking for one those Dwarfish abilities:

Defensive Expertise (Giants & Ogres): Defense Maneuver I-II (5 Active Points); Conditional Power only usable against Giants & Ogres (-1 1/2)

OK. One thing to keep in mind is that defense maneuver is specifically the ability to fight multiple opponents, as I'm sure you saw. That means it isn't of much use unless the character is tough enough to fight multiple giants and ogres. Also, highly skilled dwarves may want to buy off the limitation (something I generally would permit as fighting many mooks is kind of a genre staple, I suspect Gimli used it a lot at Helm's deep for example), at which point they're not getting any special benefit for being a dwarf. My suggestion would be to buy a couple of CSLs "only against giants & ogres" and extend the deadly blow damage to include giants & ogres as well as orcs, and leave defense maneuver as something any sufficiently well trained dwarf can buy. To me that works better because levels and damage both stack, so that no matter what else the character buys his special dwarf ability will keep giving him a bonus.

 

An interesting alternative, just to illustrate fun things you can do with the system, would be to buy location levels only vs giants & ogres. That would fit if your special effect is that dwarves know just where to hit them. It has a little more flavor than just extra damage, but also is more specific about just what a dwarf's advantage against giants is and so has to fit your vision for dwarves more specifically.

 

There is nothing wrong with your version if you like it, I'm just offering an alternative.

 

Really stumped on the "Hard as Granite". Currently, that's a simple "Saving Throw" modifier to three types of save. Seems like poison, fear, and magick are three very different effects in Hero. Hmm. Right now, it seems easiest to steal the Dwarven Toughness: Resistance (+3 to roll) from Fantasy Hero.

Yeah, quite different in Hero. Resistance to fear is usually bought as extra presence "only to resist fear attacks," I think. As for the magic save, one product of Hero not being fantasy-specific is that it doesn't treat Magic specially, which can be frustrating if you want to have a general magic-resistance kind of effect in your world. IIRC the Fantasy Hero solution is to houserule in magic as a kind of damage category analogous to physical and energy, and allow PD to be bought against magic (I think it can function as physical, energy, power, flash, or mental defense against magic attacks). I don't remember the details or the cost structure, but that system tweak might fit your world very well.

 

Another way that isn't complex is to notice that unlike D&D mages have to make a hit roll just like everyone else, and buy DCV "only vs magic." That's a different game effect since it resists the magic taking effect at all rather than reducing it's effect, so as with so very many things in hero it's a matter of taste. I mention it because (IIRC, I never played much D&D) a saving throw has a similar effect in reducing the chance of suffering effect rather than reducing the amount of the effect. (Or does a successful save only reduce the damage by half?) If I went that route I'd probably bump down the level of the limitation if necessary so that the levels also apply to MDCV, since the mental/regular power distinction doesn't fit fantasy as well as superheroes or science fiction.

 

That said, you could go a completely different way and buy the dwarf one level of Damage Negation, which would fit being a tough guy. Everyone rolls one less die (1/3 of a die for a killing attack) of damage against him.

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+2 DCV is also HUGE; I think to make it comparable to D20's trope, +1 DCV vs. Giants (or, really, just a +1 All Combat (Only vs. Giants) would be better than just DCV.)

I couldn't find the +2 DCV on the sheet, though the cost seems to reflect it since he only paid 5 points for DCV 6. Either it's in there and I can't find it or the DCV should have cost 15 and not 5. It looks like he used HD, which should get the cost right, so I must be blind.

 

Dwarves are generally short, but brawny and steady on their feet.  Maybe a broken-out "1 level of Always-On Density Increase?"  +5 STR, +1 PD/ED, and -2m KB resist as a compound power with the "Unified Power" limitation?

Shades of 4e! He's using 6e, we're not supposed to buy DE always on anymore. :)

 

He could take the combined recommendations for levels of growth and DE, cancel out things that cancel (like KB resistance, if he actually uses KB in fantasy), and buy the rest, but why bother? In most games dwarves melee like humans, so I don't think they need much in the way of specific size adjustments. Same for orcs, even though they often are pretty short and squat.

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I'd be wary about too straight-forward conversions. Sure, you can probably use HERO to do that, it's not a very opinionated system and mostly concerned about the effects. But especially when it comes to "traditional" fantasy rules (who am I kidding: D&D variants), it might be better to review your assumptions and maybe adapt a bit.

 

HERO is a bit more skill-based and modular, and I'd try to revise a few "innate" bonuses that way. There's no way to pick and choose racial abilities in most D&D editions, but it's no problem in a point-buy system. So don't make everything mandatory. Not every dwarf had extensive giant-fighting training, not every elf handled longswords enough. Put in the "essential" mods in one template and then present others as optional abilities. Some of which might even be added after the game starts...

 

Also, I personally try to model a few things with a more "realistic" bent. If one gets a bonus or special ability, then I ask myself why and how. This often has an influence on how its built, as with HERO There's More Than One Way To Do It. Take "keen elven senses" for example. In some other game, this is a "+2 bonus" to some perception skill. In older games it was "can only surprised on a 6 on a d6". Now, what it's going to be in HERO? You could go with a +2 PER, sure. But you could also give a bonus vs. the range modifier (Telescopic), for the "elven farsight" bit. Or make it partially penetrative, so that elves can see through mist (measly point or two, but certainly evocative).

 

Same goes for dwarven resistance. A lot of that is covered by attributes already. As opposed to e.g. AD&D, you get bonuses early enough and don't need to be near the peak for them to matter. So racial bonuses beyond that might not be necessary and it saves you from including yet another ability. But if your dwarves go beyond that, you might ask yourself whether it's really just because they're that darn tough or maybe because they're a bit different. Their metabolism might not just be a bit more efficient, it might be quite odd in places -- that "partially made from stone" adage could be true. You could build both with "Life Support(Immunity from all poisons): Requires a Roll". But in once place it might be a CON roll, in the other a random activation roll -- which you don't repeat for the same poison ever.

 

As for the "racial fighting" bonuses that dwarves and gnomes get, apart from making them optional (not every dwarf is the bearded clan warrior archetype), I'd pay double attention at the qualifiers. In AD&D, you couldn't just give a general bonus to either AC or to-hit, as that's the totality of your whole combat system. HERO is a bit more fine-grained. So why couldn't Defense Maneuver apply to everyone? Sure, you learn it because some racial enemies tend to swarm you, but after going out from your burrow one might find out that others do it in pretty much the same way. Or if it is more specific, is just because of the height? In which case I'd much rather write "humanoid opponents > 3m". Thinking about more specific combat tactics, "not being grabbed" or "outmaneuvering reach" could qualify as more specific tactics.

 

(And if it's really that important and people are trained specifically for this, well, that's called a "Martial Art")

 

Finally, if it's really just about simulating something that's easily done in one system but rather hard in HERO, then that's most likely an artifact of the other system, not the racial/professional/background narrative. And thus probably should be dropped. Before you spend too much time and several Powers just to make the equivalent of a "saving throw bonus", better go by the spirit of those rules, not the laws themselves.

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I agree with all that in general, but re-thinking everything might be too ambitious while at the same time learning Hero. It might be easier to just do the straight conversion when it's easy (e.g. +2 per) and leave the rest for when he's got his feet under him. Same with things like racial bonuses to combat; sure, in fact they're artifacts from a less flexible system and realistically shouldn't be so much racial bonuses as fighting abilities normally only taught by (and to, unless they're a lot less secretive than Tolkien's dwarves) dwarves. I'd be inclined to write up a "dwarven fighting arts package" (could use the MA rules but needn't) separate from the racial package (or just be lazy and not write it up formally but let dwarves take stuff with the justification "I'm a dwarf, we fight these guys all the time").

 

But...Hero is already inherently complex enough, I would hate to increase the incidental complexity by forcing a re-think of the ground rules even if that might be a fruitful thing to do. I like illustrating to the OP all the fun things we can do with Hero, but I fear making him think you must do them lest he give up in frustration. I've been remarking on fun alternatives because of the original "why use Hero" thread, but I'm probably laying it on too thick for the goal of *getting something going*. Sorry, OP.

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Well, if you're up for it, then carry on. :D

 

Keep in mind that the rabbit hole of the re-examination of core assumptions can go very deep, however. People look at the rules and can't find character classes and wonder "what is a priest?" I'm inclined to say it's a character with a perk that permits them to perform all of the sacraments except ordination. This greatly confuses people who think a priest is someone with fair fighting ability and spells, and that must be codified in the rules somewhere. :-) Hero is pretty dedicated to the motto of the Linux kernel: "mechanism, not policy."

 

Just don't leave your players in the dust or they'll be too conceptually lost to want to play.

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I think it's important to keep things relatable for the players, but it's also valid to question what I can ADD to their conceptions of things in the setting. A break with the Race and Role packages, at least a little, gives me wiggle room to present heroes who are, perhaps, a little more than they might be in our existing game. That MIGHT be something that justifies the change of system...

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Well, I've been there (and rather recently), and it can go both ways: For one, leaving things out obviously doesn't waste time. And there are lots of tropes that might not fit perfectly well but just are in there for tradition, whether it's races or magic systems.

 

The worst thing is when you don't have a proper idea and all awash in the glory of HERO ;)

Then it's a deadly spiral of "hmm, I wonder what I can do" and "do I actually want this?". Fiddling with mechanical details and concepts and the same time is where evenings get wasted... This hit me harder when it came to the magic system(s).

 

My racial templates tend to be rather minimal. Maybe a point or two in attributes here and there, and a bit defining the senses. The rest is mostly a character choice. No need to give every elf basic magical ability, if the player wants that, he can put his points where he wants them. Where I did put a few items (and wanted to do more) was about really special abilities, even if only optional. Items on the templates that are mostly for inspiration. If gnomes can create extradimensional storage spaces in their beards, that's saying something, even if the player won't take it.

 

Although I'd restrict that to two or three items, you don't want to end up in deep "My Elves Are Different" territory.

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I tried, and largely not-quite-failed, to use a similar concept with new players:

 

I'd have them try to explain their character sans any rules anything whatsoever; "I'm a dwarf, a berzerker who uses an axe but sees heavy armor as a sign of cowardice."

 

Then we'd build the character from there.

 

Invariably, my players would re-direct the conversation to "Ooh, Defense Maneuver sounds neat, can I have that?"  :D

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Here's what I'm thinking for one those Dwarfish abilities:

Defensive Expertise (Giants & Ogres): Defense Maneuver I-II (5 Active Points); Conditional Power only usable against Giants & Ogres (-1 1/2) 

 

Really stumped on the "Hard as Granite". Currently, that's a simple "Saving Throw" modifier to three types of save. Seems like poison, fear, and magick are three very different effects in Hero. Hmm. Right now, it seems easiest to steal the Dwarven Toughness: Resistance (+3 to roll) from Fantasy Hero.

 

Well, what that +3 gets you is a bonus to resist Interrogation. Which probably fits but doesn't cover everything you want.

 

The problem with defending against things like poison and magic is, you need to figure out how those things work first. If you don't know what you're using for magic, it's hard to know what can defend against it.

 

If, for example, you're not planning to have any Mental Powers in the game, or none that aren't also magic, you might make it your campaign rule that all magic must be bought to work off of OMCV and DMCV and go against Mental Defense. Then being magic resistant might be a matter of having a high DMCV.

 

Generally, poisons either are bought "Vs Alternate Defense, All or Nothing" with the appropriate Immunity from Life Support being one of the possible defenses, or else are bought with a Limitation: not vs. character with the Immunity. Making a character poison proof is actually simple and cheap, and attaching a CON roll or something to it as a Limitation makes it even cheaper.

 

Fear is trickier than one might think. The most obvious way to do fear effects is with PRE, but one might make a "fear spell" that is Mind Control (one command - run away) or Change Environment with penalties described as "shaking with fear" or even Running, Usable as Attack.

 

Here are some ideas I whipped up in Hero Designer:

 

Hard as Granite:  (Total: 30 Active Cost, 30 Real Cost) Poison, Magic, fear based PRE Attacks, Fear Effects Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (Real Cost: 30)

In this case, I typed over the word "Physical" and inserted "Poison, Magic, etc" on the assumption that, collectively, these attacks are not any more common than Physical attacks and therefore this should be balanced. It has the advantage of working against pretty much ANY way such things might be built; even if someone builds Running, Usable as Attack, your Dwarf would only move half as far before turning around again! (and that's assuming you don't let it completely negate such a build, since "Usable as Attack" abilities are supposed to come with some sort of automatic defense anyway.)

 

Hard as Granite:  (Total: 37 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (5 PD/5 ED/5 Mental Defense/5 Power Defense), Inherent (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Also hinders beneficial magic; -1), Only Works Against Uncommon attack (Poison, magic, fear effects; -3/4) (Real Cost: 13)

Much cheaper, but only subtracts 5 from these effects. Technically wouldn't help vs PRE attacks, but that can be "hand waved." Now I think of it, the "also hinders beneficial magic" could have been put on the first version too.

 

Hard as Granite:  (Total: 75 Active Cost, 23 Real Cost) Life Support  (Immunity All terrestrial poisons) (5 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Characteristic roll; CON; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Desolidification , Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Only To Protect Against [Limited Type Of Attack] (Magic; -1), Always On (-1/2), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Requires A Roll (11- roll; -1/2) (Real Cost: 20)

 

The Life Support is probably the best way to deal with poison resistance. The Desolidification I'm not crazy about, but it's been used before to grant immunity to a damage type. Why did I make it a straight 11 or less roll instead of a CON roll?  There's a peculiarity in the rules about imposing penalties due to the Active Points in a Power; so the basic Characteristic roll would have been at MINUS SEVEN in this case, or -3 depending on the option chosen. But funny thing, pick a straight "Roll X or less" instead of a Skill or Characteristic, and there's no penalty.

 

Dwarves don't get scared, they get Enraged:  Fear based PRE  attack exceeds PRE by 10 pts (Uncommon), go 14-, recover 14- 

- 15 points

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

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Ok, following an ok but not awesome non-HERO session last night, there is a small possibility of the guys opting to shift system sooner than I might have anticipated. That leaves me with the challenge of porting characters.

 

If this happens, here is what I was thinking of doing:

- Convert the heroes for the players, porting their concepts as best as I can manage.

- Asking each player what elements are the "deal breaker" bits that must be converted, to make sure they get what they feel is important.

- Setting the Heroic points value to 200pts to take into account their higher-Level in the current system (roughly analogous to D&D Level 4).

- Playing but allowing player-led tweaking for a few sessions to off-set things I misinterpret.

 

What do you think? What else do I need to consider?

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Hero and D&D are very different.  In D&D for example your character gets more hit points as they increase in level, though different classes get more or less HP. In Hero you pretty much stick with your Body level unless you are really bulking out a physical character.

 

Personally I would just start from scratch rather than trying to convert point for point, but make sure you keep the flavour of the characters and particularly note any advancement the characters have made so the players don't feel like they've lost their progress by porting.  Once you have built the Hero versions of the characters you can probably stage a practice encounter or two against monsters which you would expect a level 4 D&D party to be facing, just to check that the change is not too jarring, if your characters crush the opposition or are butchered then you should probably adjust them before handing them back to their owners.

 

That being said.  Killershrike's 3e D&D to Hero conversion document may prove useful if you want to take the crunchy route.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/Conversion3eStep1.aspx

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So, for a roughly 4th Level port to Hero, what kind of points value do you think I should aim for? Or should I just build the heroes and see if it fits into a common budget?

 

I'd build them as best you can and see where you wind up. One thing I would be careful about is Combat Value  inflation and spread. You don't want to have the highest and the lowest CVs more than 4 levels apart, and, since they're relative, you don't need to boost them extremely high.

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Looks like my next session (in two Fridays time) will be running Hero System 6e. That's probably a good thing, but I will need to win the guys to the change very effectively... and transfer their heroes quite faithfully from the existing OSR-inspired system.

 

I've decided to build one of the heroes as-is and used that to set the points values. Looks like an appropriate level is having them start with 100 points (50 matching complications) and then add around 45 XP to lift them to their current experienced status in the present system.

 

Attached is Gerhad, the Mountain Drax Barbarian character. He's fairly straight-forward, and has been built using earlier advice from this thread. I'd appreciate a weather-eye on my construction skills.

Gerhad.pdf

 

Next comes the Human Ranger, the Uruk Warrior (don't ask!), the High Elven Witchhunter, and a Human Priest of the Lightbringer. The latter requires me to design a Divine Miracles system to match the one in use... but that is probably fairly simple.

 

Thanks for the advice thus far... and I hope you don't mind me continuing to post up stuff for evaluation.

 

Game on!

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Looks like my next session (in two Fridays time) will be running Hero System 6e. That's probably a good thing, but I will need to win the guys to the change very effectively... and transfer their heroes quite faithfully from the existing OSR-inspired system.

 

I've decided to build one of the heroes as-is and used that to set the points values. Looks like an appropriate level is having them start with 100 points (50 matching complications) and then add around 45 XP to lift them to their current experienced status in the present system.

 

Attached is Gerhad, the Mountain Drax Barbarian character. He's fairly straight-forward, and has been built using earlier advice from this thread. I'd appreciate a weather-eye on my construction skills.

attachicon.gifGerhad.pdf

 

Next comes the Human Ranger, the Uruk Warrior (don't ask!), the High Elven Witchhunter, and a Human Priest of the Lightbringer. The latter requires me to design a Divine Miracles system to match the one in use... but that is probably fairly simple.

 

Thanks for the advice thus far... and I hope you don't mind me continuing to post up stuff for evaluation.

 

Game on!

 

To make explaining the character sheet easier to the player you might want to set all the Characteristic bonuses from being "Drax" as secondary stats.  That way, the points spent in the actual Characteristic Block will make more sense. I would also suggest creating a "List" in Hero Designer and assigning all the racial abilities to it and only worry about individual descriptive titles to abilities like "Intimidating Rage".  "Feats of STR" seems weird as a 2nd STR entry.  Seems like it might need a Limitation like x2 END or something to set it apart from "Drax STR". (If you do that you should also set "Feats of STR" to NOT add to totals in the Characteristic Block).  I would also suggest adding the descriptions of Defense Maneuver I & II to the "Notes" section of that ability so you and the player don't have to refer to the rulebooks to see exactly what it does.  If you want to see examples of what I mean see the 400 point Justice League link in my sig below and look up the links to Barry Allen(Flash) and Bruce Wayne(Batman) in the first post of that thread for examples of what I mean.

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Have altered the sheet as you suggested, adding the Racial List. I've also taken out the second STR power and just bought it as extra STR.

 

I added the notes to the Defense Maneuver skill, but the .PDF template doesn't let it show. I may need to find a better template for printing these out. 

Gerhad.pdf

 

Your example sheets exports for Flash et al were pretty cool, Hyper-Man - is that format something I can grab from somewhere?

 

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Have altered the sheet as you suggested, adding the Racial List. I've also taken out the second STR power and just bought it as extra STR.

 

I added the notes to the Defense Maneuver skill, but the .PDF template doesn't let it show. I may need to find a better template for printing these out. 

attachicon.gifGerhad.pdf

 

Your example sheets exports for Flash et al were pretty cool, Hyper-Man - is that format something I can grab from somewhere?

 

Here's the sheet I like to use:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/66-6e-html-the-ultimate-character-sheet-by-desaturated/

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