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Not enough rDEF?


Christougher

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People have been posting that they have ACT points in attacks around 30-40.  I'll make an assumption that this is reffering to weapon attacks.  So I looked up weapon stats in both Ultimate Martial Artist (5th) and Fantasy Hero (4th).  Unfortunately FH doesn't have listed any ACT points listed with weapons however, UMA does.  And here is a short list I think is interesting.

 

Weapon                                 Damage                    ACT pts

3 man Yumi (Bow)                  2D6 RKA                     55

Comet Star Hammer              1D6+1 HKA                  50

Toami  (Net)                           4D6 Entangle              70

Bokken (wooden sword)         5D6N                          50

Hook Sword                            1D6+1 HKA                58

No-Dachi (sword)                    2D6 HKA                    52

Bo (staff)                                4D6 N                         42

Tetsubo (Iron Staff)                 6D6 N                         57

 

I need to point out that although these weapons are from the UMA, they are witten up to represent Heroic level of play similiar to Fantasy Heroic level. (And I didn't type out some of the advatages listed which makes some of these weapons higher in ACT points than by just looking at points bought in damage. Some of the following adavatages used are: ranged, combat levels, and area effect.) As I said, its not nessecerly how many points are spent, but where they are spent.

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I was thumbailing the AP of the actual dice being thrown sans additional advantages, or the entire cost of weapons built as multipowers, etc. I should have been clearer about that. I shall rephrase -- my FH games generally have attacks running 3-8 DCs. The usual main attack is 5-8 DCs, but I don't fret the occasional 9DC attack. In other words, killing attacks of 1-3d6 and normal attacks of 3-8/9d6 are the norm in most games I've played in (or run).

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Good catch. You know I always thought that weapons in a "realistic" game should have an END. It would balance heavy weapon users I think.

 

Most weapons would also have STR Min, which then moves the END cost to how much STR is used with the weapon. I could also see heavy weapon users losing a few END to LTE for protracted fights, especially if they are constantly using added STR to push up damage. Remember also that END costs for STR usage in Heroic games is usually 1 per 5 STR, not the 1 per 10 Active that Supers (and spells and powers) use, so the heavy fighter should reasonably be burning through a lot more END anyway.

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These weapons have the 0 end advantage (+1/2). Some have the ranged advantage (+1/2). some of these weapons also have built in combat skill levels (such as the hook swords +2 to bind, block, disarm and takeaway) and ranged skill levels (maybe the yumi?) which is 5 active points per +1.

 

The important thing here is that the weapons base damage remain between 4 and 6 DC average (before considering advantages).

 

If you allow players to write up their own weapons where the base damage starts hitting the 3d6 zone, your going to run into balance issues.

 

Remember, the heaviest weapons in Fantasy Hero and UMA do around 2d6+1k base damage. the vast majority range between 1d6k and 1 1/2d6k. the active on those ranges between 22 and 38 points (assuming 0 end, but not considering a possible ranged advantage for throwable weapons like spears, but even then, a typical 1d6+1k spear is only 45 active including the ranged advantage and +1" reach bonus)

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That's 10-12 DC grand total, not the weapons themselves - I posted my weapons list in the downloads section.  There's armor included there as well, but that's even more work in progress than the weapons list.  And yes, that includes the possibility of a 4d6 KA; if the mage types can reach that level of damage, there's no reason the warrior types shouldn't be able to either.

 

Chris.

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Yeah, /finding/ the amount of rDEF wasn't the issue.  It was *getting* that much rDEF with what was available.  

 

Right now, I'm looking at boosting 'worn armor' by 50%, and/or some lesser version of Combat Luck, possibly for free. 

 

Chris.

 

In my games, I give "main cast," "big bads," "primary henchmen," and named "recurring cast" 1 level of combat luck.

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Fwiw I found Darien the Bold pg. 512 in Fifth rev. as a samplr fantasy character.

 

Relevant stats are as follows:

STR 18 MA usable with blades Offensive Strike +2DC with MA wf: blades and he has +2 csl w/H2H

 

So if he uses a Bastard Sword (1 1/2D6 HKA STR Min 13 pg. 481) that's starts at 5DC add 1DC for STR Min add 3DC for offensive Strike (6DC total /2 to add to killing attack) & add 1DC for using csls for damage which yields a 10DC killing attack.

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Yeah, /finding/ the amount of rDEF wasn't the issue.  It was *getting* that much rDEF with what was available.  

 

Right now, I'm looking at boosting 'worn armor' by 50%, and/or some lesser version of Combat Luck, possibly for free. 

 

Chris.

 

 

 Be aware of what that will mean though: if armour is commonly available, it's going to give you a game with a kind of "A-team" feel, where people battle with lethal weapons, but few people die or even get seriously hurt: a 50% boost means a person in plate will be completely immune to physical damage from a heavy longbow - even a hit to the head with a max damage roll will just leave him with some superficial bruising and a bit of headache (though he'll almost certainly be KO'ed). Even chain mail will stop all physical damage from most blows - a strong man with a greatsword is only going to have about a 30% chance to inflict any lasting harm through chain mail and would require on average about 13 hits to kill an ordinary man in chain: his target is likely to be unconscious long before he's taken any serious damage. A chain vest upgraded by 50% will bounce a ballista bolt without any lasting injury to the person inside about 30% of the time and on average, you'd need to hit someone in chain with 5-6 ballista bolts to kill them.

 

If you let combat luck stack, these effects will be more extreme ...

 

Interestingly, since the PCs will want to boost their attacks as high as possible to cope with increased armour values, it will make unarmoured combat absolutely lethal to anyone without 2 levels of combat luck.

 

We've actually been there - we stopped allowing combat lack to stack after one PC in plate harness charged down a unit of about 100 longbowmen. Of all the arrows that hit him, most pattered off his armour like so much light rain. None did BOD, most did little if any STUN: the archers (sensibly) fled from this apparently invulnerable attacker (I should note we used hit locations, which meant that many arrows hit his limbs, doing essentially no damage through the combination of armour, combat luck and his own PD).

 

 Ninja-bear's example makes this point: the Darien the Bold character is a 150 point PC, specialized in swordplay (martial arts). Using his standard equipment (Broadsword and shield) vs. a foe in "upgraded" chain mail, he is going struggle to wound his opponent. If he takes a bastard sword and goes all-out, he's got a good chance of wounding, but he's going to have to nickel and dime his opponent to death - average hits are only going to do 1-3 BOD - even a maxed-out roll on his all-out attack is only going to be lethal if he gets a head hit.

 

Now, of course if you're planning a high fantasy game where the opponents are not other humans, but demons or arch sorcerors, this might be entirely appropriate. But it's good to be aware that what look like minor tweaks can have a major effect on play dynamics.

 

cheers, Mark

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Not to disagree with Markdoc's analysis or results, but...

 

The game recommends a certain level of defense.  Makes it difficult to reach that.  Attempts to fix that bring about other consequences.  Why?

 

As to the raising of rDEF, while maybe not to that extreme, in far too many Fantasy Hero games, DCV is the only practical defense.  With the wild swings from Stun Multiples and Hit locations, it is impossible to have sufficient defenses to tank damage rather than avoid it.  And to me, that is a bad thing.

 

Chris.

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Not to disagree with Markdoc's analysis or results, but...

 

The game recommends a certain level of defense.  Makes it difficult to reach that.  Attempts to fix that bring about other consequences.  Why?

 

As to the raising of rDEF, while maybe not to that extreme, in far too many Fantasy Hero games, DCV is the only practical defense.  With the wild swings from Stun Multiples and Hit locations, it is impossible to have sufficient defenses to tank damage rather than avoid it.  And to me, that is a bad thing.

 

Chris.

 

It sounds like you are assuming either, 1) there is only one fantasy genre, or 2) that one size fits every genre. What works for one won't work for another, and what the book recommends won't fit every campaign.

 

One thing I've noticed in 5E and 6E is the increasing use of martial maneuvers for armed combat -- and the commensurate damage bumps they provide. As colorful as the MA maneuvers are, they can introduce problems in many heroic genres when applied to armed combat. This has, in turn, led to a proliferation of methods for bumping defense beyond what armor provides. Hence the lists of (defensive) super-skills in dark champions, fantasy hero, pulp hero, etc.

 

If you are playing a high fantasy game with dragons, giants, the undead and the like then bumping DC/Def ratios with assorted heroic abilities makes sense. Let combat luck stack, and cull the books (like pulp hero, dark champions, and FH) for other defensive abilities. It makes for a highly cinematic and legendary style of play -- which is what Mr. Long's approach handles best. Its certainly valid, and is great for certain genres and styles of play.

 

But its not the exclusively correct method. Perhaps the problem you are encountering isn't in the amount of defense available, but the DCs in play. If you are running a game like Thieves' World, Lankhmar, Harn where monsters are rare and most opponents are human and magic is subtle then it may be better to put a hard cap on the DCs being thrown (8-9).

 

For my low fantasy style games I don't use martial arts. I do occasionally allow HA and HKA boosting abilities, but prefer skill levels being allotted to damage. But... only within the defined caps and only where strictly necessary to put the character in the right zone.

 

A 2d6 KA (6DC) will average 7 body and 14 stun. A warrior with PD 6 and Chain Mail DF 6 will take 1 body and 2 stun from an average blow. That's not much. In fact, if he's up against a similar opponent, they will have a very long fight on their hands with prayers for a big damage roll being uttered. Even with a CV disparity, the character who is routinely hitting will take a while to put his opponent down -- and called shots to unprotected flesh will become attractive.

 

If you bump it to 3d6 (9DC) then it will average 10 body and 20 stun per blow. The same warrior above will take 4 body and 6 stun from each blow. Assuming 12-15 body, 4-5 such blows will put him in mortal peril (even if he has positive stun). That is, nonetheless, an impressively heroic amount of damage to soak before going down. In a real life, or even most cinematic fantasy  combats, how many people suffer several serious wounds in a combat at survive? The point is not to be hit -- and that is 80% of what is being depicted.

 

Its also why shields (DC bumps), blocks, and dodges are so popular. Standing there and taking -- if you aren't an invulnerable comic book hero -- is a fools move. Or a D&D strategy. I have 100 hit points... let's trade blows! For my games the important characters (heroes, big bags, key henchmen, etc) can throw 8-9 DCs, while most opponents are throwing 3-6 DCs. Add in a CV advantage for the important characters and they can reasonably take on multiple mooks (who will seldom more than nickle and dime them), while still having to go mano-a-mano with their equals.

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If you are playing a high fantasy game with dragons, giants, the undead and the like then bumping DC/Def ratios with assorted heroic abilities makes sense. Let combat luck stack, and cull the books (like pulp hero, dark champions, and FH) for other defensive abilities. It makes for a highly cinematic and legendary style of play -- which is what Mr. Long's approach handles best. Its certainly valid, and is great for certain genres and styles of play.

 

In this case, yes.  DCs are allowed to range high, and not solely in the hands of mages.  Not sure I have access to those books, would you care to summarize some of those abilities?

 

Chris.

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