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HERO Basic vs Champions Complete


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Right now I'm pondering the differences between the two. I've got 5th Revised and Sidekick, so I'm familiar with the idea that one is everything and a bag of chips, while the other one is streamline and missing a fair bit of stuff. But what I'm not sure of is how much stuff is Basic missing, and what stuff specifically? I find that I don't use most of the rules in the full version of 5th, so I don't know if 6th would be any different.

 

Also, after 5+ years since 6th's release, how is it? First impressions are great and all, but I'm more curious about the "long haul" perspective.

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There are some older threads that go into detail on this. 

 

Off the top of my head, the things that stand out as missing are the Combat Luck Talent, the VPP Framework and the Resistant Advantage.  I am sure there are others. 

 

This also came up when The Monster Hunter International Employee Handbook and RPG came out.  It is an all-in-one hardback based on the series of novels of the same name.  It contains the Hero System Basic Rules plus copiuous setting information including character and creature writeups.  The disconcerting part is that several of the creatures have abilities not explained in the Basic Rules (like the afformentioned Resistant Advantage if my memory serves me). 

 

Champions complete gives more rules-bang for the buck and is notable for being written by a board member instead of Steve Long (who wrote both the full Hero System 6e 1&2 books as well as Hero System Basic).  I think Champions Complete manages to reduce page count without reducing content as much as Basic did (it's hard to be your own editor, it's usually much easier to edit somebody else's work).

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There are some older threads that go into detail on this. 

 

Off the top of my head, the things that stand out as missing are the Combat Luck Talent, the VPP Framework and the Resistant Advantage.  I am sure there are others. 

My search-fu was weak. I tried with Google and Bing, and couldn't find specifics :(

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regarding 6th.  Overall I like it better.  I find some stuff to be missed opportunities, and what have you.  The change in NCM is the biggest jarring thing, and after I played it I loved it.  Comeliness being gone is disappointing, I would have rather seen it getting the advantages distinctive looks got, but overall I like it

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I saw 6th Basic on DriveThru for the very reasonable price of $15. Hey, that's very reasonable, right? :D

 

I'm looking forward to getting into it. Nobody in my HERO group has any experience with 6th, and the second group I've started playing with has no HERO experience at all. I'm running a Tail Spin-esque game with Marvel Heroic Roleplaying right now, but they said they'd like to do a supers game after :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm not a fan of Hero Basic (or 5ed Sidekick). They intentionally left out key elements - like VPPs - that make it difficult to play any published Hero material. We had one player in my group who bought Basic, and found the omissions extremely frustrating. As I understand it, the idea was to hook people in but give them a reason to buy the Big Books; but I don't think that worked well either from a game standpoint or from a business/marketing standpoint.

 

I am a big fan Champions Complete - I think they did a great job of keeping all the key game elements, but just shortening the descriptions & examples.

 

As for 6ed itself...depends who you ask. I'm a big fan, but there are a lot of people who didn't like the changes they made.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm not a fan of Hero Basic (or 5ed Sidekick). They intentionally left out key elements - like VPPs - that make it difficult to play any published Hero material. We had one player in my group who bought Basic, and found the omissions extremely frustrating. As I understand it, the idea was to hook people in but give them a reason to buy the Big Books; but I don't think that worked well either from a game standpoint or from a business/marketing standpoint.

 

I am a big fan Champions Complete - I think they did a great job of keeping all the key game elements, but just shortening the descriptions & examples.

 

As for 6ed itself...depends who you ask. I'm a big fan, but there are a lot of people who didn't like the changes they made.

 

We've used Sidekick as a quick reference for a Heroic-level game (specifically Fantasy Hero), though there were a few full-size Hero System 5 books at the table as well. I have a few extra copies that I hand over to newbies to the system so that they can get a grasp of things without being overwhelmed, but the full rules override any contradictions.

 

Champions Complete, on the other hand, appears to be much like the 4e Hero System Rulebook + Champions hardcover. I can easily see running a game out of it only, and leaving the 6e1 and 6e2 books on my shelves at home. I'm optimistic that the upcoming FH Complete will be the same way. I was hoping that Narosia was going to be that way, but from the progress reports, it sounds like the core rules are being rewritten a bit to fit the setting.

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Champions Complete, on the other hand, appears to be much like the 4e Hero System Rulebook + Champions hardcover. I can easily see running a game out of it only, and leaving the 6e1 and 6e2 books on my shelves at home. I'm optimistic that the upcoming FH Complete will be the same way.

 

That was the intent for CC. FHC is being done similarly.

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Champions Complete, on the other hand, appears to be much like the 4e Hero System Rulebook + Champions hardcover. I can easily see running a game out of it only, and leaving the 6e1 and 6e2 books on my shelves at home. I'm optimistic that the upcoming FH Complete will be the same way. I was hoping that Narosia was going to be that way, but from the progress reports, it sounds like the core rules are being rewritten a bit to fit the setting.

 

Narosia is 6E without any significant changes. The only things we have done are really in the Combat & Adventuring section, and even then its about clarifying combat options or simplifying falling damage. When you look at 6E there are a lot of campaign choices to be made, so in Narosia we are just making them and setting them down as "the rules".

 

For example, we don't track END, but there is also no Post Segment 12 Recovery. That's not a change to the rules per se, but making a Toolkit Choice to fit the setting. We've made some core skills Professional Skills and added Spell & Orison Maneuvers, but we really haven't changed the rules. Characters can be created in HERODesigner and any character/creature from any product will work in Narosia (they might not fit the context/story but that's a separate issue).

 

Think of it as Fantasy Hero Complete set up for a specific campaign setting and magic system. Narosia is definitely not presented as a toolkit.

 

I hope that helps.

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When you look at 6E there are a lot of campaign choices to be made, so in Narosia we are just making them and setting them down as "the rules".

Honestly, I wish more Hero settings did more of that. The rules are so adaptable, and most of us know how to tweak them to get the feel we want for a specific campaign. But I feel like most of the published settings focus on adapting the setting to the system rather than the other way around.

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@bigdamnhero My thoughts exactly. When we started putting this together I made the fast realization that any Hero player worth his or her salt will be able to modify Narosia however they want. I am going to build this the way I know works for my intended story as I have been building it through the years. If you want to pay END for everything and have free Recoveries, it will not break the game at all.

 

Don't like Hit Locations or Bleeding? Okay, gone.

 

I do agree it is helpful, especially for new players, to establish a baseline and to not present an option. That is what APGs are for.

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This is exactly what I meant (and tried to say) over in the 7E thread. A published setting needs to make all of the core decisions. Otherwise you don't have enough control to ensure that the materials will work. It's the same balancing a GM needs to do for their own campaign.

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Okay, posted this in another forum, and realized only Steve Long cab reply! Whoops! Anyhow...

 

I've got Champions Complete on order from my adopted online FLGS. My group is on 5e. I'd like to use 6e to make NPCs and will likely adopt Hero Action Points as well (they're actually like our luck houserule). Why? As an attempt to "Trojan Horse" 6e via the GMs.

 

Is this feasible? There's a lot to like, especially if characters are more concept orientated. I want to ease this in, then start showing more in my games. The biggest things I like are no more derived stats, HAPs, no more Comeliness (or whatever its called - that stat that's always at 10 except when it isn't :P ), etc.

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This is exactly what I meant (and tried to say) over in the 7E thread. A published setting needs to make all of the core decisions. Otherwise you don't have enough control to ensure that the materials will work. It's the same balancing a GM needs to do for their own campaign.

 

I agree. The rules configuration that the setting was designed against should be the rules that are presented as the default in it's complete book.

 

Okay, posted this in another forum, and realized only Steve Long cab reply! Whoops! Anyhow...

 

I've got Champions Complete on order from my adopted online FLGS. My group is on 5e. I'd like to use 6e to make NPCs and will likely adopt Hero Action Points as well (they're actually like our luck houserule). Why? As an attempt to "Trojan Horse" 6e via the GMs.

 

Is this feasible? There's a lot to like, especially if characters are more concept orientated. I want to ease this in, then start showing more in my games. The biggest things I like are no more derived stats, HAPs, no more Comeliness (or whatever its called - that stat that's always at 10 except when it isn't :P ), etc.

 

Yes, it's very feasible. See the other thread, you'll find that people can in fact respond to your post.

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