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Building a Skill Tree


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One of the most common devices in computer games for character advancement is the skill tree; a system by which you are able to buy skills, talents, powers, etc one at a time, unlocking later "layers" or "branches" in the tree.  For example, a fire mage can buy fire blast, then later because he has unlocked fire blast, he can later buy fireball.

 

While some people despise this system, it is very common and is useful for certain concepts in games.  In Hero its a bit unclear how to do this.

 

2nd edition Fantasy Hero (or, Fantasy Hero in 4th edition Hero) used a system for spells and ninja hero abilities which required x points in the previous tier to buy the next tier's abilities (so you could buy fire ball only after spending 10 points in novice fire spells, for example).  But it was pointed out that this was a limitation that didn't limit: once the power was purchased, it was in use and not limited in any way.  The problem with this is that a limitation that doesn't limit you is worth no points, and violates a basic Hero concept.

 

Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

 

So, any ideas?

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Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

 

But isn't that really just another form of campaign ground rule, similar to the GM saying that hit locations will be used, but not the bleeding rules?  Or, more to the point, it's like a GM disallowing use of a particular power, modifier, or power construct - yes, it limits a player's choices in character construction, but once the character is built and in play, there is no restriction to the character's abilities.

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I think you need to look at each stage. IS it disadvantageous to buy 10 points of minor blasts to be allowed Take That You Fiend, or do those other blasts have functionality that makes them useful compared to Take That You Fiend?

 

Is Fireball superior in all respects to Fire Blast, or will there be times when the Blast is preferred? Maybe it does more damage, but only to a single target. Maybe it does the same damage, and remains useful because you don't always want to burn the whole area.

 

Now, if you make me buy "Shield of the Novice" (2/2 rDEF Force Field) to qualify for "Shield of the Initiate" (3/3 rDEF Force Field) and so on up the chain, so my 6/6 Force Field essentially costs the same as a 20/20 Force Field, I can see being annoyed by this, and wondering why I can't replace each field with its successor, rather than spending points for the less useful versions as well.

 

This means a need to look at every chain, make them equitable to the players (or accept they will ignore the weak ones to optimize with the strong ones - d20 Feat Chain style), and make these chains a part of the campaign world.

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2nd edition Fantasy Hero (or, Fantasy Hero in 4th edition Hero) used a system for spells and ninja hero abilities which required x points in the previous tier to buy the next tier's abilities (so you could buy fire ball only after spending 10 points in novice fire spells, for example).  But it was pointed out that this was a limitation that didn't limit: once the power was purchased, it was in use and not limited in any way.  The problem with this is that a limitation that doesn't limit you is worth no points, and violates a basic Hero concept.

 

Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

 

So, any ideas?

 

You could model it as a Physical Complication. The character can't buy the big spells until he buys the little ones. 

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Good points brought up here.  It certainly could be just a campaign rule, but having a Hero rules Framework, for example, that helps in building talent/skill tree type structures would be useful for simulating certain concepts of character builds.

 

Usually Hero is so free-wheeling and open that concepts like this don't fit, but it would be something handy for a certain sort of game or campaign.

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One complicating factor is that, unlike most character design, this would have to be GM designed to meet the world's concept of "how these skill trees work". It strikes me as being pretty much the same as the GM designing the magic system(s). "All spells must have gestures" and "Spells must fit the Skill Tree" seem pretty much the same thing to me.

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I see no problem in "violating" basic HERO rules in campaign rules. The system itself has to assume a very generic position and is supposed to be concerned about fairness and balance. In a campaign, you're decidedly less generic, especially in a Heroic campaign. I mean, I do force the players to buy weapons to inflict lethal damage, most of them just can't pick up the ability to throw deadly lightning at all, despite earning the points... Or as a less construed example, what about non-hierarchical magic skills? Note the plural. As per the rules, you don't gain anything from having to use more skills, yet campaigns with "Requires a Fire Magic Roll" aren't uncommon (possibly combined with multiple pools, which seems another inefficient setup).

 

I wouldn't suggest that as a core HERO mechanic, but for a specific campaign? Sure.

 

Often it's a bit easier to hand-wave these things if the core magic system itself is a "rule of thumb" deal, where you've got a handful of skills and possibly perks that probably average out to what the real cost in pools and powers would be, plus some allowance to make up for fightey dudes getting some large KA's for free.

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What you're describing is basically what I've done with the Gun Fu, Martial Arts, Magic, and Psychic Powers in my STORMlords campaign setting, which I've blogged about a bit here on the site. I think it works pretty well, and generally speaking the players I've exposed to it seem to agree (though inevitably, some of them don't like having to buy things through the "tree" that they wouldn't ordinarily buy, or that they don't think are worth the cost).

 

Now that the powers part is done, I need to get off my lazy butt and do enough work on the setting material that I can publish it, so y'all can see it and further discussion about what works and what doesn't can ensue. ;)  Working on it has been an interesting experiment in creating a "closed system" using the HERO rules, if nothing else.

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hhmmm.....now I think of it, isn't "Must have XX pts in Spells of YY College" pretty similar to Str Minima as a Limitation?

 

Seems pretty similar. I note that STR Min is used on equipment rarely acquired with points, so the player gets no point savings from the limitation.

 

For that matter, aren't most Martial Arts written up with mandatory Skills?

These seem similar to "if you want to be a licensed MD, you can't just buy Paramedic". But again, a campaign rule for the abilities you need to buy to qualify for some specific status in game.

 

Don't Martial Arts themselves require at least 10 points of maneuvers (or did that limit go away)? The build mechanics for martial arts don't make it clear whether there is, or is not, a limitation for this.

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Pretty sure there's still a requirement to have at least 3 maneuvers or x pts in martial arts.

 

Its always a drawback in a skill tree that you have to go through steps you might not like as much; its a challenge to avoid these clunker abilities or ones someone might benefit from but not realize at first.

 

I envision this more as an alternate power framework, one which gives a cost break and organizes abilities rather than simply a limitation.  Doing this would make the Skill Tree consistent and more clear to build for any campaign.  I'm just not sure how much of a break its really worth to have to follow a tree down, since there aren't any practical or tangible limitations on anything you've already purchased.

Its like rare cards in a collectable card game: the limitation is their rarity; once you have them they aren't rare any longer.

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2nd edition Fantasy Hero (or, Fantasy Hero in 4th edition Hero) used a system for spells and ninja hero abilities which required x points in the previous tier to buy the next tier's abilities (so you could buy fire ball only after spending 10 points in novice fire spells, for example).  But it was pointed out that this was a limitation that didn't limit: once the power was purchased, it was in use and not limited in any way.  The problem with this is that a limitation that doesn't limit you is worth no points, and violates a basic Hero concept.

 

I've recently chosen to interpret that differently.  You can buy any or all of them, but you can't use them until you've met all of the prerequisites.  I also include "...or associated Skills" in the Limitation, which makes a lot more sense to me.  For instance, if you buy Ignite Fire plus KS: Fire Magic plus SS: Combustion at the appropriate levels, you can hit the 10 point requirement easily enough.  

 

The spells also should have been written in a tree-like hierarchy.  The most basic spells with no requirements, the intermediate ones with 10 points, the advanced ones with 20 points, master at 30, and so forth.  

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To follow up my own posting, I can even come up with a way to make the tiered Limitation values work a little more broadly.  Mages can cast the spells that they know and meet the requirements for via the tiers, but can't teach them... unless they buy the ability to teach spells, of course.  

 

You Can Do Magic:  Naked Advantage: Usable By Others (+1/4) on up to 25 Active Points worth of spells.  Base cost: 6 points.  Advantages: None.  6 Active Points.  Limitations: Extra Time: 1 Hour (-3), RSR: PS: Teaching (-1/2).  Real Cost: 1 point.  

 

By taking an hour and making his PS: Teaching roll, the mage can teach any of his spells of up to 25 Active Points to a willing learner.  This lets the learner use the spell, though the learner must meet all other requirements for using it.  Thus, if it's a spell with Requires 20 Points In College, and the learner doesn't already have 20 points worth of spells, he can't use the spell.  Note that this also only lets the learner use the spell in the presence of the teacher (assume that the Only In Grantor's Presence modifier is part of the Naked Advantage); if the learner wants to keep using the spell he has to spend his own points on it.  (Technically, the learner could buy the spell by spending the points on it, even if he can't use it, but why would he want to?)

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  • 11 months later...

What you're describing is basically what I've done with the Gun Fu, Martial Arts, Magic, and Psychic Powers in my STORMlords campaign setting, which I've blogged about a bit here on the site. I think it works pretty well, and generally speaking the players I've exposed to it seem to agree (though inevitably, some of them don't like having to buy things through the "tree" that they wouldn't ordinarily buy, or that they don't think are worth the cost).

 

Now that the powers part is done, I need to get off my lazy butt and do enough work on the setting material that I can publish it, so y'all can see it and further discussion about what works and what doesn't can ensue. ;)  Working on it has been an interesting experiment in creating a "closed system" using the HERO rules, if nothing else.

 

Had I mentioned being interested in this?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Maybe I told the palindromedary

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Now, if you make me buy "Shield of the Novice" (2/2 rDEF Force Field) to qualify for "Shield of the Initiate" (3/3 rDEF Force Field) and so on up the chain, so my 6/6 Force Field essentially costs the same as a 20/20 Force Field, I can see being annoyed by this, and wondering why I can't replace each field with its successor, rather than spending points for the less useful versions as well.

 

 

I was looking at this from the opposite direction - the way xD&D does things, that you have to know at least as many weaker spells before you learn the more powerful ones.  And the above is one way to get to that - knowing Shield of the Master (FF 6 PD/6 ED) also means I know Shield of the Journeyman(FF 4 PD/4 ED) and Shield of the Initiate(FF 2 PD/2 ED), not because you're buying them again, because it's the special effect of using the Power at less than full intensity.  It works for Ice Dart, Ice Arrow, Ice Spear, Ice Lance, but requires a bit of rules tweaking to go from a single target Fire Dart  to area affecting Fire Ball and Fire Blast.

 

Chris.

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I like the skill tree idea and it makes sense to me in that real practitioners of magic probably need a broader understanding of magic to master the more intricate and powerful spells.

 

What follows is all off the top of my head but I think that there might be some way to put in prerequisites that feed back into the setting rather than be more book-keeping.  I am against rules that are there purely for book-keeping purposes instead of game-enhancement purposes.

 

So, look at the things you think a mage 'should' learn and why. When the player 'buys' one of those things for his character then the character should gain some element of magical knowledge or wisdom that will potentially unlock deeper understanding of the magic he/she/it carries out.  So, having learned paramedic the wizard also gains 1 point in KS: Humorism which will help him if he decides to learn healing magic, or perhaps shapeshifting magic.

 

If you decide on three or four basic forms of knowledge/wisdom then the wizard can be encouraged to broaden out its skill base as that will ultimately deepen its potential for more heavyweight magic.

 

Your biggest issue will be deciding on the levels of knowledge required for each spell. 

 

The idea of the big defensive spells layering rather than anything else can be built into this.

 

There was the example of Shield of the Master/Journeyman/Initiate.  In my world the wizard would learn Shield - (FF 10PD/10ED).  However, if the practitioner was just an initiate (did not have the knowledge required to be better than that) then the limitation of initiate would reduce the cost (and effectiveness) of the spell to 2PD/2ED version.

 

It should also be possible to increase the knowledge skills by buying spells, it is just that some of the funkier spells (and possibly more powerful ones) require a broader range of knowledge.  It should be possible to get to mastery level in blast type spells without having to diversify too much but grandmasters need a broader base to actually draw the massive energies required.

 

Doc

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Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

 

So, any ideas?

 

See bolded in quote.

 

A limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth points, but that doesn't mean its not book legal. You could put "requires X points in X ability (-0) on the power. It still imposes a prerequisite on the power. It just doesn't alter the cost. Of course, one thing heroites and crunchy gamer-system lovers often forget is that not everything needs to be quantified in mechanical terms. You could also just use flavor text to impose the requirement. Its little different than a GM flat out saying "no" or "not unless / without." I know that is despised by a lot of (entitled, whiney, silver spoon) modern roleplayers, but Hero is a system that depends on good judgement and fair mindedness by the GM to balance it and ensure dramatic tropes, genre norms, and setting flavor are honored. Just say, "Only one who has mastered the lotus palm can begin to master the poisoned lotus palm..." and be done with it.

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Assuming the advancement is normal (per XP added to the character as CP), then wouldn't it be logical to allow the character to create an addendum to the current power with the CP's, and thereby amp it up or move it sideways in the same way a 'spell tree' or 'skill tree' would?

In other words, if Joe the Wizard has spent three CP's for a 'Candle Blast' spell to start with:

Candle Spray:  Blast 2d6, Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Cone; +1/4) (12 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; completely consumes a candle, a new one must be specially prepared out of combat; -1 1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; some sort of magic skill; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

Wouldn't Joe the Wizard then have the option of either spending two CP's to increase the power of the Candle Blast

Candle Spray:  Blast 3d6, Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Cone; +1/4) (19 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; completely consumes a candle, a new one must be specially prepared out of combat; -1 1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; some sort of magic skill; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

or spend two points to convert it into a Fire Ball spell or waiting to get 5 CP's for a Fire Ball spell (thereby giving him the option of using both)?

Fire Ball:  Blast 2d6, Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Radius; +1/2) (15 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; completely consumes a ball of sulfur, which must be retrieved from the sulfur store; -1 1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; some sort of magic skill; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

In other words, allowing a player to work through their upgrades in a logical fashion would impose a decision process similar to that of a 'skill tree' or 'spell tree'. Perhaps the question is not whether the skills or spells would advance in a 'tree' fashion, but whether or not the GM could see the shape of the branches before they're grown.

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I allow players to sell back a skill and buy a better version. I.e. if you have a 3 pt skill and want later a 5 pt skill, then I let spend the two points to upgrade the skill.

 

I did this with spells in AD&D. I let players drop weaker versions of spells in favor of better versions. I do the same with powers in hero: its basically a point refi.

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  • 10 months later...

One of the most common devices in computer games for character advancement is the skill tree; a system by which you are able to buy skills, talents, powers, etc one at a time, unlocking later "layers" or "branches" in the tree.  For example, a fire mage can buy fire blast, then later because he has unlocked fire blast, he can later buy fireball.

 

While some people despise this system, it is very common and is useful for certain concepts in games.  In Hero its a bit unclear how to do this.

 

2nd edition Fantasy Hero (or, Fantasy Hero in 4th edition Hero) used a system for spells and ninja hero abilities which required x points in the previous tier to buy the next tier's abilities (so you could buy fire ball only after spending 10 points in novice fire spells, for example).  But it was pointed out that this was a limitation that didn't limit: once the power was purchased, it was in use and not limited in any way.  The problem with this is that a limitation that doesn't limit you is worth no points, and violates a basic Hero concept.

 

Another option is to put restrictions on purchases that do nothing to price, so you simply impose a rule that a character cannot buy Take That You Fiend until they buy at least 10 points worth of novice blasts.  The problem with this is that its a penalty with no corresponding reduction in cost, which also violates a basic Hero concept.

 

So, any ideas?

Tula Morn (see hero store) had several magic schools done this way. Interesting enough  it was a nice hero example of Spell X is 3rd level for this class but 5th level for that class.

 

I usually don't like DNDisms but I thought that was well done.

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Now that the powers part is done, I need to get off my lazy butt and do enough work on the setting material that I can publish it, so y'all can see it and further discussion about what works and what doesn't can ensue. ;)  Working on it has been an interesting experiment in creating a "closed system" using the HERO rules, if nothing else.

For nothing else, that last bit has me VERY VERY interested. It is something that I am interested in exploring myself.

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Working on it has been an interesting experiment in creating a "closed system" using the HERO rules, if nothing else.

 

 

I'm coming extremely close to doing that with my Jolrhos Fantasy Hero setting; releasing it as if its a game, but using the Hero system as the core.  So its got the full information you need to build and play, but specific to my fantasy setting, as if its a separate game.  Just Hero only for that setting instead of a game world using hero.  I'm hazy as to the legalities and interest Hero has in doing that kind of thing but I think its a valid concept that might actually appeal to players more.  You just need these books but once you know it, you can easily port into any Hero product.

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What you're describing is basically what I've done with the Gun Fu, Martial Arts, Magic, and Psychic Powers in my STORMlords campaign setting, which I've blogged about a bit here on the site. I think it works pretty well, and generally speaking the players I've exposed to it seem to agree (though inevitably, some of them don't like having to buy things through the "tree" that they wouldn't ordinarily buy, or that they don't think are worth the cost).

 

Now that the powers part is done, I need to get off my lazy butt and do enough work on the setting material that I can publish it, so y'all can see it and further discussion about what works and what doesn't can ensue. ;)  Working on it has been an interesting experiment in creating a "closed system" using the HERO rules, if nothing else.

What do you mean by closed?

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