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Broad Fantasy Archetypes: Paladin and Cleric


Christougher

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Setting aside the flavor and setting specifics of what differentiates them, and going straight to the Hero mechanics of the question:  How does one differentiate between a warrior with some holy magic and a holy mage with some weapons skills?

 

This comes up as several character ideas I've been tinkering with combine fighting and spellcasting, and due to Hero's flexibility and classlessness, not being sure which of the two descriptions would be more correct.  So, how would you "classify" a difference?  Best I could guess was a one-third/two-thirds split line between fighting and spellcasting.

 

Chris.

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Personally, I see no need to differentiate at all.

 

But for the sake of it -- perhaps a cleric is one who has had more-or-less formal theological education, while a paladin could be more of a person with a warrior's background who is especially devout ... The mechanics play second fiddle to the character.

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Agreed.  The stats, skills, and spells could be almost identical.  But as I see it the paladin would be a warrior first and foremost, smiting the unholy and thereby protecting the sheep.  Whereas the cleric would be more interested in healing, preaching, proselytization, and the general well-being of the sheep, and any combat would be incidental.

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The problem here is that a Cleric can be defined in may ways.  A crusading warrior-priest.  A wandering prophet.  A Shepherd of the local parish.  A penitent monk.  Depending on how you define your cleric will determine the difference between them and and a Paladin.  A Paladin is generally described as a holy warrior.  We can assume here that the template for such types of characters are the various holy fighting orders of early medieval Europe which rose to prominence during the Crusades.  This means the typical vision of the Paladin is of a Knightly order of fighting men that take their orders from a religious organization, rather than a governmental body such as a king or emperor.  Their code of conduct should be configured very similar to the rules of chivalry, but utilizing the morality rules of their religion.  This will customize their psychological complications based on the focus of their deity or pantheon.

 

Clerics will have similar complications, but less martially oriented.  There's will be a general set of guidelines that dictate the morality they must follow, but won't necessarily be oriented toward combat scenarios.

 

Their skills will vary.  Paladin's of course leaning toward martial pursuits.  The Cleric can go several ways...from the martial to the monastic and anything in between.  However there will almost always be some emphasis on PRE based skills.

 

Their powers will likely differ considerably.  Clerics will almost always have an emphasis on Healing, Protection and Information.  Paladins will concentrate on combat magic with some minor healing ability mixed in.  There can also be a difference between how the magic of the Cleric vs the Paladin manifests.  The Cleric will have classical "Divine" spells.  They will gain a large collection of many invocations and prayers they can call upon.  The Paladin can develop what I would call "Divine Gifts" which would likely be written up as Talents, rather than full-blown spell-casting capability.  In D&D, Paladin't have limited spell casting capabilities that are not obtained until the paladin reaches a higher experience level, and their spell casting is severely limited compared to the full fledged Cleric.  In Rolemaster, Paladins are considered "Semi-spell users" and have far fewer spells than a full fledged spell caster and their spells tend to be of lesser power in general for the same level of experience.  I would represent this by having the Paladins Divine Gifts have a much lower Active Point limit than the spells of Clerics (or full Magic Users in general)

 

of course, this being HERO, it's not unheard of for a Paladin to be ordained into the clergy and thus gain access to full Divine Magic and vice versa, for a Warrior Cleric to be indoctrinated into the Warrior Orders of the Faith and learn a few Divine Gifts to aid them in their Crusade.  At which point call them what you will, just watch what you call them to their face!

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Paladins are more interested in kicking butt for the gods, and clerics are more interested in caring for the gods' worshippers, but I don't think there's a clear, "Here is something one of them would never do." It's a question of emphasis.

 

And it's that emphasis, as measured in character points, that I'm trying to figure out.  Or is the general implication of the thread that one could play a cleric or a paladin with the same character sheet?

 

Chris.

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Cleric would have more points invested in magic and however you are representing Turn Undead (PRE Attack? RKA that only affects undead? Some other form?) whereas I can see a Paladin investing points in CSLs, a 'Smite Evil' option (RKA no range only affects 'evil' beings), and possibly a martial arts package to represent Sword Styles (especially if there is an Oriental flavor to the campaign).

 

I once played in an FH game that was set in MtG's Kamigawa setting as a Kensai (holy sword). Basically an armorless Samuari/Paladin/monk. Made heavy use of Bushido (which mostly consisted of Weapon-Element Offensive Strike and Martial Block each segment I didn't move; half-moves and reserve the rest of my segment to ready a dodge or block as necessary). Possibly the most fun I've had playing non-DnD fantasy genre.

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Or is the general implication of the thread that one could play a cleric or a paladin with the same character sheet?

 

I think that's it. A cleric with a heavy combat emphasis might require some explaining, as would a paladin with no combat skills, but there's a broad area of overlap in between.

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Really, the skills of the cleric should depend on the clerics specific role within the religious order and the nature/focus of the deity(ies) the cleric worships.

 

I know Christougher wanted to keep the conversation to the mechanical aspects of the class, but when it comes to clerics, thats impossible to do without first determining the focus of the religion the cleric has membership in.

 

If you are thinking of the classical D&D cleric, i would consider that to be a crusading priest or warrior priest. such a characters skills and talents may be fairly interchangable with those of the paladin as there is a lot of crossover, however i still maintain that their spell casting abilities should differ considerably, with the cleric having full access to the divine magic practiced by his order and the paladin extremely limited in that capacity (compared to the cleric) with an emphasis on combat enhancement, smiting evil and minor healing.

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If you are thinking of the classical D&D cleric, i would consider that to be a crusading priest or warrior priest. such a characters skills and talents may be fairly interchangable with those of the paladin as there is a lot of crossover, however i still maintain that their spell casting abilities should differ considerably, with the cleric having full access to the divine magic practiced by his order and the paladin extremely limited in that capacity (compared to the cleric) with an emphasis on combat enhancement, smiting evil and minor healing.

That's very D&D thinking though: and not everyone plays D&D-based fantasy. Traditionally, paladins were simply exemplars of the knighly virtues: they didn't need to have any religious trappings apart from the usual knightly piety. Typically the only power they had was supernatural combat ability. They didn't even have to be "good" in the D&D sense of the word - Charlemagne's order of paladins were arrogant and violent and frequently fought each other. So did Arthur's for that matter, though they got cleaned up as time went on.

 

Given that cleric is also a general catchphrase, I'd be loath to try and pigeonhole them: a cleric is one who has taken clerical orders. Depending on his build, he could be an assassin or inquisitor, sent out to eliminate enemies of the faith, a pious sorceror learned in ancient lore or a holy warrior (with or without magical powers). A paladin, by definition has to be a warrior, but he could be a gentleman or noble, a rough old campaigner, or a jedi-type. He (or she) also needs some kind of code - chivalric or otherwise - without that, they're just a knight, but magical powers while certainly appropriate, are not required.

 

Cheers, Mark

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That's very D&D thinking though: and not everyone plays D&D-based fantasy. Traditionally, paladins were simply exemplars of the knighly virtues: they didn't need to have any religious trappings apart from the usual knightly piety. Typically the only power they had was supernatural combat ability. They didn't even have to be "good" in the D&D sense of the word - Charlemagne's order of paladins were arrogant and violent and frequently fought each other. So did Arthur's for that matter, though they got cleaned up as time went on.

And i was thinking specifically of a D&D type paladin when i wrote it. i agree with you wholeheartedly that the term "paladin" is a lot more broad than just a knight with holy/divine powers. thats the reason why i said the paladikn should NOT have the same spell casting ability of a cleric, but that their powers should manifest differently. this way one can configure one's own paladin as one desires without being limited to the D&D paradigm. or if one enjoys the holy warrior concept (as i do) then it can easily be done within the constraints of "divine gifts" rather than full blown spell casting.

 

Given that cleric is also a general catchphrase, I'd be loath to try and pigeonhole them: a cleric is one who has taken clerical orders. Depending on his build, he could be an assassin or inquisitor, sent out to eliminate enemies of the faith, a pious sorceror learned in ancient lore or a holy warrior (with or without magical powers). A paladin, by definition has to be a warrior, but he could be a gentleman or noble, a rough old campaigner, or a jedi-type. He (or she) also needs some kind of code - chivalric or otherwise - without that, they're just a knight, but magical powers while certainly appropriate, are not required.

Cheers, Mark

And this is exactly what i was arguing; that there are way too many variables to consider when one has decided to create a cleric as a character. however we must consider the impact that D&D had on the rpg industy as a whole and the fact that a vast majority of players perceptions of these character classes were shaped by it. when one brings up a cleric as a pc, most players will inevitably think of what fantasy hero calls the crusading priest. the same can be said of the paladin.

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I don't know how far you want to go in the overlap.  Eventually, the points on the sheet are the points on the sheet.  So, if you build a character and you call him a cleric or a paladin, it works so long as it fits your character's conception.

 

That being said, if I were making a template or whatever for a fighting cleric, there would be a lot more emphasis on skills especially things like Knowledge (Extra Planar monsters, Extra Planar Places, Legends and Lore, The Will of the Gods, etc.), Diplomacy, Bureacracy, etc.  I would probably be far more heavily invested in contacts and followers.  Clerics know people.  Both might have a resource perk, both might have access, but the cleric who fights once saved some tinmakers kid from the palsey so he's got favors and things like that.

 

I don't want to go too far with this, but I would think that a paladin ought to be built with more emphasis on standing in the thick of it and not losing faith.  Resistance, yes.  Environmental movement (Intense Evil), yes.  Improved Pre with a limitation: only for resisting (-1).  He could still have diplomacy and all that, but if he can't walk into hell swinging, he isn't really a paladin.

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Given the fuzzy nature of descriptions such as cleric and paladin in real life, and the flexible nature of Hero, I don’t think it makes much sense to try and cram abilities into a tight box. After all, a “cleric” of the great snake god of a jungle tribe is likely to have a completely different skillset from the “cleric” of a pseudo-medieval knightly order, and both are probably quite different from the skillset of a “cleric” of the brothel-temple of the Goddess of Love. J

 

Paladin is a bit easier, given that by definition Paladins are supposed to be warriors and paragons, but even if you go the holy warrior route, a “Paladin” of a pseudo-European knightly order is still likely to look pretty different from a “Paladin” of the Aztec Jaguar God.

 

I think it’s a far better idea to define the character by what the PC and GM agree is suitable for the setting, and then build from there, rather than trying to pigeonhole them. If you want to call your PC a paladin and the name fits, then why not?

 

As an example, I like the holy warrior archetype and have played multiple variants on it in my time, but the right now, I am playing two D&D games: the most hidebound of all “archetype-based” systems. In one, I am playing a “Paladin” – not a knight in shining armour, but a lightly-armoured martial artist type, who wanders the land “doing good”. Your basic mysterious stranger type. The concept there is not “medieval knight” but an anime- or wuxia-style shih or swordmaster who pops up, kills the bad guys or rights the wrongs and then moves on. But he’s still very much a paladin, for all of that.

 

Of course, it’s never a bad thing to build “packages” to help the players build their characters and the GM to assemble NPCs in a hurry: maybe that’s where we should be looking?  For example, for the character above, you could build a Hero version that looked roughly like.

 

  1. Light fighter package (enhanced DEX, STR, weapon and armour FAM, CSLs)
  2. Martial artist (enhanced DEX, STR, Stealth, Acrobatics, appropriate KS’s, Martial arts powers, CSLs)
  3. Acolyte package (appropriate KS’s, minor magic VPP)

 

You could build a more standard paladin along the same lines by replacing the light fighter package with a heavy fighter package, and then filling in the gaps with points as you feel inclined.

 

Cheers, Mark

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I've always taken the paladin as a warrior who gains special benefits from his spiritual excellence. They are saints, whatever the spiritual tradition you, or the game universe, follows, means by that word.

 

The tricky part is defining "spiritual excellence." If holiness exists in an enchanted universe, a paladin can work miracles, especially of healing. If spirituality is a practice, than spiritual excellence means excellent practice, and your kung fu is strong. The modern default makes "faith" something that the believer must hold onto in the face of rampant secularism, and the paladin becomes a person whose immovable convictions somehow make them a better warrior. (I think that this is best modelled by the old "protection from evil" aura, and immunity to fear magic sometimes seen in paladin packages.

 

If you don't want to get into that, assume the default setting and give the paladin some Limitations to go with a Deadly Strike, and Hands of a Healer. My understanding is that this is a default to the "enchanted universe" model, and paladins, being saints, have the power to work miracles. 

 

Clerics, on the other hand, are authorised practitioners of cult, and not necessarily spiritually excellent practitioners of cult. (That is, clerics, unlike paladins, do not have to be saints.) Their ability to perform divine magic flows from this role as practitioners of cult. If they can "cast" marriage, surely they can perform exorcisms. If they carry out sacrifices, surely they can read the omens and foretell or influence the future. There are numerous spells that we are in general agreement that clerics should be able to cast, such as Control Weather, Holy Word and Cure Light Wounds, so it is not much of a stretch to extend their spell list to get, say, Flight and Alter Reality into it. 

 

Should paladins be able to cast clerical spells? Does your paladin have the  power to perform marriages? This, it strikes me, is what multiclassing is for.

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The problem with this is that 1) multiclassing is a D&D thing and 2) the original source material that D&D (and the rest of us) draw on doesn't really match up with this. Galahad for example is the perfect paladin - he's the only guy who can kick Lancelot's butt in a fair fight, so he's generally reckoned to be Europe's best warrior. However, he also has high level cleric magic powers: he repairs a broken sword with a touch, heals wounds unhealable by lesser clerics, summons magical transport, talks directly (and regularly) with God, etc. Lancelot - also described as a paladin - has no magical powers at all. He just hits things real good (he even hits on the queen, but that's another story). Shucks, one one of the original Paladins was Archbishop Turpin who was ... yup, a "cleric".

 

OK, Mallory, Einhard and the rest probably didn't have class balance in mind when they wrote these stories, but the point is still clear: until the sage of Lake Geneva wrote his version, "Paladin" didn't automatically mean fighter-with-some-divine-magic, and high level divine powers were not restricted to "clerics". And if you look at fiction or games/movies outside our narrow clique it still doesn't. Clerics do seem to have more or less gotten a lock on healing, but in anime, Paladin can mean "Magical fighting girl with cat" or "Bizarre spellcaster with many knives". In a lot of online games, or fiction it can just mean "Heavy fighter" or "Knight".

 

cheers, Mark

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