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HKA and Strength -- pricing issue?


Alcibiades

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We started talking about Indirect because people wanted to re-price STR, and then re-price TK, which led to Indirect.

 

The simplest solution for HKA is to reinstitute the way the rules used to be, which is that you can do no more than double the base attack.  So a 1 pip HKA backed up by a 60 STR gives you a 1/2D6 HKA.  That X-Acto knife is only gonna do so much damage no matter how hard you swing it.

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The simplest solution for HKA is to reinstitute the way the rules used to be, which is that you can do no more than double the base attack.  So a 1 pip HKA backed up by a 60 STR gives you a 1/2D6 HKA.  That X-Acto knife is only gonna do so much damage no matter how hard you swing it.

 

I'd modify that slightly - neither power nor skill may add more than the base damage to an HKA. As an example, take a 1 pip HKA wielded by a character with a 20 STR and 4 appropriate CSLs. He could use 5 STR and 2 CSLs to bump the damage up to 1d6, but he couldn't add his full 20 STR or all 4 CSLs.

 

There may be other methods that could add damage, but each would be limited to 1 DC.

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If you give Indirect the utility of being able to bypass Block and Missile Deflection (take that ability away from Area of Effect...that should bypass dodge, not block) it increases the utility of indirect dramatically and will be something no other advantage can give other than invisible power effects decrease in the ability to block or missile deflect.

 

I would not use an indirect attack as my main attack, but an indirect attack can be useful under specific conditions. everyone knows this which is probably why it isnt used that often.

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I'd modify that slightly - neither power nor skill may add more than the base damage to an HKA. As an example, take a 1 pip HKA wielded by a character with a 20 STR and 4 appropriate CSLs. He could use 5 STR and 2 CSLs to bump the damage up to 1d6, but he couldn't add his full 20 STR or all 4 CSLs.

 

There may be other methods that could add damage, but each would be limited to 1 DC.

 

You have to include HA in this modification to be complete. Then you can simplify the adding damage rules.

 

The largest active point power should always be the base attack.  Added powers can only double base power. Added powers are prorated for advantages on base power. Talents count as powers.

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"But I want STR to make the KA bigger". OK, why is KA the only ability in the whole game where that could possibly be relevant? And I have a very simple answer - 2d6 HKA + 2d6 HKA, only by applying 5 STR per +1 DC of HKA. You can, of course, mix and match - that can be +1 STR per DC (limitation low, possibly -0) or +10 STR per DC. Where will this mainly be used? Weapons in Fantasy games, which are pre-built anyway. What's the appropriate limitation for "only if you have abilities that the character buying the power has"? Not very high!

 

Aid HKA, 5d6 (Standard Effect: 15 points).  Base Cost: 30 points.  Unified Power (with STR) (-1/4); Linked (to STR) (-1/4); Boost (costs END to maintain, -1/2).  Real Cost: 15 points.

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We started talking about Indirect because people wanted to re-price STR, and then re-price TK, which led to Indirect.

 

The simplest solution for HKA is to reinstitute the way the rules used to be, which is that you can do no more than double the base attack.  So a 1 pip HKA backed up by a 60 STR gives you a 1/2D6 HKA.  That X-Acto knife is only gonna do so much damage no matter how hard you swing it.

Like most complex issues, this one has simple, easy to understand wrong answers. Just because that's the way it was from 2e to 5e, it does not make it the right answer. It only reduces the obviousness of the issue. 

 

I submit that the character with 10 STR and 50 points invested in HKA still clearly has less abilities than the character who buys a 30 STR and 30 points of HKA. Both inflict a 4d6 HKA, but only one can lift more than 100 kg, make better use of weapons other than the one he paid for, reliably break free from a 20 STR grapple, etc.

 

I'd modify that slightly - neither power nor skill may add more than the base damage to an HKA. As an example, take a 1 pip HKA wielded by a character with a 20 STR and 4 appropriate CSLs. He could use 5 STR and 2 CSLs to bump the damage up to 1d6, but he couldn't add his full 20 STR or all 4 CSLs.

 

There may be other methods that could add damage, but each would be limited to 1 DC.

Why shouldn't a more skillful user be able to do more damage? I see no reason the game should not allow for a character who can reliably kill a normal person with a knife. And, again, why should HKA be singled out for this special treatment?

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Why shouldn't a more skillful user be able to do more damage? I see no reason the game should not allow for a character who can reliably kill a normal person with a knife. And, again, why should HKA be singled out for this special treatment?

 

You may have misread my example. Starting with a base 1 pip HKA (say, a very small knife), the character could add 1 DC from STR and 1 DC from skill, for a total of 1d6K. Conceptually, the base attack just isn't big enough to allow the character to take full advantage of the his might or skill. If he was using a larger weapon (1/2d6 HKA), he could add more damage (totaling 1 1/2 d6).

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Like most complex issues, this one has simple, easy to understand wrong answers. Just because that's the way it was from 2e to 5e, it does not make it the right answer. It only reduces the obviousness of the issue. 

 

I submit that the character with 10 STR and 50 points invested in HKA still clearly has less abilities than the character who buys a 30 STR and 30 points of HKA. Both inflict a 4d6 HKA, but only one can lift more than 100 kg, make better use of weapons other than the one he paid for, reliably break free from a 20 STR grapple, etc.

 

 

 

That's true, but 10 STR and 3D6+1 HKA doesn't really address the issue.  The 10 STR guy is nowhere close to hitting the old damage doubling threshold, and that's what this thread was originally talking about.  I'm pretty sure that a 10 STR and 50 points of HKA will give you a 4D6 killing attack in every edition of the game.

 

What we're talking about is the guy with a 55 STR and 1 pip HKA.  Compare him to the man with 30 STR and 2D6 HKA, or the classic brick with just a 60 STR.  Ol' Sabre-Lobo is far more effective than either of the other two, and it's because they removed the doubling limit on HKA.

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Personally I prefer the old doubling limit and we still use it in our games. I do not know hwy it became optional instead of default, but it is a good rule.

 

As for making a 30 point strength character with a 2d6 HKA versus a 15 strength with a 3d6 HKA, it has never been a problem in our group, but I agree one model is objectively better.

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You may have misread my example. Starting with a base 1 pip HKA (say, a very small knife), the character could add 1 DC from STR and 1 DC from skill, for a total of 1d6K. Conceptually, the base attack just isn't big enough to allow the character to take full advantage of the his might or skill. If he was using a larger weapon (1/2d6 HKA), he could add more damage (totaling 1 1/2 d6).

 

So a small knife cannot cut someone's throat or otherwise inflict lethal damage? Seems like we're cutting out some cinematic concepts.

 

That's true, but 10 STR and 3D6+1 HKA doesn't really address the issue.  The 10 STR guy is nowhere close to hitting the old damage doubling threshold, and that's what this thread was originally talking about.  I'm pretty sure that a 10 STR and 50 points of HKA will give you a 4D6 killing attack in every edition of the game.

 

What we're talking about is the guy with a 55 STR and 1 pip HKA.  Compare him to the man with 30 STR and 2D6 HKA, or the classic brick with just a 60 STR.  Ol' Sabre-Lobo is far more effective than either of the other two, and it's because they removed the doubling limit on HKA.

 

No, what we're talking about is whether the pricing of STR and HKA is appropriate. The fact that it may have been consistently inappropriate is irrelevant. The pricing of DEX was inappropriate in every edition of the game to 6e (and I'm not 100% sold on 6e either, but for other reasons). The 30 STR character with 2d6 HKA is, as Ndreare notes, objectively better than the 10 STR character with a 3d6+1 HKA. If character points mean anything, then this is a flaw in the game mechanics.

 

The doubling limit mitigates the worst extremes (see 1e Enemies where every Brick has a small HKA), but does not solve the problem overall.

 

If anything, problems should be less visible in 6e. Although the doubling rule is gone, its most significant impact was in Supers games (few high STR, high skill Fantasy characters wielded small knives anyway). The change to the Stun multiple has markedly reduced the effectiveness of a KA in most Supers games, where resistant defenses mitigate most or all BOD damage anyway.

 

The issue is that paying 5 points to have the option of a 12DC KA seems wrong, at least as I read it. Somehow, we accept that it's OK to pay 30 points to get a 12DC KA instead, though. And it costs that Energy Blaster 6 points to add a 12 DC KA to his Multipower * - why is it OK for him to have low-cost versatility, but not OK for the high STR character? Make his KA "no range" and he pays only 4 point - less than the Brick!

 

* OK, 12 if he has to go from Blast to a MP, but how many Blasters don't already have the MP?

 

Let's go back to that 15 STR character with a 3d6 HKA. Why doesn't he buy a 4d6 RKA, No Range, SFX Claws instead? He saves 5 points, gets the same DC's and the HKA buyer and gets the ability to Spread to trade damage for OCV. Again, objectively better and lower cost. I think it requires wilful blindness to not see a pricing issue.

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So a small knife cannot cut someone's throat or otherwise inflict lethal damage? Seems like we're cutting out some cinematic concepts.

 

This is the point where we run into the problem of damage that is theoretically possible but highly unlikely or extraordinarily difficult to inflict. I think this is best represented by buying a large HKA as a power, rather than stretching the rules for adding damage.

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A simple fix that would not break the system is to simply say.

There is no Hand Attack, Hand Killing Attack or Martial Arts extra Damage Classes.

It does not break the system, if you want a "Brick Tricks" multi power go ahead and buy your HKA, and AOE stuff just like everyone else.

By removing the stacking feature there is no innate discount and you are back to pay for what you get.

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You have two pricing models, one for where it "makes sense" for various things to add together (strength / HKA / Extra DCs, etc.), one where it doesn't (energy). Trying to make those models match is hard and requires bringing in assumptions (like assuming energy characters will have Multipowers). 

 

Ideally, the starting point would be the same for both - but this means giving up on STR adding to physical damage, which is a hard thing to give up. 

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So a small knife cannot cut someone's throat or otherwise inflict lethal damage? Seems like we're cutting out some cinematic concepts.

 

 

 

 

The small knife can cut throats just fine.  The rules we suggested let that 1 pip HKA do 1d6 with skill and STR. 

 

What it doesn't do is let it chop down telephone poles. I can live with that,YMMV.

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No, what we're talking about is whether the pricing of STR and HKA is appropriate. The fact that it may have been consistently inappropriate is irrelevant. The pricing of DEX was inappropriate in every edition of the game to 6e (and I'm not 100% sold on 6e either, but for other reasons). The 30 STR character with 2d6 HKA is, as Ndreare notes, objectively better than the 10 STR character with a 3d6+1 HKA. If character points mean anything, then this is a flaw in the game mechanics.

 

 

 

Until you hit them with a STR Drain or an Aid for that matter.

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The doubling limit mitigates the worst extremes (see 1e Enemies where every Brick has a small HKA), but does not solve the problem overall.

 

If anything, problems should be less visible in 6e. Although the doubling rule is gone, its most significant impact was in Supers games (few high STR, high skill Fantasy characters wielded small knives anyway). The change to the Stun multiple has markedly reduced the effectiveness of a KA in most Supers games, where resistant defenses mitigate most or all BOD damage anyway.

 

The issue is that paying 5 points to have the option of a 12DC KA seems wrong, at least as I read it. Somehow, we accept that it's OK to pay 30 points to get a 12DC KA instead, though. And it costs that Energy Blaster 6 points to add a 12 DC KA to his Multipower * - why is it OK for him to have low-cost versatility, but not OK for the high STR character? Make his KA "no range" and he pays only 4 point - less than the Brick!

 

* OK, 12 if he has to go from Blast to a MP, but how many Blasters don't already have the MP?

 

Let's go back to that 15 STR character with a 3d6 HKA. Why doesn't he buy a 4d6 RKA, No Range, SFX Claws instead? He saves 5 points, gets the same DC's and the HKA buyer and gets the ability to Spread to trade damage for OCV. Again, objectively better and lower cost. I think it requires wilful blindness to not see a pricing issue.

 

Then the Brick should buy it in a Multipower with his Object of opportunity EB. Just like the Blaster can buy STR and HKA in their Multipower.

 

Cost isn't the limiting factor, concept is. The only exploit I see is covered by the doubling rule.

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You have two pricing models, one for where it "makes sense" for various things to add together (strength / HKA / Extra DCs, etc.), one where it doesn't (energy). Trying to make those models match is hard and requires bringing in assumptions (like assuming energy characters will have Multipowers). 

 

Ideally, the starting point would be the same for both - but this means giving up on STR adding to physical damage, which is a hard thing to give up. 

 

Almost correct, there are two models but they are ranged and HTH.

 

And they are balanced, the cost to convert one to the other is the same both ways.(ranged and Str adds to damage both cost +1/2).

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This is the point where we run into the problem of damage that is theoretically possible but highly unlikely or extraordinarily difficult to inflict. I think this is best represented by buying a large HKA as a power, rather than stretching the rules for adding damage.

I don't believe killing a person with a knife is all that unlikely. Are you suggesting that a Fantasy Hero expert knife fighter should purchase a KA with Object of Opportunity - Knife? I suppose that's one way to go. Maybe he should just have an Aid to HKA's that only works on Knives he holds?

 

 

A simple fix that would not break the system is to simply say.

There is no Hand Attack, Hand Killing Attack or Martial Arts extra Damage Classes.

It does not break the system, if you want a "Brick Tricks" multi power go ahead and buy your HKA, and AOE stuff just like everyone else.

By removing the stacking feature there is no innate discount and you are back to pay for what you get.

I would be fine with removal of Hand Attack an MA extra DC's. Of course, we would still allow a character to purchase extra STR, only for HTH Damage, would we not? So at -1/2, we are back, more or less, to Hand Attack. Extra STR, Only for Martial Maneuvers, at -1/4 looks a lot like extra Martial Arts DC's to me. And an HKA is an RKA with No range. Simple solution all around, I concur.

 

You have two pricing models, one for where it "makes sense" for various things to add together (strength / HKA / Extra DCs, etc.), one where it doesn't (energy). Trying to make those models match is hard and requires bringing in assumptions (like assuming energy characters will have Multipowers). 

 

Ideally, the starting point would be the same for both - but this means giving up on STR adding to physical damage, which is a hard thing to give up.

 

So what "makes sense"? That a character with Stretching can Stretch his legs and run faster? That one with Life Support sufficient to stand in the vacuum of space or the heart of the sun would not be injured by heat, cold or vacuum attacks? That a good CON should mean more END, STUN and REC, perhaps? Hero generally breaks all those components into separate building blocks. Why do we have this exception for STR/HKA?

 

The small knife can cut throats just fine.  The rules we suggested let that 1 pip HKA do 1d6 with skill and STR.

Which is insufficient to leave an ordinary man bleeding to death. It should take 12 seconds to saw through a throat? With an average of 3.5 BOD, it actually takes three attacks, which doesn't seem appropriate. YMMV.

 

What it doesn't do is let it chop down telephone poles. I can live with that,YMMV.

 

 Sure it does. Combined Attack of my 55 STR and 1 pip HKA. 55 STR will break that phone pole pretty quick anyway. And NOTHING in the rules prevents me combining an HKA with a STR Strike, does it?

 

Almost correct, there are two models but they are ranged and HTH.

 

And they are balanced, the cost to convert one to the other is the same both ways.(ranged and Str adds to damage both cost +1/2).

How do I buy STR adds to Flash (it's an eyeball poke), an Entangle (the harder one throws the bolos, they more they enwrap the target) or a PD Drain (Bruising)?

 

Why can't I buy INT adds to damage (precision shot), EGO adds to damage (for mental attacks) or PRE adds to damage (my Stunning presence)? Doesn't the back cover say I can play any hero I can imagine? I can imagine all the things presented above - I had to in order to post them!

 

And they are not balanced. STR Adds to Damage may be worth much more, or much less, than +1/2 depending on the amount of STR in question. It seems like the advantage should be on the STR, not the HKA. The more STR you have (not the more HKA), the greater the benefits.

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The difference is between a particular special effect (muscle powered weapons) which has a lot of ways of adding damage, and more or less everything else which does not. Energy is a shorthand way of looking at this. Non-muscle powered physical weapons also fall into the latter category, while things like thrown knives or bows can fall into the former. (Energy swords can also fall into muscle powered, but outside of me abusing that at the GenCon Kumite it doesn't show up much. :))

 

Strength doesn't add to non-muscle damage.

Velocity doesn't add to non-muscle damage.

Martial arts don't add to non-muscle damage. (Exception for ranged martial arts, which are rare in my experience. Perhaps I am a fogie.)

 

As a GM, I have to take all of the above when judging the power level of a character. Someone with 20 STR, a 4d6 Hand Attack, and the Offensive Strike maneuver is up there with a 12d6EB. If they wanted a 30 STR and it's a 12DC campaign I might have to say no. Why is this? Because it's such a strong special effect that we can't "let it go" and insist on paying for the mechanic.

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First off, a caveat, your replies seem to be using the 6th Edition damage adding rules for HKA. I believe we are discussing how those rules aren't balanced and am using Indiana Joe's suggested change that allows damage adds from STR and skill levels both equal to the base HKA.

We may be arguing different issues.

 

Replies in quote box below.

 

I don't believe killing a person with a knife is all that unlikely. Are you suggesting that a Fantasy Hero expert knife fighter should purchase a KA with Object of Opportunity - Knife? I suppose that's one way to go. Maybe he should just have an Aid to HKA's that only works on Knives he hol

 
Reply :Steve Long apparently believes this, hence Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster. 
 

I would be fine with removal of Hand Attack an MA extra DC's. Of course, we would still allow a character to purchase extra STR, only for HTH Damage, would we not? So at -1/2, we are back, more or less, to Hand Attack. Extra STR, Only for Martial Maneuvers, at -1/4 looks a lot like extra Martial Arts DC's to me. And an HKA is an RKA with No range. Simple solution all around, I concur.

 

Reply:Martial Arts and extra DC's are another special snowflake. I believe HA should be 5 points/die with no disadvantages.  It is not STR, it is the no range equivalent of Blast with the understood STR adds. Like Growth, it is a power choice for concept not point cost.
 
 
So what "makes sense"? That a character with Stretching can Stretch his legs and run faster? That one with Life Support sufficient to stand in the vacuum of space or the heart of the sun would not be injured by heat, cold or vacuum attacks? That a good CON should mean more END, STUN and REC, perhaps? Hero generally breaks all those components into separate building blocks. Why do we have this exception for STR/HKA?

 

Reply:I thought that was what we are debating.
 

Which is insufficient to leave an ordinary man bleeding to death. It should take 12 seconds to saw through a throat? With an average of 3.5 BOD, it actually takes three attacks, which doesn't seem appropriate. YMMV.

 

ReplyThe throat slash and kidney stab are examples of hit location kills usually against unaware or pinned opponents  . In a real fight it should take at least 3 stabs with a knife to inflict  that much damage. It depends on where you are hit.
 
 
 Sure it does. Combined Attack of my 55 STR and 1 pip HKA. 55 STR will break that phone pole pretty quick anyway. And NOTHING in the rules prevents me combining an HKA with a STR Strike, does it?

 

Reply:The HKA contributes nothing to this result.


How do I buy STR adds to Flash (it's an eyeball poke), an Entangle (the harder one throws the bolos, they more they enwrap the target) or a PD Drain (Bruising)?

 

Reply:That's a question we can debate as soon as STR Adds becomes a RAW legal modifier for those powers.

Why can't I buy INT adds to damage (precision shot), EGO adds to damage (for mental attacks) or PRE adds to damage (my Stunning presence)? Doesn't the back cover say I can play any hero I can imagine? I can imagine all the things presented above - I had to in order to post them!

 

Reply:And you can as soon as you work out the rules for them. Start with applying AVAD to the Characteristics and then Char adds to power.

And they are not balanced. STR Adds to Damage may be worth much more, or much less, than +1/2 depending on the amount of STR in question. It seems like the advantage should be on the STR, not the HKA. The more STR you have (not the more HKA), the greater the benefits.

 

Reply:RAW seems to disagree with you here since they are priced the same. The amount of damage added has no bearing on the cost of the Advantage per 6th edition rules. This is more an issue of campaign limits.

Edited by Grailknight
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I don't believe killing a person with a knife is all that unlikely. Are you suggesting that a Fantasy Hero expert knife fighter should purchase a KA with Object of Opportunity - Knife? I suppose that's one way to go. Maybe he should just have an Aid to HKA's that only works on Knives he holds?

 

I'm not suggesting that, and I don't think anyone else is either. My original example was a 1 pip HKA, which is roughly equivalent to a boxcutter. (HSEG lists a generic knife as 1/2d6.) Yes, you can kill someone with it, but it's going to take a few shots unless you get very lucky (difficult to represent with the rules as written), or are Dracule Mihawk

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I think slashing a throat would also count as hitting vitals, so x2 body.  Doing 7 body from a cut throat with a box knife seems pretty reasonable to me.  Most people don't actually die from a single knife wound.

And most hits are not to a vulnerable location with a maximized damage roll, are they? As well, the intent of the rules is "cinematic reality", where skilled weapon wielders are typically able to reliably kill targets, especially normal, with a single shot. "Kill" is a lot more damage than "Reduce BOD to 0", which exacerbates the issue.

 

However, that's not as much an "STR adding damage" issue as a "Skill adding damage" issue.

 

Grailknight's comments won't quote right, so I'll try to cover them here.

 

Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster were, IIRC, modified in 6e to be skill levels adding to damage, with the damage adding restrictions removed. That seems to be the most recent indicator of what Steve Long considers appropriate. Given he removed the "no more than double" rule, I suggest that Steve Long's opinion is not going to resolve the debate.

 

We are clearly not going to agree on "paying extra to have your desired concept". I do not believe the rules function appropriately if they overprice (or underprice) a concept. Implicit in the promise of playing any character you can imagine is the commitment that concepts will be treated equitably, and it will not be necessary to be a second banana by virtue of choosing one concept over another. Again, the only purpose character points have [again for emphasis - THE ONLY PURPOSE OF CHARACTER POINTS) is to create a balance by costing abilities consistent with their benefits. If they do not do this, there is no point to their existence.

 

How is it that we can debate whether the RAW for adding damage are appropriate, but whether we can use STR to add to damage from other attacks, whether we can use other stats to add to damage and whether "STR enhances damage" is appropriately priced as a +1/2 advantage on the enhanced attack can all be settled (according to your responses) by how these issues are handled under RAW? Current RAW says STR adds to HKA without limit. So did 1e - its only those middle editions which varied from the RAW!

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We are clearly not going to agree on "paying extra to have your desired concept". I do not believe the rules function appropriately if they overprice (or underprice) a concept. Implicit in the promise of playing any character you can imagine is the commitment that concepts will be treated equitably, and it will not be necessary to be a second banana by virtue of choosing one concept over another. Again, the only purpose character points have [again for emphasis - THE ONLY PURPOSE OF CHARACTER POINTS) is to create a balance by costing abilities consistent with their benefits. If they do not do this, there is no point to their existence.

May I quote you on that?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to know, what if your concept IS to be the second banana?

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