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creating weapons in detail


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I'm writing up a couple of devices and i'm running into a problem I often encounter. How do you define a weapon that does several things, some of which aren't even powers?

 

Consider: a peugh (the thing fishers use to fling fish around - anyone with a better name, please speak up)

- it's a club

- it's a stabber

- it's a throwable spear

- it is 5 feet long

- it can hook, grab and trip someone

(actually, peughs don't have a harpoon-like hook, but I like the idea, so I'm adding it)

 

So, do you throw HA/HKA/RKA/AP/stretching into a combo power? Multipower? How do you handle the martial skills? Can you buy martial grab as a power? Or is it already accounted for by normal grab with stretching? OK, but then you can follow with a throw/trip...

 

 

How about a net?

- it's a strike

- entangle

- stretching

etc.

 

To be clear, I know how to buy the individual powers to make an individual attack - but how do you package the powers, skills and maneuvers into a piece of equipment that can be given to a character?

 

And, though martial arts can be bought with the 'weapon' element, can it work the other way round? Can a weapon  element give someone a martial maneuver?

 

 

At the power level of my campaign (where bad guys are just thugs, they might have an 11DEX) a net or harpoon built this way can give a significant boost to their lethality, so counting up these little details (like martial throw at range) tends to be worth it to build it out.

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Like HM said, a lot of people will advocate the Multipower route.  I know there are a few board members that just recommend writing up the "main" weapon and allowing some variation in the use.  For example, build the peugh as a Compound Power with a HKA with the Range Based on STR Advantage (no need for a RKA) and Reach/Stretching, and just allow it to do Normal Damage (basically allowing the optional "flat of the blade" Maneuver for free).  For that matter, you might not even need the Range Advantage.  Is a peugh made/balanced for throwing?  If not, and if this is a Heroic game where you aren't paying points for all equipment, well there are already rules for throwing objects based on how balanced and aerodynamic they are.

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In the Ultimate Martial Artist they show severl mutli-function weapons built as multipower. One hint if you are using 5th. I think technically you're supposed to buy stretching as a compound power with the attack power. An easier way is to biy stretching as a seperate slot and make sure toy have enough base points to use stretching slot and one weapon slot.

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Here is a quick & dirty version of a Garrote that DOES allow extra STR to increase the damage.

 

16    Garrote: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; +1), Does BODY (+1) (40 Active Points); Cannot Use Targeting (Must follow a Grab to the head or be used with the Choke Manuever; -1/2), IAF (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4)

[Notes: If not counting the Constant Advantage as one that adds to Damage, a character can add an additional +1 DC per 15 STR.]

 

This was built using superheroic rules so I didn't have the option to include a STR minimum.  I also forgot required 2 hands.  It's a starting point though.

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What is even more fun to build is an attack that does NND damage I.e. garrote. What shouldn't a choke manuever add to weapons damage?

A garrote weapon should absolutely add damage to/with the choke maneuver. i would treat it as other weapons and have the choke maneuver add to the weapons damage, in which case 2D6 NND would add +2 DC (+1d6) to the garrotes damage (or more if they have the Extra DC bonus for their martial art)

 

Using this method would increase the garrote from HSMA from 3D6 NND damage to 4D6 NND. However, the main benefit of using the choke maneuver with a garrote or chain/rope weapon is the ability to bypass the hit location penalty for aiming for the head. thats a huge benefit.

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A garrote weapon should absolutely add damage to/with the choke maneuver. i would treat it as other weapons and have the choke maneuver add to the weapons damage, in which case 2D6 NND would add +2 DC (+1d6) to the garrotes damage (or more if they have the Extra DC bonus for their martial art)

 

Using this method would increase the garrote from HSMA from 3D6 NND damage to 4D6 NND. However, the main benefit of using the choke maneuver with a garrote or chain/rope weapon is the ability to bypass the hit location penalty for aiming for the head. thats a huge benefit.

 

The only issue with that approach is that bonus Martial Damage Classes cannot take any Power Limitations.  That's why I went with the Advantaged HA approach and included the Does Body Advantage so that extra STR could be added to the HA via existing rules.  Yes, it's less intuitive than just having the Garrote add to a Choke but it avoids the necessity of creating a 1-off house rule.

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The only issue with that approach is that bonus Martial Damage Classes cannot take any Power Limitations.  That's why I went with the Advantaged HA approach and included the Does Body Advantage so that extra STR could be added to the HA via existing rules.  Yes, it's less intuitive than just having the Garrote add to a Choke but it avoids the necessity of creating a 1-off house rule.

You should know by now i have zero problems creating "house rules".

 

In fact, if the mechanics of the rule i'm adjusting matches up to the normal hero mechanics perfectly, i dont really consider it a house rule.

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Thinking about it some more I don't think the damage from a garrote should be able to be combined with that of a Martial Choke maneuver.   It's the same reason a Knife Hand (HKA) Martial maneuver doesn't get combined with the damage of actually using a knife weapon.  They are mutually exclusive attacks.  At some point a skilled Martial Artist's abilities (bonus DC's) will exceed any potential benefit of using a garrote in place of a Choke maneuver.

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Thinking about it some more I don't think the damage from a garrote should be able to be combined with that of a Martial Choke maneuver.   It's the same reason a Knife Hand (HKA) Martial maneuver doesn't get combined with the damage of actually using a knife weapon.  They are mutually exclusive attacks.  At some point a skilled Martial Artist's abilities (bonus DC's) will exceed any potential benefit of using a garrote in place of a Choke maneuver.

The way i see it is that a martial artists choke maneuver is practiced skill with that maneuver (2d6 nnd). With a garrote, an attacker is able to use more leverage, thus the increased damage (3d6 nnd).

 

Thus a martial artist using their knowledge and skill WITH a garrote has an increased effect (4d6 nnd).

 

Personally i think the garrote should come with a STR bonus to maintain the grab because its quite difficult to ger out of being garroted, especially when the assailant knows what they are doing.

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Hyperman I think that you were allowed to add knife to a killing attack back in the day except it wasn't as advantageous of adding an offensive strike to a killing attack. Iirc to both in the end add the same damage but with offensive strike, you still get a +1DCV with manuever.

 

The current rules have not changed much since the 4e days.

Here are all the relevant martial art and weapon rules from Hero System 4e.

Note the bold and underlined section.

 

MARTIAL MANEUVERS TABLE

Maneuver Phase Cost OCV DCV Damage/Effect

Martial Strike 1/2 4 0 +2 STR+2d6, Strike

Choke Hold 1/2 5 -2 0 Grab, 2d6 NND2

Killing Strike 1/2 4 -2 0 1/2d6 HKA

 

Killing: Attack does killing damage. The character may add his STR to the damage as per a normal HKA. To increased the DC of a Killing Strike is twice as expensive (+1 DC for every 2 DCs that the other maneuvers are increased).

Example: Kato buys a Killing Strike as his karate chop. This costs him 5 points, and earns him a 1/2d6 HKA (1d6+1 with STR). To raise the attack by one DC to a 1d6 HKA, he would have to spend 8 Character Points.

 

CHOKE HOLD

This maneuver allows the character to Grab an opponent and inflict NND damage. A Choke Hold is handled exactly like a normal Grab in terms of seeing whether the victim escapes. However, the victim of a Choke Hold takes the listed NND damage. This NND is applied directly to the victim’s STUN — he doesn’t get any defense against the attack. However, if he has Force Field, rigid neck armor, or Life Support so that he doesn’t have to breathe, then he takes no damage.

 

KILLING BLOW

This maneuver allows the character to do killing damage to the target without using a weapon. It includes things like breaking bones, throat punches, kidney strikes, and so on. Like any other killing attack (such as bullets or knives), the character struck by a Killing Blow does not subtract PD from the BODY or STUN damage done, unless he has some resistant defense.

 

MELEE WEAPONS

This section covers knives, clubs, sword, and other weapons that a character can use in hand-to-hand. These rules are also used for thrown weapons, and any other weapon which does increased damage according to the actual STR of the wielder. The character’s chance to hit with a melee weapon is the same as with his fists (11 + OCV - TARGET’S DCV), PLUS ANY APPROPRIATE modifiers. Some melee weapons add or subtract from the attacker’s OCV or DCV.

 

DAMAGE OF MELEE WEAPON

Each weapon does the amount of damage listed next to it on the chart. This damage can be physical or energy, and can be normal damage or killing damage. This damage can be increased, according to the character’s STR.

 

SUPERHEROIC CAMPAIGNS

In superheroic campaigns, the character should build the weapons using Character Points, just like any other attack. Weapons are normally built as an Hand-to-Hand Attack or Killing Attack (Hand-to-hand), along with the Power Limitations Focus and Reduced Endurance. For Killing Attacks, the character can add one DC per 5 points of STR, up to double the damage of the weapon (just like a regular HKA). For attacks that do normal damage, the character adds the damage to his STR damage. In either case, the END cost is determined normally for the weapon, and the character must also pay END for the STR used to wield it.

 

Characters in superheroic campaigns cannot usually carry a weapon around with them unless they pay the points for it. They can, of course, pick up a normal weapon and use it in combat. In this case, the GM should use the rules for heroic campaigns, below.

 

HEROIC CAMPAIGNS

In heroic campaigns, weapons have a STR Minimum to wield. The character takes -1 OCV for every 5 points below the STR Minimum. A character can also add 1 Damage Class for every 5 STR above the STR Minimum, up to a maximum of twice the weapon’s Damage Class. This rule applies to weapons that do normal damage and to weapons that do killing damage.

 

To wield these weapons costs END (endurance): 1 END for every 5 STR.

Example: Drak the Barbarian has a 18 STR, and wields a dagger. The dagger has a STR Min of 8, so Drak takes no penalty for using the weapon. In addition, he can add up to 2 DC to the dagger’s damage, raising its DC from 1d6-1 to 1d6+1. He could not raise the damage any higher (by doing a haymaker, for example) because he is already at twice the weapon’s Damage Class.

 

The STR Min of a 1 1/2 Handed Weapon is -2 less than calculated when used in 2 hands. A character may add 1 Damage Class to a melee weapon for every 5 points his STR exceeds the weapon’s STR Min. The DamaGE CLASS OF THE weapon may never be more than doubled for excess STR, Combat Levels, and Maneuver Bonuses.

 

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forgot to inclue this part:

 

+1 DC (Damage Class): This option is limited to characters in superheroic campaigns; characters in heroic campaigns can only buy this with special permission from the GM. This allows the character to increase the damage and/or efficiency of his martial arts. Each additional +1DC will add +1d6 of damage to a martial attack that does normal damage or +1/2 d6 for a martial attack that does NND damage. Each +2 DC will add 1 Damage Class to a martial attack that does killing damage. Each +1 DC will also add +5 to the calculated STR for Martial Grabs, Disarms, and Escapes. The additional DCs have no effect on purely defensive maneuvers like Martial Block and Martial Dodge.

 

 

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For the most part 5e, 5er and 6e have just added on top of these rules.  This includes explicit restrictions on combining a Killing Strike with a weapon and putting Limitations on Martial Damage Classes.  These rules were assumed in 4e as well, but were just not spelled out explicitly the way they were in 5e and 6e.

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Yes Hyperman it says it allows to use a killing attack unarmed but I dont see a restriction of then allowing a weapon to add to it for increased damage.

 

I apologize in advance because I don't know how to say this without it sounding snarky.

 

4e did not attempt to cover every possible combination of the rules explicitly.  It did it in a much more subtle manner. You have to look at all the rules on the subject as a whole and think about what they were intended to model.  A Martial Killing Strike was never intended to be used with a weapon.  A Martial Strike was intended to be used with weapons.  I could easily provide examples of this from later editions but I don't see the point.

 

The repeated edge case issues like this were part of the reason Steve Long had to increase the page count in each subsequent edition (5e, 5er and 6e). 

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