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Dealing with a lethal campaign using character trees


JoshuaDelanne

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I'm in the planning phases of a Monster Hunter International campaign. One of the things about MHI is it's general deadliness. Anytime you have normal characters going up against supernatural forces the chance for a whole party wipe is pretty high. Having had a party nuke pretty much kill the momentum of a campaign I'm looking for ways to keep that from happening. One unique aspect of MHI is the fact people roll on and off teams as people retire, are horribly injured or killed so having new teammates isn't unusual.

 

This is what I am contemplating:

Players generate three characters.

One is chosen as primary, secondary and tertiary.

Your primary character generates experience.

You split experience 60/30/10 among your characters.

When one dies you can bring up your secondary.

You can choose to play one of the other characters moving your primary to the third slot.

 

Has anyone done this with Hero system?

Should I adjust the amount of experience awarded?

Should I award experience to the primary and allow the player distribute as they see fit in their tree?

Should I allow players to add a new character when one is removed from the character tree?

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Having done something like this before I would not advise it.

The first player to die and end up paying his secondary with 20 less character points well become disenchanted. Once one player is disenchanted it starts falling down fast IMHO. We all like to think we are grown ups and it would not happen but it does and it sucks.

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PS: A more workable option is what I call the dynamic team. Each player makes his 3 or for character. But they all grow at the same rate, when the primary dies, the secondary gets the 25 points out whatever advantage the primary was rolling with. Then he never feels cheated.

Of course our example was a mercenary group so the squads were each players ripping off the Black Company. But it is the same effect.

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I think you're making it too complicated.

 

Just have players make three characters. Let each take the other two as Contacts, so they have a reason to show up and investigate if one dies or disappears. Each adventure they pick one to play, and that one gains XP that time.

 

If one dies, give the player a choice of creating another character at the same XP level, or creating a new inexperienced character and split the dead character's XP between the other two. after all they've presumably been having their own adventures in the meantime. In this way, XP is never "lost."

 

Obviously, the latest character replaces the deceased one as the Contact for the other two.

 

Sometimes, if it makes sense, you might even let a player play two at once, but then each gets half XP.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or you could bring in a palindromedary and make things needlessly complicated

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PS: A more workable option is what I call the dynamic team. Each player makes his 3 or for character. But they all grow at the same rate, when the primary dies, the secondary gets the 25 points out whatever advantage the primary was rolling with. Then he never feels cheated.

Of course our example was a mercenary group so the squads were each players ripping off the Black Company. But it is the same effect.

I do see this as anymore workable. As you said about being adults, I think people might get more offended if you earned 10 pts with your first character and someone comes in with their third character with the same amount of points. I think that first you might want to make sure everyone is on the deadly game ahead of time. (wish I could link the thread that's in general discussion right now about it.) And let each character earn experience points in the game that they play. Is there a reason why a player couldn't choose a different character each session?

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The cheaty traditional role-playing answer is that when Erik the wizard dies, the player introduces Berik the wizard, his twin brother.

 

Personally, I would just ask players to make three characters and play as one of them, giving equal experience to each. If the first one dies, the next can join the party in the next village/city or somesuch.

 

Though I do like the idea of one player having three characters they can switch out every session or so. Then they wouldn't need to adjust to a new character when one of them dies, and the party doesn't need to make an excuse to take on this new member.

 

Plus, this means all the players get to play around with different character archetypes. 

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Another option I would suggest is that a new character is brought in with 80% of the total XP of the lowest number of XP in the current party.  This is how I handle a new player in my game after the game has been going on a while.

 

For instance:  Character A has 10 XP; B has 12; C has 15; and D has 10.  Character B is killed in a game and so they player creates a new character without any extra XP to start with.  Once the character has been built as a new character they get an extra 8 XP to use to flesh out their character.  That is 80% of 10 XP.

 

It works pretty well.  Plus in my game I we use Obsidian Portal and I give XP for writing up interesting adventure logs and helping to flesh out the campaign world.

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If you want to get complicated, you can really go nuts with the idea of a character tree:

 

 

Character Tree: (Total: 135 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) Duplication (creates 2 175-point Duplicates), Altered Duplicates (50%; +1/2) (60 Active Points); 2 Boostable Charges which Recover every >1 Season (-3 1/4), Extra Time (5 Years, Only to Activate, -3 1/4), OAF Immobile Durable (-2) (Real Cost: 6)

plus

Ranged Recombination (+1/2), Line Of Sight (+1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of Duplication, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Turn or more to reset, Three or more activation conditions apply simultaneously, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x10 END; -4), 2 Charges which Recover every >1 Season (-3 1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

The character tree takes 5 years to grow to maturity, whereupon it will bear 2 nuts. Each, if plucked, becomes a 175 pt duplicate of the character with up to half their points spent differently (the nut can only fall so far from the tree.) If both are harvested at once a single 200 pt duplicate appears on a roll = or < 14, otherwise both nuts are lost and it is necessary to wait another year to grow a new pair.

 

The character may set 3 conditions under which they reabsorb the essence of a duplicate (the duplicate's body remains as a corpse) or vice versa, which usually includes immanent death, but if any duplicate dies without being reabsorbed, more points must be invested to activate another nut.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says be careful with those characters they don't grow on...oh, never mind.

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Leave it to Lucius

Thanks!

 

But joke Power builds that won't even work for Monster Hunter International aside, let me reiterate the serious point:

 

 

 

I think you're making it too complicated.

 

Just have players make three characters. Let each take the other two as Contacts, so they have a reason to show up and investigate if one dies or disappears. Each adventure they pick one to play, and that one gains XP that time.

 

If one dies, give the player a choice of creating another character at the same XP level, or creating a new inexperienced character and split the dead character's XP between the other two. after all they've presumably been having their own adventures in the meantime. In this way, XP is never "lost."

 

Obviously, the latest character replaces the deceased one as the Contact for the other two.

 

Sometimes, if it makes sense, you might even let a player play two at once, but then each gets half XP.

Simplest is best. If you want each player to have three characters - let each player have three characters.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or you could bring in a palindromedary and make things needlessly complicated. If you like I can probably make it MORE complicated?

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Another option I would suggest is that a new character is brought in with 80% of the total XP of the lowest number of XP in the current party.  This is how I handle a new player in my game after the game has been going on a while.

 

For instance:  Character A has 10 XP; B has 12; C has 15; and D has 10.  Character B is killed in a game and so they player creates a new character without any extra XP to start with.  Once the character has been built as a new character they get an extra 8 XP to use to flesh out their character.  That is 80% of 10 XP.

 

It works pretty well.  Plus in my game I we use Obsidian Portal and I give XP for writing up interesting adventure logs and helping to flesh out the campaign world.

 

This is how we usually dealt with characters dying or being forcibly retired.

 

I think we did something like 15 xp less than the character with the least XP.

 

The GM also gave out XP for logs etc but had to stop as it started to get out of hand.

 

As for playing two characters at the same time, that never really worked out well for out group but it might for another.

 

As I've never players MHI or anything, is it really more lethal than the "regular" hero? I find hero to be pretty non-lethal and that you actively have to work at making it lethal.  (This is something that I mentioned in the other thread about hero's "superhero roots" coloring just about every other genre you try to play with the core system itself).

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I will point out that in the Monster Hunter books the author does tend to Red Shirt pretty much every character ex his PoV character (His Mary Sue) and the character's GF. There also seem to be other support characters that seem to be exempt from the "Monsters kill everyone" feel of the books.

I would suggest that No one wants to spend the time making a Hero System character for the adventure to turn said investment of Player time to go to waste. I would have the PC's with lots of Combat luck and a support team that gets Red Shirted. Have NPC's that get introduced long enough so the Monster of the Week can shred them. You can still have challenging combats where the PC's take a bunch of body, but IMHO you are wasting everyone's time by turning your game into a meat grinder.

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I am on record as preferring the simple solution, and I do.

 

I know "just let each player have three characters" is the best possible response.

 

So I can't explain my continuing fascination with writing up the complicated options.

 

I will point out that in the Monster Hunter books the author does tend to Red Shirt pretty much every character ex his PoV character (His Mary Sue) and the character's GF. There also seem to be other support characters that seem to be exempt from the "Monsters kill everyone" feel of the books.

 

I would suggest that No one wants to spend the time making a Hero System character for the adventure to turn said investment of Player time to go to waste. I would have the PC's with lots of Combat luck and a support team that gets Red Shirted. Have NPC's that get introduced long enough so the Monster of the Week can shred them. You can still have challenging combats where the PC's take a bunch of body, but IMHO you are wasting everyone's time by turning your game into a meat grinder.

Also Starring: (Total: 59 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Summon 170-point Partner, Persistent (+1/4), Friendly (+1/4), Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; +1/4) (59 Active Points); 2 clips of 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Week (Increased Reloading Time: 6 Hours; -3 3/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2) (Real Cost: 10)

The character has a rotating roster of 170 pt partners.

 

 

Expendable Supporting Cast: (Total: 91 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Summon 2 115-point Expendable Supporting Cast, Friendly (+1/4), Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; Expendable Supporting Cast; +1/4), Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; +1 3/4) (91 Active Points); 4 clips of 2 Charges which Recover every 1 Week (Increased Reloading Time: 6 Hours; -3 1/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (See notes; -2), Extra Time (20 Minutes, Only to Activate, -1 1/4), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires A Roll (14- roll; See notes; -1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

 

Character has a ready supply of 115 pt monster fodder characters. Think of this as a combination of a network of contacts and a talent for fast-talking people who may have caught a glimpse of something into thinking that the monster is real and they need to help the fight against it. May be assumed to have expended a charge and begin the game with 2. NOTES FOR VARIABLE ADVANTAGE: suggested Advantages include improving Amicability, adding Extra Tasks, Specific Being, Invisible Power Effects (the ally shows up - or is assumed to be on the way - but stays unseen, even by monsters, until a dramatic moment) or Time Limit (so they stick around even if the next Charge is used and another pair of monster fodder show up.) NOTES FOR CHARGES: it may seem the character has a small army to call on, but remember: generally only 2 can be present at a time, unless the person running the game is willing to bend that rule; after the first 4 are called on (2 charges, each of which is 2 monster fodder) there is a 6 hr wait to "change clips" (waiting for someone to return a phone call, waiting for the next pair of innocent but capable looking bystanders to stumble into the scene, whatever - it's a 6 to 8 hr wait any way you slice it;) and if all 16 are burned through in one adventure, it's at least a week to wait until any more are availalbe. NOTES FOR THE ROLL: roll for each monster fodder, a roll of 15 or more means they never show up, run away before being useful, finally turn up at the end of the adventure, or get horribly killed just after appearing on the scene. NOTES ON THE SIDE EFFECTS: Every adventure the Game Operations Director should decide what will activate the Side Effects THIS time (so the player should not know from game to game) such as: using the 2nd Clip, failing the required 14 or less roll, having 3 or 4 monster fodder active at one time, getting 2 of them killed, etc. The Side Effect is: At LEAST one of the monster fodder will turn on and betray the character, or desert at a critical moment, or be turned into a monster, or turn out to BE a monster.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

NOTES FOR THE PALINDROMEDARY

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I will point out that in the Monster Hunter books the author does tend to Red Shirt pretty much every character ex his PoV character (His Mary Sue) and the character's GF. There also seem to be other support characters that seem to be exempt from the "Monsters kill everyone" feel of the books.

One of the challenges of converting fiction to games is identifying the player characters in the source material. Red Shirts are NPC's - they occupy little screen time, and get killed off on a whim. Seems like the books have one PC, and his DNPC.

 

I would suggest that No one wants to spend the time making a Hero System character for the adventure to turn said investment of Player time to go to waste. I would have the PC's with lots of Combat luck and a support team that gets Red Shirted. Have NPC's that get introduced long enough so the Monster of the Week can shred them. You can still have challenging combats where the PC's take a bunch of body, but IMHO you are wasting everyone's time by turning your game into a meat grinder.

Agreed.

 

The highest lethality (or expected lethality) game we ever played was Call of Cthulhu. It also had the simplest character generation system, and featured characters with minimal background or personality. if I write up one character to play four hours a session, and expect to play for 80 sessions, then that 320 hour character merits some up front work. If I expect him to get half way through Session 1 before being Monster Munchies, I won't be investing nearly that much time in the character. If I was ready to put 16 hours (to pick a pretty random number) into creating my long-term character, a character that will last a session or less isn't worth more than 15 minutes.

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Lucius, forgetting the point cost, it seems like this could be a useful compromise. Everyone gets two or three characters. One of each player's characters is a full Hero character, and is allowed to buy Combat Luck, and other abilities to help him survive the campaign. He should have a fully fleshed out character sheet, complications, background, etc.

 

The others are the co-stars. They get a bit less points, and they do not get to buy Combat Luck or other survival abilities. They might also be based largely on templates and package deals. They don't have that fleshed out background, detailed complications or other PC love. They are expected to be Monster Munchies. Maybe each player has 2 or 3 of these, but only one is involved at any given time/in each scenario. Whatever.

 

If the *star* dies, the player can choose to write up a new *star*, or can promote one of the co-stars. In the latter case, he gets to bump the co-star up to *star* points and buy those survival abilities. But he also has to flesh out the complications and background - we will focus on this character a lot more going forward, so his whole life will come to the forefront.

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