Combining rolls (RSR)

[mhd]

Quite often you apply a Requires Skill Roll to something that then results in yet another roll. Prime examples would be attack abilities or spells that emulate skills. Using the rules as written, the former is slightly more complicated, as it combines skill and attack rolls, so let's set that aside for now. (I'm cheating, as I've unified the two systems for my campaign anyway)

 

But here I've got this "Open Lock" spell at 13-, and if successful, I get a one-time use of Lockpicking 20-. Two rolls, and how good I'm at spell-casting (generally or for the specific casting) doesn't affect the success of picking the lock.

 

So let's say I want to have a modifier that let's me apply the roll I used to cast the spell to lockpicking roll. This usually means that I can't completely screw that up, as the spell already went of. So that sounds like an advantage. +1/4 or +1/2 ?

 

And while we're at it, what would capping the evoked skill to the Power skill? I could do something more complicated with Enhanced Successes from the APG or build a power where skill equals Power Skill, but if I just want to jot it down as a simple and generic modifier, what would that be worth?

[Hugh Neilson]

What's the build on the spell? Based exclusively on what you've said above, you have Open Locks as a skill at 20-, which activates on a 13-. If I assume you have a 13 DEX, you could have Open Locks 20- for a cost of 19 points, so the spell should never cost more than that, unless you get a result superior to the skill at 20-.

 

Now, if all the spell does is give you the skill, but you have Requires a Skill Roll at -1/5 AP (so -4), you have a 17- Magic Skill so a 13- roll to access Open Locks. How much time does it take to cast the spell? Do you have to get all the way to the end of the Open Locks attempt to discover you botched the spell and have no skill at all in Opening Locks, or do you know immediately? If the latter, how much is the delay to cast it again? Requiring an extra phase to open a lock, assuming the skill use itself takes minutes, seems like it has very little impact. So, anyway, we have Open Locks 20- with RSR (-1) costing 10 points.

 

Now, what exactly are you looking to alter? Your Open Locks roll can't exceed your Magic Skill? Then only buy the spell as Open Locks 17-. That seems easy enough, and you save 3 points, so the "limitation" has an impact.

 

You want your skill roll to equal your Open Locks roll? Buy Open Locks 13- for 5 points and note that it is a spell, rather than a skill.

 

But that gets trickier - if the lock had, say, a -3 penalty for being a very well made lock, then your roll of 11 won't open the lock. So maybe you buy Open Locks 13- and 7 Penalty Skill Levels (PSL's) to make the effective Open Locks roll 20-, but it fails if you roll higher than a 13.

 

Really, those Open Locks spells should already have a bunch of PSL's to remove the penalty for taking less time, as I think most of us are thinking "Knock Spell - the lock pops open" not "Burglar's Brains" so I can sit down with my handy thieves' tools and realign the tumblers for 5 minutes, pop open the lock and then forget how to do that.

 

You could buy the Open Locks skill at 20- and agree with your GM that the magic roll, with RSR applied or without, is a complimentary skill. Let's assume we agree that "making a skill magical" is a +0 advantage/-0 Limitation. You can be dispelled, suppressed, etc., and you get your Magic Roll as a complimentary skill. You had a 17- magic skill, so on a roll of 10 or 11, you succeed by 3, so you get a +4 bonus to open locks, right? Then you only need to buy Open Locks on a 16-. You have the same 20- roll on average, and you always get at least a 16 (an 18 on the Magic Roll means you get no bonus), so this is a pretty reliable spell.

[mhd]

Well, "just buy it as a magical skill" or "just buy it at your Power skill level" are handy ways to treat this, but as I've mentioned in my initial post I'd prefer something more generic, something that isn't an individual tailored power but a spells from a grimoire (and/or HD prefab).

 

The time part is clearly relevant to this skill, less or more so for others. Yes, I could stack some PSL's on there if it's really an insta-open spell with a constant duration, but for simplicity's sake, I could just say that's part of the magical solution, where it doesn't really matter whether a -5 penalty to open comes from the time saved or from the complexity of the lock. So a rather mediocre thief with time to spare might be better for a certain lock. No problem with that...

 

Heck, in this specific case I might as well make it a Transform.

[bigdamnhero]

Seems the simplest way to go would just be to reduce the value of the RSR Limitation by throwing on an Adder something like: [spell Casting Roll can serve as Complimentary to the Lockpicking Roll; +1/4]. +1/4 seems about right to me, given that RSR: Skill Roll is only worth -1/2 anyway. OTOH, if the Skill Roll is high enough that the character almost always makes it, then you could reach a point where the upside of "usually can add a few points to the Lockpicking Roll" outweighs the downside of "once in a while the spell fails altogether."

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, "just buy it as a magical skill" or "just buy it at your Power skill level" are handy ways to treat this, but as I've mentioned in my initial post I'd prefer something more generic, something that isn't an individual tailored power but a spells from a grimoire (and/or HD prefab).

 

The time part is clearly relevant to this skill, less or more so for others. Yes, I could stack some PSL's on there if it's really an insta-open spell with a constant duration, but for simplicity's sake, I could just say that's part of the magical solution, where it doesn't really matter whether a -5 penalty to open comes from the time saved or from the complexity of the lock. So a rather mediocre thief with time to spare might be better for a certain lock. No problem with that...

 

Heck, in this specific case I might as well make it a Transform.

I come back to "what does the spell actually do?" If it provides knowledge of picking locks, then "X Points of Open Locks" seems to work. Let's say 10 points' worth - if he has no skill at all, he gets a 15- roll (11- for 2 points, plus 4). If he already has the skill, it's augmented to +5. If it just pops locks open, then the PSL's against extra time simulate that nicely, but if the magic means it does not matter where the penalty comes from, and more time boosts the success chance, then a flat +5 bonus simulates that version. Whether a custom spell for a specific character or a spell generic to the setting, it can't be designed without knowing what it's supposed to do. Perhaps even more for that generic in-game spell, as describing it as a spell which causes locks to spring open, then building it as a skill which receives bonuses or penalties for having the right equipment and/or spending less or greater time means we have a spell whose mechanics don't match the vision of the spell for everyone, instead of for just one character.

 

In any case, why can't a magical skill be in the Grimoire? A Fireball in the Grimoire still requires the caster purchase the spell. Or, if your game runs on the basis you can acquire spells much like you acquire a sword or a shield, then he can acquire the magical skill for no point cost.

 

If the OL roll cant exceed the Power Skill, it seems like a campaign rule that the maximum OL skill you can buy with this spell equals your Power Skill. A +1/4 modifier to RST works, but I note that RSR is not always --1/2. If it's -1 per 20 AP, it's -1/4. So -1 per 20 AP is likely -1 on this spell, and a bonus for my Complementary magic roll which probably be a lot more than -1 on average, so I have raised the skill roll for free by taking "RSR -1/20 points, Magic is a complementary skill, -0". It probably works out pretty good at -1 per 5 points as well - let's invest 20 points for a skill at 20- (11- for 2 points, +9 for 18 more). At -1 per 5 points, I would pay 10 points (with no other limitations) and my Magic Skill of 17- drops off to 13-. If I make the roll 19- instead (18 points, 10 after a -3/4 limitation for -1/5 AP; Magic is Complementary Skill) that 13- complementary skill roll is looking pretty good - I'll have a 20- or better about 80% of the time, I believe. And if I blow the 13- Magic roll, the spell would have failed anyway.

 

Your initial question was "is use the magic roll a +1/4 or a +1/2". My answer is "I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to simulate, so I'm not sure how I would price this out, or whether I would structure it as an advantage at all".

 

Does "apply the roll I used to cast the spell to lockpicking roll" mean "use what I rolled on the Magic Skill as my Open Locks roll as well", or something else? If it means "just roll once and that determines whether I open the lock", then that sounds like buying Open Locks at the same level and my Magic Skill, and not applying RSR at all. Your spell allows you to open locks with the same proficiency as your magic skill, nothing more and nothing less. So why would it carry a cost any different than Open Locks at the Magic Skill level?

 

If it's Open Locks 25-, but can't exceed your magic skill, why would my Apprentice with a 13- Magic Roll pay for a 25- Open Locks skill when he can't access more than 13-? He's spending points for no benefits, which defeats the purpose of having a point-based system in the first place.

[Hugh Neilson]

The problem we encounter here is that "simple" and "fair" typically pull in opposite directions.

 

"Simple" would be "You get Open Locks at your Magic skill roll for X points". But a fixed value for X is not fair - depending on that Magic Skill, it will either be overpriced or underpriced compared to just buying the skill.

[mhd]

Your initial question was "is use the magic roll a +1/4 or a +1/2". My answer is "I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to simulate, so I'm not sure how I would price this out, or whether I would structure it as an advantage at all".

This isn't really all about simulation, more about simplifying mechanics. Player just has to roll once. Saving time ain't bad.

 

That this would tie in the magical ability with the simulated skill would be a neat side effect, unless of course you're summoning lock-picking demons in-game.

 

And why an advantage? Well, you rolled low enough to trigger the spell, so that's a already a higher chance that the effect will go off, too (unless Power Skill is sufficiently high).

 

If it's Open Locks 25-, but can't exceed your magic skill, why would my Apprentice with a 13- Magic Roll pay for a 25- Open Locks skill when he can't access more than 13-? He's spending points for no benefits, which defeats the purpose of having a point-based system in the first place.

GEnerically speaking, sure, but we're already within a contrived and artificially constrained campaign-specific subset, where fairness isn't everything. If that's how Bramblemore's Chant of Opening works, than that's how it is. It also means that you don't have to recalculate everything once you raise your magic skill. You might not even have the spell on your own char sheet (if it's handled like equipment or just part of a generic VPP).

[bigdamnhero]

This isn't really all about simulation, more about simplifying mechanics. Player just has to roll once. Saving time ain't bad.

if the main goal is simplification, then why not just create the spell as Lockpicking Skill at [whatever you want] and leave off the RSR altogether? If the roll succeeds, the spell works and the lock opens; if it fails, you can narrate it as either the spell failed or the lock was too difficult.

[mhd]

Well, I guess I can always highlight this in the HD prefab to tell the player to adapt the skill to his relevant power skill… Same goes for other "double roll" spells like those involving Detects and Universal Translator. Maybe I am thinking a bit too rigidly, damn these genes…

[Armitage]

The Advanced Player's Guide 1 had two modifiers for Requires A Skill Roll that could be relevant.

 

Enhanced Success

1/4 less Limitation:  The power gains +5% Active Points for every point the roll succeeds by, maximum of +25%.

1/2 less Limitation:  The power gains +10% Active Points for every point the roll succeeds by, maximum of +50%.

1 less Limitation:  The power gains +20% Active Points for every point the roll succeeds by, maximum of +100%.

 

Reduced Effect for Failure

1/4 less Limitation: If the skill roll fails, the power still works, but only at 25% of its Active Points.

1/2 less Limitation: The power works at 50% of its Active Points.

1 less Limitation: The power works at 75% of its Active Points.

[Christopher]

But here I've got this "Open Lock" spell at 13-, and if successful, I get a one-time use of Lockpicking 20-. Two rolls, and how good I'm at spell-casting (generally or for the specific casting) doesn't affect the success of picking the lock.

Partial/Proportional Success for RSR was mentioned somehwere. But I can't remember where. If not you can work something up. After all the Skill penalty is based on by how much AP are in teh spell. And lockpicking 20- would have a pretty big penalty from AP.

 

You need to make the roll at all to get the "part" of the spell where you get the lockpcking skill (at the minimum level for the variant you use).

The more you make the roll by, the more of the rest of the spell (all the skill levels with lockpicking) you get.

 

Alternatively you are basically "replacing" lockpicking with another skill. Power Skill: Magic in essence works as lockpicking, but perhaps with limitations/penalties (because it is not the proper skill).