Speed versus reaction time

[ghornet]

I have a character that I want to give a fast reaction time, obviously I'd up his SPD.  My friends say I can't because he's not a speed character like Flash. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions?  I'm thinking some kind of restriction so he can only move/run every other segment?

[Steve Long]

Again, this isn't a rules question, but a "how to," so I've moved it to the Discussion board where anyone can respond and hopefully plenty of gamers will have good ideas for you.

[Greywind]

Reaction time is DEX.

[Christopher]

Speed is "action time". It allows you to recover from being stunned faster (less segments), abort to defense actions more easily, and generally act more.

Dex, DCV, OCV come closer to reaction time.

But all 4 are somewhat muddeled up.

 

It depends on the total concept. Generally I see those types of Superheroes:

Bricks - high def and propably STR. Lower SPD and OCV/DCV. Does not need to abort that often. Due to low actions they and high Rec (for Stun) they don't have much issues with Endurance.

Martial Artist - mid level SPD, top OCV/DCV, low Defense. Can somewhat rely on his DCV unless he lowered it or is attacked with AoE.

Speedster - top level SPD, moderate level OCV/DCV, low to moderate Defenses. They have the most action time. And they are at least as tough as blasters. But they have to abort a more then most other groups.

Rest - usually low to mid SPD, moderate CV, medium Defenses. These guys simply have to many points tied in other powers (and Frameworks) for fancy amounts of CV/SPD/End and the like.

 

Also one question is where you would stand on the chart compared to others. Too much of a spread (say SPD 5-7) could be an issue. Some would have too much "Spotlight" with too many actions. And too high a spread also makes coordinating Combat harder.

 

There are rules for limited SPD somewhere in the rules. They shorten too: Write down all the segments from the total sum of SPD's. Mark those segments that are limited somehow.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm going to assume that you're working within the context of a standard superhero game since you mentioned the Flash. Everything that follows will be based on that assumption.
 

If you want to build "fast reaction time," a high Speed isn't necessarily required. If you look at the published characters that are set to starting point levels, the typical Speed range is from 4 to 6. There may be a few outliers with a 3 or a 7 from time to time, but if PCs have too large a spread of Speed scores, it can be problematic. A spread of three Speeds is generally good.

 

Speed 4 is usually reserved for Bricks. They rely on their defenses to soak damage more than the do on aborting to defensive maneuvers. The Normal Characteristic Maxima chart lists 4 as the max human Speed. So, why not start at 2 or 3 Speed for the team's slow guy? Because the default values selected put the Heroes at a higher combat capability than the Mooks or Agents, who typically get the 2 or 3 Speed.

 

Speed 6 is usually reserved for Martial Artists or other combat specialists, and Speedsters. Some published Martial Artists and Speedsters go up to 7 at starting point values, but it's unusual, and those characters are typically lacking in other areas.

 

Speed 5 is typically the catch-all for other archetypes. It's not so much that having a superhuman Speed score is in concept for a typical Blaster, Mentalist, or whatever, but that you're building something between a Brick and a Martial Artist as far as actions goes.

 

I'd look at either a 5 or 6 depending on your character concept.

 

Dexterity, however, relates more directly to reaction time, since it's the stat that determines who goes first. You can either buy up DEX, or you can buy a limited form of DEX in the talent Lightning Reflexes that just boosts your initiative.

 

DCV lets you avoid attacks, so having a good DCV would be in concept.

 

Danger Sense and PER will give you the early warning you need to react quickly.

 

You could build powers to represent heightened reaction times, such as a counter punch/ counter attack power using Damage Shield.

 

Lots of ways you could go with it. Post up more about your concept, and folks here will be more than happy to help you flesh it out.

[Lucius]

I have a character that I want to give a fast reaction time, obviously I'd up his SPD.  My friends say I can't because he's not a speed character like Flash. 

 

Does anyone have any suggestions?  I'm thinking some kind of restriction so he can only move/run every other segment?

No, what you want to do is "sell back" some or all of your Running, Swimming, and perhaps even Leaping.

 

If you buy, say, a SPD of 6 but then cut your Running from 12 m to 4 m, you are getting the extra actions that I gather you really want but you are still only covering ground as fast as any normal person.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary tries buying a SPD of 12 and Running of 0

[Alcamtar]

I was just thinking about this (and making spreadsheets  ) last week.

 

At SPD 3, the default 12m of running is spot-on for realistic human movement rates. (SPD 2 normals are rather sluggish though.) At the very top end of non-super human capability, Usain Bolt would have 16m Running at SPD 3, and only 11m Running at SPD 4.

MODE         MPH  m/Sec m/Turn  m/Phase at SPD 3
Walking      3.4   1.5    18     6 = 12m half move
Jogging      6.7   3.0    36    12 = 12m full move (a 9-minute mile)
Sprinting   13.4   6.0    72    24 = 12m noncombat move
Usain Bolt  23.4  10.4   125    42 = 16m noncombat move, Pushed to 21m

Interestingly, Usain has +4m running, the same as a Fantasy Hero elf.

 

For a realistic humans, you'd want to vary Running by Speed. An easy rule of thumb is to divide 36m of movement by your SPD:

SPD  Running  Usain
1     36m     58m
2     18m     26m
3     12m     16m
4      9m     11m
5    7.2m    7.5m
6      6m    5.4m
7    5.1m    3.9m
8    4.5m    2.8m
9      4m    1.9m
10   3.6m    1.3m
11   3.3m    0.7m
12     3m    0.2m
Note that for SPD 6-12, the "Usain" SPD is slower than standard because
of how the Pushing rules work. With 1m of running at SPD 12, combined
with a maximum push at SPD 12 you'd be much faster than the fastest human.

I think most characters should be within a meter or two of the "normal" rate for their speed, unless they are physically unusual.

 

 

[Old Man]

SPD is one of those mechanics that's really great for superheroic but unfortunately doesn't scale super well down at normal levels.  When everyone's in the 6-8 range it's fine, but the difference between SPD 3 and SPD 4 is really dramatic. 

 

Obviously DEX is equivalent to reaction time in Hero, but I've often thought that it could be split up into separate components.  And having read a lot of Bruce Lee, I think that reaction time specifically should probably involve INT somehow.

[Vanguard]

SPD is one of those mechanics that's really great for superheroic but unfortunately doesn't scale super well down at normal levels.  When everyone's in the 6-8 range it's fine, but the difference between SPD 3 and SPD 4 is really dramatic.

 

Yeah. I've found that a lot of things that Hero does works extremely well at Super Heroic levels but tends to start breaking down when you downgrade to Heroic levels of play.   Usually our Heroic level characters are all speed 3 (and/or eventually 4) with the bad guys (mooks) at around 2 and the "named" baddies on the level of the PC.

[mhd]

Right now for me SPD 3 means that you don't "freeze" in combat, i.e. you've seen some action. SPD 2 is non-combatants and zombies, SPD 4 are really veteran fighters. Which means that about 90% of all people encountered in-game are SPD 3, including most PCs. At that point, I'm not so sure about whether SPD mechanics are carrying their weight at the table.

[Vanguard]

Honestly the only thing Speed really dictates is how many actions a turn your character gets. That's it.

 

Oh and how many MPH your character can move.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I like the dynamic at speeds 2-5. as mentioned, the difference is fairly dramatic and i want there to be a tangible difference in the speed of combatants.

[Old Man]

Honestly the only thing Speed really dictates is how many actions a turn your character gets. That's it.

 

Or to put it another way, it determines how much the player gets to play.

[Old Man]

I like the dynamic at speeds 2-5. as mentioned, the difference is fairly dramatic and i want there to be a tangible difference in the speed of combatants.

I find that the dynamic at SPD 2-4, at heroic power levels, is really unbalanced, but your experience may be different.

[Vanguard]

Or to put it another way, it determines how much the player gets to play.

 

Well, yeah which is a fairly big deal.

 

I find that the dynamic at SPD 2-4, at heroic power levels, is really unbalanced, but your experience may be different.

 

As did our group.  Since, as you mentioned above, Speed dictates how often you can play, having too much of a spread in speeds meant some players were sitting around while others were playing.

 

We really didn't see such a dramatic different between speeds of 3 and 4.  Which is probably why things worked out for our group.

[TheRealDeal]

My group (I am the GM) plays in the SPD 3-4 range also. I have 4 players, 3 of them have SPD 3 and 1 (an elf archer) has SPD 4. The SPD 3 PCs however have special abilities the SPD 4 PC does not. For example, the Slayer PC (plays a high damage fighter) has a Combat Block power. This is a triggered free action that allows him to Block without using an action. It still suffers the usual -2 OCV for each time it is used, but it lasts the whole Turn, so he can use it even after he gets another Phase. He gets 1-3 good blocks per Turn out of it, so this makes up for his SPD 3 vs. the elf at SPD 4.

 

As long as the players get something to make up for the lower SPD compared to other PCs, they seem to be happy. Off action powers are a great way to make up for lower SPD. One PC has the equivalent of the D&D Opportunity Attack, so he can make attacks with it is not his Phase, this makes up for loss of SPD for him.

 

Hero offers powerful creative openess in its system, so I do not get bogged down in the "normal" rules for how it should always play out. SPD is the normal way to have more actions, but I use the great flexibility of Hero to come up with concept relevant, non-SPD based actions to give diversity in the PCs, allowing variations in SPD but still preserving the balance of actions between players.

 

If you want to simulate a fast reaction time, for example, here are some ideas I would try other than the already suggested More DCV, More DEX, and Lightning Reflexes:

1) Give the PC the Deflection Power, Limitation perhaps of No Range (so it is like a normal block), this allows him to take off-phase actions without increased SPD

2) Give some triggered actions, like a free attack if an enemy adjacent to you moves away, or if they use a Ranged attack next to you, or if they attempt to get up from Prone next to you, etc (an Opportunity Attack in other words)

3) Give the PC Damage Reduction 25% (or 50% in extreme cases) with the limitation Only While Conscious and Not Surprised, to represent your quick reflexes at lessening the impact of attacks, twisting just right or rolling with the blow just enough to lessen the impact. This keeps your DCV within reasonable ranges, but lets you still take more hits, whereas someone with more SPD would use 1 action or Block or Dodge, you always get the ability to reduce harm.

4) Riposte Action: Trigger is You make a Successful Block, Action: make an attack against the target you blocked

5) Defensive Disarm: as (4) above but the attack is a Disarm

6) +3 to DEX Checks, Only When Using Dive for Cover Maneuver plus 7 points in Breakfall so you land on your feet after doing so

7) Precognition: Only to foresee attacks only to Allow an Abort to Defense AFTER the attack was made. This is powerful and lets you Abort only once you know an attack hits you. Represents your superhuman reflexes and combat skill which allows you to predict when an attack is so good you need to do more than just make passive defenses against it.

8) Invisibility: Only while Moving, not while attacking. This represents you move so quickly with just quick reflexive bursts of speed you are a blur to your foes who lose sight of you while you dance around them in combat like they are standing still. Lets you potentially get sneak or surprise attacks on them as well, you are so fast and they are not able to keep up with you and maintain eye contact on you.

 

I am sure I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea.

[Hyper-Man]

Since you mentioned Flash as an example you might find the following link useful for comparison.

 

http://killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/WriteUps.aspx

 

I've done 6e versions of many of these following the same basic blueprint*.

 

*Flash is built with a 6 SPD (schtick preservation ensures that he's the 'fastest' in the world).  Everyone else has a 4 SPD. 

[Lucius]

Did we scare off the green hornet? He hasn't posted since the original post.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This palindromedary goes to 13

[ghornet]

No just busy and letting the discussion run.  I see SPD as more reaction time/Init than just straight running.  I've created a character that can react on most phases and move only on even numbered phases using a custom disadvantage.  He should see play in the end of May so I'll let you know how it works.

[bigbywolfe]

No just busy and letting the discussion run.  I see SPD as more reaction time/Init than just straight running.  I've created a character that can react on most phases and move only on even numbered phases using a custom disadvantage.  He should see play in the end of May so I'll let you know how it works.

SPD is more than Movement, obviously, but it is also more than "reaction time".  It is also screen time.  You haven't really told us much about your character or the campaign, but if you are in a Heroic fantasy campaign where everyone has SPD 3-5 and 5 is uncommonly quick and you want to play a SPD 10 with limited movement to represent "fast reaction time" that might simply not be appropriate (or a Supers game with SPD 5-8 and you want a 12).  If you want 50% more to double the actions of everyone else that can be an issue as you could be hogging the lime light during combat and possibly making it harder to balance encounters by throwing off the average damage output and whatnot of the group.

Now I'm not saying this is the case or trying to accuse you of anything, (like I said, we don't know the actual situation), just trying to explain that there may be a bit more to the situation than you are realizing.

[rjcurrie]

Or to put it another way, it determines how much the player gets to play.

Only if your game is all combat.

[bigbywolfe]

EDIT: Ignore this, sorry.