Professional Guild Membership

[phydaux]

I'm trying to create a collection of advantages & disadvantages that represent membership in various professional guilds.  I want a guild to represent each of the major "character classes."  I have a general idea of what I want to build, I just have no idea how to build it.

 

So far the guilds I have are Priesthood, Circle of Sequestered Magics, and the Thieves Guild.  I thought about having a guild for fighter-types but I don't see how I could do a tiered system with fighters.

 

I want characters to be able to succeed in their "character class" without guild membership, but I want guild membership to have advantages.

 

I want each guild to have at lease two levels of membership - Basic access and "inner mysteries."  Basic tier would give you access to the resources of the guild, some social standing, and some level of obligation.  I'm thinking this should be about a net zero between advantages and disadvantages.  

 

At the second tier you would have more access to guild resources, greater social standing, and tremendous obligation to the guild. I think this should be a net disadvantage, but the access be so tempting as far as game play goes that the players would want if for their characters.

 

So for example if you are a basic member of the Thieves Guild then you would have some standing in the criminal underworld, some immunity from the harshest punishments for petty crimes, and an obligation to kick back 20% of your weekly criminal proceeds.

 

At the second tier you are initiated into the Black Hand, and are a servant of the Master of Assassins.  You would have a great deal more standing in the underworld, freedom from the 20% kick back obligation, but subject to the commands of the Master of Assassins and required to keep his secrets.

 

Mages would have a similar deal with the Circle of Sequestered Magics.  Basic tier would give them basic library access.  Second tier would give them access to more spell formula, but they would be required to share their own research as well as be subject to orders from senior members.

 

Same for Priests.

 

Does anyone have anything like this in their own campaigns, or can anyone suggest a mix of advantages and disadvantages to represent this?

 

[mhd]

To me, "fighter guilds" always seemed to belong in the same towns that also have "magic shoppe"s... But there'd be no problem having a tiered membership, real-life fencing schools were full of inner mysteries/botta segretes. A one-size-fits-all generic "fighter" thing is the main problem. Still, about as silly as "thieve's guilds", so there you go...

 

The setting of my wasted youth had three magical guilds, and all academies and most individual masters belonged to them. When you graduated, you had to get their seal tattooed on your palm. And of course it was the ol' white/black/gray dealio. Still, academy membership meant more to you.

 

Generally the biggest advantage of guilds have been legal and economic. No non-guild practitioners allowed, which wouldn't play very well with your general idea that non-guild operators fare well enough. Still, if we're talking adventurers, that's mostly a minor obstacle… Otherwise, it's mostly a club/lodge, because if you don't control the market, you don't have the upper hand in negotiations.

[phydaux]

On a meta game level, I mostly just want to keep the PCs under the heel of some powerful NPCs, with each PC given instructions, goals & objectives that they must keep secret from, and may be in conflict with, the other PCs.

 

But I also want to give them an out during character creation so they aren't under anyone's heel if they don't want to be.

[bluesguy]

Guilds in my game provide the following:

• Provide "legal" cover to practice a particular trade.  For instance if you are a mage you have to belong to a guild.  That way if you destroy a whole city block in green flame the authorities can come after you and the guild you belong to.  Plus the guild might come after you as well.
• Provide special legal benefits.  For instance, only guild members can use magic.  Or have the right of shelter from other members.
• Provide "economic" protection for a particular trade.  By setting prices for the services being provided by guild members the guild can insure the members will make a 'living' wage.  By collecting dues the guild can cover when a member is sick or injured.
• Provide social outlet with people of a like mind.
• Be a resource for its members - training, mentors, research material, materials, help in negotiating bigger deals
• Members pay a monthly or year dues and have to be available to support the guild when the guild needs their help.

Mage guilds in my campaign are few and far between.  They have vast libraries, components and potentially mages of renown.

 

Priests belong to a particular church.  A priest that doesn't belong to the hierarchy will probably have fewer protections that a priest who does belong to a hierarchy.

 

Thieves guilds make no sense at all.  But what does make sense are criminal organizations or families.  The best example I can think of in fiction is the one described in the Vlad Taltos series.

 

Fighter's guilds also don't make sense but fighting schools do make sense.

[bluesguy]

On a meta game level, I mostly just want to keep the PCs under the heel of some powerful NPCs, with each PC given instructions, goals & objectives that they must keep secret from, and may be in conflict with, the other PCs.

 

But I also want to give them an out during character creation so they aren't under anyone's heel if they don't want to be.

There are easier ways to do this. 

 

For example in my past campaign:

• Lierin was a baron's daughter, who had been trained as a master with swords which was necessary because everyone who lived in the part of the country needed to be able to fight.  Her father decided to make a very political marriage for her so she left.  Later she aligned herself with the nobles of a free city - very far away.
• Leisel Courer is the niece of a very powerful Duke from the same country as Lierin.  His duchy is right next to the free city and he wants to annex it.  He wants his niece to work with the pesky Lierin to find out what is going on and try to disrupt her plans.

By letting the players create interesting back stories, first player said I want to play a sword fighter who ran away from a bad marriage and the second player said I want to play a knight whose parents are dead and she was raised by her parents liege who is also her uncle, we ended up with some very fun plot lines.

[mhd]

On a meta game level, I mostly just want to keep the PCs under the heel of some powerful NPCs, with each PC given instructions, goals & objectives that they must keep secret from, and may be in conflict with, the other PCs.

Erm. If that's okay with your players, sure. Not my kinda deal at all, though. I'd consider that rather railroady, if not outright patronizing/controlling.

 

Also, that doing this with a "guild" for every player so afflicted seems a bit same-ish, never mind not really in the spirit of medieval guilds. Unless the point that this is the same for every player is a major part of the campaign theme -- but then opting out would seem strange.

[Old Man]

 

It's hard to resist the temptation to model assassins guilds along the lines of certification requirements in IT. To maintain standing in one org I have to attend monthly seminars, build up a certain number of credits by writing articles or going to training, pay yearly dues, and of course I had to pass an exam in the beginning of it all. It just amuses me to think that assassins would have to sit through regular meetings about the creation and application of poisons, or the latest changes in city guard policy. That would be bureaucratic and not fun, but the exam/initiation part could be a good plot device.

[Steve]

I think it could be interesting from a roleplaying perspective, and it could be expanded from thief/assassin guilds. Mage guilds and clerical organizations could easily have such continuing education.

 

Imagine a cleric suddenly unable to cast spells because she neglected her training and now needs to sit in night classes to get it back. This would be especially likely for highly-ordered deities with a bureaucratic bent (ie Lawful-whatever sorts of alignments).

[phydaux]

"By letting the players create interesting back stories... we ended up with some very fun plot lines."

 

I've tried this with groups before.  I tell the players that I want each of them to set two goals for their character, one short term and one long term.  Then I show up at the start of a session and ask the players "What does your character do today?" and they spout off half a dozen plots & schemes, and inside of three sessions it's all I can do to keep them from running the whole city.  With my current group I ask them "What does your character do today?" and they say "What do you have planned?"  

 

Player driven campaigns don't seem to work with this group.

 

 

 

As far as caster guilds, I'm ruling that magic is a multipower with, among other limitations, a Sorcery skill roll to activate powers.  Sorcery can also be used in a skill vs skill test to "counterspell" someone else's activation roll.  And I'm stipulating that a character's Sorcery skill can not exceed their Thaumaturgy skill level.  And a character's Thaumaturgy skill can not exceed the level of the Thaumaturgy library (mages) or Holy Reflectory (priests) that they have access to.

 

Priests are boned - They HAVE to buy access to their god's temple network, and stay in their god's good graces, or get cut off by the god.  No more magic unless they atone for their sins.

 

Mages can either buy access to the Circle of Sequestered Magics and deal with their bureaucracy & strictures, or buy a personal Thaumaturgy library for 20 silver pieces per level.  Characters get 300 silver at character creation so a level 15 Thaumaturgy library would cost the character... Hey, look at that - EVERYTHING!  What a shame.

 

 

I'm running the Thieves's Guild like the Mafia.  You get asked to join, are assigned yo an underboss, and you work for him.  He brings you in for big jobs when he needs you, and anything you do on your own the boss gets 20%.  And DON'T get caught skimming.  In exchange if you get arrested then some well places bribes let you walk instead of getting flogged or losing a hand.  You can get brought in to the Black Hand and that 20% requirement goes away, plus you will now have near immunity from all but the most powerful lords.  But now the Master of Assassins OWNS you.

[mhd]

It's hard to resist the temptation to model assassins guilds along the lines of certification requirements in IT.

So a setting with proper assassins plus some bumbling MCSE's (Murder Champion; Slaughter Expert)? I'd find that surprisingly easy to resist

 

One thing that always bothered me about thieve's guilds was their exclusive nature. I mean, it's crime. You need a a really good reason why one organization can control that seemingly unchallenged. A deal with the local authorities seems possible, but outside of a Discworld-setting seems hardly believable in the long run. Especially when apparently every city/region has the same kind of arrangement. Often very meta-gamey...

[Markdoc]

It's possible to have believable thieve's guilds, if you don't go overboard with formalising the structure: plenty of places have/had criminal groups who dominate an areas crime by 1) cutting some sort of deal with the authorities and assassinating those who don't play along, and killing or co-opting rival groups. 

 

Modern examples include the mafia, the yakuza and mexican drug cartels. Historical groups also include the tsuchi ikki: self defence associations set up by japanese peasants. Originally designed for protection from bandits and ronin, they occasionally went overboard and ended up shaking down unscrupulous landlords, tax collectors or taking on samurai who had become too oppressive ... at which point they became criminal bands. Some operated as simple local thugs, others as more sophisticated bandits and yet others as "Robin Hood" type groups. Some Yakuza groups trace their ancestry to these bands.

 

cheers, Mark

[GhostDancer]

Contrawise, some gangs, such as triads and tongs, do have formal structure.  If you're trying to make the story feel real, then the Thieve's Guild having no competition should be due to a recent violent massive win, or a reflection that this particular town is small.

 

In a large city, the competition could still be in progress- Thieve's Guild vs. Assassin's Guild vs. Fighter's Guild vs. The Black Hand vs. The Red Tong vs. The Green Tong.  Add or subtract as you see fit.

[Lucius]

 

Magi could have a guild like a craft guild. The rough hierarchy of membership might be

 

Apprentice

Journeyman

Master/Mistress

 

 

Clerics would NOT have a "guild" but might have a temple or holy order or similar. The progression might be

 

Acolyte

Initiate

Priest/Priestess

 

Or possibly

 

Acolyte

Priest/Priestess

High Priest/High Priestess

 

 

Warriors might belong to an order (as in, order of chivalry.) Their progression might be

 

Page

Squire

Knight

 

 

A thieve's guild might be organized like a craft guild

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The Palindromedary Guild

[phydaux]

Great, so what adds/disadds should each group get?

[Ximenez]

I do have something like this as a way of balancing the power of character classes I liked. My strategy was to create a variety of networks. A squire gets lots of cool equipment, but answers to a knight. Another class of fighter can learn wuxia, but they have to swear loyalty to a band. Mages don't have to join the guild, but that's the best way to learn spells. Members of the Order of Mentalists get awesome powers, but are also carefully monitored. Courtiers know all the right people, but have to keep someone happy.

 

In many societies, you couldn't get anywhere without a patron, so the idea of having powerful NPCs in the background is totally appropriate. And if the players show some initiative, the NPC can just agree to give that character a wider leash.

[drunkonduty]

Watched by the organisation.

Hunted by the organisation's enemies.

Social Limitation: duties. The characters have to put in time doing odd jobs around the temple/guild house/dojo. Not necessarily menial jobs, depending on their standing. In fact the higher one's standing the more important the responsibilities. And sometimes down right dangerous jobs. Imagine gangsters who have to go back up their buddy who's been dissed by a rival gang.

Professional Rivalry with other Guild members.

Distinctive Feature for guild tattoos, uniforms and what not.

 

I wouldn't have more than this. And some of them I would make optional - such as the Duties and Rivalry. Some guilds would allow for a member to pay dues rather than perform duties. And not every player wants to have a rival constantly on their back.

 

Perks would include: Wealth (maybe); Contacts; Access (to libraries etc.) Followers on limited occasions (when the PC is the one who has been dissed and calls on his/her buddies for back up.)

[phydaux]

Here's what I've come up with:

 

 

Priest

 

Acolyte

 

Social Rank – Acolyte 2

Access – Holy Reflectories 2

PS – Priest of _____ 2

Distinctive – Priest -5

Social Obligations – Priesthood -5

Subject to Orders – High Priests -5

-9 Total

 

Initiate

 

Social Rank – Initiate 4

Access – Holy Reflectories 4

PS – Priest of _____ 2

Distinctive – Priest -5

Social Obligations – Priesthood -10

Subject to Orders – High Priests -15

-20 Total

 

 

Mage

 

Circle of Sequestered Magics

 

Social Rank – Acolyte 2

Access – Magic Library 2

PS – Magi of the Circle 2

Distinctive – Priest -5

Social Obligations – Circle of Magi -5

Subject to Orders – Master Magi -5

-9 Total

 

Inner Circle

 

Social Rank – Initiate 4

Access – Restricted Library 4

PS – Magi of the Circle 2

Distinctive – Priest -5

Social Obligations – Circle of Magi -10

Subject to Orders – Master Magi -15

-20 Total

 

 

 

Rogue

 

Thieves Guild

 

Social Rank – Acolyte 1

PS – Order of Assassins 2

License – Operate as Thief 5

Social Obligation – Underboss -5

Subject to Orders – Underboss -10

-7 Total

 

Black Hand

 

Social Rank – Initiate 2

PS –Order of Assassins 2

License – Operate as Black Hand 10

Social Obligation – Master of Assassins -10

Subject to Orders – Master of Assassins -20

-16 Total

 

[Steve]

I think they look pretty good.

 

I believe a Watched makes sense for each package. Start at 8- for the lowest ranks and maybe top out at 11- unless there is a lot of politics going on.

 

The top end of Priest should probably have a "High Priest" package of some kind. Perhaps their god would replace lower level Social Obligations and/or Watched.

 

Any Bard Colleges?

 

How about Paladins or Orders of Knighthood?

[NuSoardGraphite]

A thieves guild won't be organized like a craft guild.  Nothing like it.

 

A thieves "guild" is an organized crime syndicate.  There are many variations of such and will vary from culture to culture and can even vary considerably within each individual culture depending on where they operate and what their spheres of influence may be.

 

In general, I believe that criminal organizations can be broken down into a few categories:

 

Street Gangs

Black marketeers (smuggling organizations)

Racketeering

Mafia

 

In general, street gangs, black marketeers and racketeers will all be subordinate to the local mafia, if one exists.  If one does not exist within a city of sufficient size, warfare and competition between the smaller criminal organizations will eventually lead to the creation of a local mafia.

 

The context of the classic "thieves guild" in D&D and other fantasy settings is generally a full blown mafia.  It takes it's "cut" out of each of the city's criminal enterprises and in return, the mafia uses it's political connections to keep the city guard off those criminals backs.  But the criminal enterprises must follow the basic rules of the "guild" and maintain a low profile or they could easily lose said protection.

 

Street gangs are usually the enforcement arm of the mafia, but it's typical of a city to house many smaller gangs that are not under mafia control.  However if a gang grows too powerful within it's neighborhood and is successful in it's element, it will gain the notice of the local mafia, at which point they face a choice...join in with the mafia or gain the enmity of all the mafia controlled gangs in the city, which is generally a death warrant, so it would be rare for an up and coming gang to refuse mafia support.

 

Black Marketeers are those criminals who deal in illegal or stolen commodities.  These guys often have the closest ties to the local gangs, as much of their wares are obtained by low level thugs and gang members.  Black Marketeers are the ones who usually have wide-reaching connections in multiple cities and in some cases, multiple nation-states.  These are the guys who you go to in order to get something or someone smuggled across national boundaries without being seen or interfered with.  The local mafia will work closely with Black Marketeers to move goods around regularly for various clientele, so Black Marketeering can be quite lucrative.

 

Racketeers are those who run illicit businesses throughout the city.  Usually in the form of prostitution rings, illegal gambling, loansharking and money laundering services.  Though they work very closely with the local mafia, Racketeers are often privately run services.  They aren't really connected to a "group" (not always true, but generally) but run by an individual, a family or a close-knit group of partners.  Though given much freedom to do "business" as they see fit, when the mafia comes calling, they generally answer the call if they want to continue doing business in that city (or continue living in many cases)

 

GM's should vary who it is the PC's need to go to when utilizing a "Thieve's Guild" type structure in their campaign settings.  Remember, that these are hard core criminals in many cases and roleplay them accordingly.  The Thieve's Guild isn't going to simply be a place where the cutpurses go to sell their acquisitions.  It's going to be a complex and labyrinthine organization that is very, very dangerous to deal with.

[Steve]

Nu raises some great points. If you have a copy of Dark Champions, take a look at the packages in it for the various criminal organizations for ideas.

 

I think the idea of the "Thieves Guild" as a sort of craft guild might be from the "Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser" stories. That's the only fiction source I am aware of.

[mhd]

The weird thing is that we often take the Thieves Guild so seriously. Apparently it arose out of some picaresque by Cervantes and it's not like Leiber's famous duo was the epitome of early grimdarkness. Which is why it's the perfect subject for Pratchett, of course.

 

Then again, still not as silly as an Adventurer's Guild...

[Ndreare]

I have in our Palladium setting game a standing idea of Mercenary/Adventurer guilds or clubs are common enough. Basically a person with a need goes to one of the competing locations and says, Hey I need to fund an expedition to the Yin-Sloth jungles the representative takes the information of what is needed and puts together a team, receiving a % for negotiating (normally around 6%-10%). The recruits then perform the job just like mercenaries in real life, a single employer is normally not enough to keep the market strong, buy working in groups for a company you can stay employed most of the time.

 

 

After all if Lord Fulton needs a group of adventurers who speak Giantease, Gobely and Elvish, includes at least two wizards, three skilled trackers and a dozen warriors how will he get those men?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Indeed. in the context of a fantasy setting where there are dozens of competing races and culures, wilderness rife with dangerous flora and fauna and ruins of ancient civilizations ripe for the plundering, an aventurer's guild where people go to hire adventurers and mercenaries and adventurers can go to find work makes pefect sense.

[Steve]

You'll generally find such adventurers guilds in High Fantasy rather than Swords & Sorcery or Low Fantasy settings, I believe.

 

Although it was comedic fantasy, the Myth Adventure series had a mafia-like group show up that was a credible threat, complete with a Fairy Godfather as I recall. The main character ended up with two guys named Guido and Nunzio working for him.

[mhd]

Indeed. in the context of a fantasy setting where there are dozens of competing races and culures, wilderness rife with dangerous flora and fauna and ruins of ancient civilizations ripe for the plundering, an aventurer's guild where people go to hire adventurers and mercenaries and adventurers can go to find work makes pefect sense.

Which is why South America was explored and conquered by a bunch of independent 4-6 man troops.