250 vs 350 5E Characters

[TheQuestionMan]

Greetings Programs, I have been experiencing difficulty creating  250pt characters. I have gotten so used to creating full characters possible with 350 character points. The freedom of buying skills helps a  lot. I wish I knew more. 

 

Explain why GM's prefer 250pt Characters? 

 

QM

[Greywind]

Because Cassandra didn't see the need to keep up with the system as it evolved to higher points.

[Hyper-Man]

I think many GM's believe that the lower numbers will make it easier to balance their NPC's as a viable threat to the PC's.  Maybe it does, but usually at the expense of the #1 appeal of HERO to potential players (make the character YOU want).  I can make Superman, Flash or Batman on any budget but the 250 point versions are going to be skeletons of their modern versions in the media.  Also, JLA/Avenger power level games are probably harder to write adventures for than city level games.

[TheQuestionMan]

Reputation and/or Followers.  

 

I often feel that only complete characters are possible with 350 characters points. 

 

QM

[Ximenez]

I'm running a campaign with characters based on 80 points. Suck it up.

[assault]

I find 250 points forces you to focus on the key elements of the character. You have to be very disciplined. On the other hand, you can throw together a rough draft in your head.

 

It's easy to expand a 250 point character to 350 points, or however many points you want, once you have the basics in place.

 

I also use a "template" approach, where I carry aspects of my designs from one to another. As a result most of my characters have broadly similar characteristic sets, and one of a fairly limited set of skillsets.

 

Actual character building is then basically a case of plugging these together, adding an Attack Power, a Defensive Power and a Movement Power (and maybe another minor power or two), and doing a bit of optimising. Disadvantages are mostly fairly common too.

 

The hard part is writing backgrounds and designing costumes.

 

Obviously characters built like this can be a bit stereotyped, but that depends on how much tailoring and optimising you want to do.

[Ninja-Bear]

First, I usually build heroes at the 250 pt. more out of habit than anything else. Second, I found that with 350 pt., I had too many points left over and didn't know what to do with them, however, I am getting over that.  Third, running a game for my daughter and nephew, 250 pts is enough for them to get a grasp of the concept. Fourth Hyperman I do have to disagree with your statement that with 350 pt. you can build ANY character you want. (shocking I know : )  ).  A character build is still regulated to point caps (usually), GM approved powers and or builds.  Type of character in the type of genre being played.  So more points can help but doesn't nesscerly mean that you can build who you want. Fifth, sometimes its fun trying to meet a certain criteria.  I've played with building super heroes on 150 pt using heroic rules before.

[Hyper-Man]

First, I usually build heroes at the 250 pt. more out of habit than anything else. Second, I found that with 350 pt., I had too many points left over and didn't know what to do with them, however, I am getting over that.  Third, running a game for my daughter and nephew, 250 pts is enough for them to get a grasp of the concept. Fourth Hyperman I do have to disagree with your statement that with 350 pt. you can build ANY character you want. (shocking I know : )  ).  A character build is still regulated to point caps (usually), GM approved powers and or builds.  Type of character in the type of genre being played.  So more points can help but doesn't nesscerly mean that you can build who you want. Fifth, sometimes its fun trying to meet a certain criteria.  I've played with building super heroes on 150 pt using heroic rules before.

 

There are very few concepts if any that I can't make a recognizable facsimile for in 5e w/350 points, even less in 6e w/400 by following the core rules alone.  Being more restricted by an overall point total reduction by the GM is no different that being restricted by other campaign limit decisions by the GM which was exactly the point I was making.

[TheQuestionMan]

At 250pts I find myself limited at the beginning with the choice of Super Skilled or Super Powered.

 

Hmmm...

 

QM

[tikiman]

At 250pts I find myself limited at the beginning with the choice of Super Skilled or Super Powered.

 

Hmmm...

 

QM

Depends on the power level expected in the game, doesn't it?

 

I don't bother with points: was 250 4th edition and 350 5th?

[Grailknight]

The historical progression was:

 

1st-3rd: 100 pts. + Disadvantages  (suggested cap at 150)

 

4th: 100 + max 150 disadvantages

 

5th: 200 + max 150 disadvantages

 

6th: 300 with 100 complications

[Hyper-Man]

Actually, 6e suggests 400 with 75 in complications for a 'standard' starting superhero.

[Cassandra]

Because Cassandra didn't see the need to keep up with the system as it evolved to higher points.

 

This is true.

[Cassandra]

As the primary advocate of 250 Points let me add a few thoughts.  

 

First, 250 Points characters are still able to relate to Normals.  At higher levels one runs the risks of seeing Normals as ants, and accidentally killing one with there "Casual Strength".

 

Second, Many powers and skills of Comic Book Superheroes are one time things that could easily be simulated with some created roleplaying, an INT roll, and a flexible GM.  

 

Third, If all characters are build on 250 Points, then there is some justification for a victory or defeat not based on overwhelming power.  The villains win because they cheat, and the heroes have to work to win while maintaining their ethics.  This leads to good roleplaying.

 

Fourth, Consider that most characters aren't really that powerful in the comics.  Any that seem to have an overwhelming advantage also have a major weakness, or rely on some device.  Remember, a -1/4 limitation means the character will not have that power one out of four times, and a -1/2 limitations means the hero won't have it half the time.  

 

Fifth, The more powerful the heroes are the more powerful the villains have to be to keep up.  Does anyone think that Gotham City could survive a 1000 Points Joker?

 

350 Points characters can represent established heroes or villains in a 250 Points campaign, those that have been around awhile.  The extra points would go for vehicles, bases, and followers along with various perks.

[massey]

I disagree with some of the above statements.

 

A lot of point totals are subjective.  They are campaign-specific and depend a lot on the dynamics of the group and the attitudes of the GM.

 

For example, let's say we want to build the Lou Ferrigno version of the Hulk, from the TV series in the late 70s, early 80s.  At the low end, the Hulk could be as little as a 100 point character.

 

Str 30

Dex 10

Con 20

Body 15

Int 5

Ego 5

Pre 20

Com 8

 

PD 20

ED 20

Spd 3

Rec 10

End 40

Stun 40

 

5/5 DR

Rapid Healing

 

That's 94 points.  You can do that if you want, but your Incredible Hulk is going to have to fight villains who are, at most, 25 point normals.  Master ninjas end up with a 12 Dex and a 3 Spd, because everyone suffered from a low special effects budget back then.  If you are looking for that type of stat compression, that's fine, but it's going to make a lot of normals look exactly the same.

 

The lower the points you go (and admittedly this is an extreme example), the more compromises you have to have.

[Greywind]

1) Characters relate or don't relate on the whim of the player.

 

2) Hero has the Power skill for that. Otherwise, there's too much of "making up abilities as I go along". I'd rather have more definition to the abilities upfront.

 

3) Not all villains cheat. Some actually have their own code of ethics that they work by. Captain Mercenary won't do anything unless he has been paid in advance, unless it involves protecting his own hide.

 

4) Times have changed. The characters are really that powerful any more.

 

5) There is a flaw in your logic. Nowhere does there have to be parity between the heroes and the villains. Given your example and applying it to a game, if there is parity, then the Joker will always equal Batman. What happens when Batman happens to have Robin, Nightwing, Spoiler and Batgirl in tow? You now have your 250 point Joker taking a 1250 point beating, if all the heroes are also equal.

 

And lastly, some characters actual powers ramp up, becoming more effective, limitations falling off, etc. Most heroes, being loners, wouldn't be caught dead with followers and hate that they might have a fan club. After all, Mr. Incredible's arch-nemesis started off as "Incrediboy".

[Ninja-Bear]

One thing I do from going from 250 pt. to 350 pt. is to broaden the skill, perks, & special abilities that I wouldnt normally buy because 99.999% they don't come into play ever. And the ever part is due to the sporatic and non-continuing games.

[Grailknight]

The jump to 350 can be explained by reading the first entry in CKC.

[tikiman]

The jump to 350 can be explained by reading the first entry in CKC.

CKC = ?

[Greywind]

Conquerors, Killers and Crooks

[assault]

Whether you use 250 or 350 points, it's useful to remember that starting points create starting characters. They won't generally be able to afford all the things you would like them to have.

 

In theory, I suppose, you could build a 350 point character that is essentially an experienced version of a 250 point character. (Or, for that matter, a 250 point character that is an experienced version of a 150 point normal.) But to be playable, they would have to be competitive at the higher power level, which means a lot of their "extra" points are going to be have to be spent on basic combat stuff, rather than on broadening them out.

 

That wouldn't be a massive deal if the original version was a combat monster to begin with, of course.

[Hyper-Man]

A less obvious issue is the GM's campaign decisions about how many points his most powerful baddies are built on.  In the Champions U there is an incredible power curve that hurls Dr. D and Mechanon towards 1000+ points builds.  However, just as with the PC's it's not really necessary to build the badguys on so many points.

[Grailknight]

A less obvious issue is the GM's campaign decisions about how many points his most powerful baddies are built on.  In the Champions U there is an incredible power curve that hurls Dr. D and Mechanon towards 1000+ points builds.  However, just as with the PC's it's not really necessary to build the badguys on so many points.

 

The problem with that is CKC was the official game universe. By upping the power levels so much, it encouraged and endorsed power creep. 

 

Campaigns start out with the idea that the PC's will grow to match the bigger threats. But how do you grow to face Destroyer or Takofanes? Someday you want to deal them a decisive defeat rather than sneaking around them and spoiling their plans. There weren't even any canon NPC's who could confront them directly, so higher starting power levels were necessary to fill in the gaps in the world.

 

If the boost had been only to the two apex villains, then we could have glossed it over. But it was evident in the second tier master villains as well.

Gravitar, Holocaust, Mechanon and Firewing were all more powerful than any 4th edition master, other than Destroyer. The only big threats that didn't get a boost were Eurostar.

 

And it showed up in the world in other ways. Military weapons were increased greatly( to be fair this was an honest attempt to keep pace with real world advances) and military armors scaled to extreme levels to keep up. It was a bunch of little things, but you ended up with more powerful individuals who were less powerful relative to the world.

[TheQuestionMan]

How many of your Champions campaign survive that long?

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Grailknight]

Three out of the four I've GM'd.  Two of the Three I've played in. 

 

At the end, we ignored the CU and fit in some of the villains. Previously, we'd plop our campaign city down in the CU and use guest stars and travel to the hot spots.