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Powers as Illusions


Jkeown

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Say I want to make Illusionists cool again. Could I allow a Limitation on Powers like "Can Be Disbelieved" and "Illusion" to represent that the Powers aren't real, just weird, magical light, and that they all share a common special effect, that of Illusion Magic.  A target would get a Breakout Roll to defend against them. (or they might be required to target DMCV)

 

What sort of Limitation would that be? -1? -2? More?

 

Also, if this has been covered before, please direct me to that discussion, I'd love to read it.

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So, something like this? (the +0 on Illusion Magic is not an error, just a reminder.

 

Phantasmic Fireball:  Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Illusion Magic (+0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OCV against DMCV; +1/4) (37 Active Points); Can Be Disbelieved (-2) Real Cost: 12

 

Obviously, if the caster was someone known to employ Illusions, there might be a bonus to the Breakout Roll, or would there even be one?

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You could build it as an AVAD, as a small limitation.  I've built several poisons this way; so that there are two sets of defenses - the ordinary rPD defense and then they also can roll to ignore it.

 

I don't see it being worth -2 unless its really obvious this is an illusion and nearly everyone ignores it.  I'd probably give it a -1/2, if it seems real, because even if someone does spot it as a fake, they still have to successfully roll to ignore it.

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At first blush I thought, "why not Mental Illusions?"

 

Mental Illusions:  Major change to environment Ego +10 (akin to the create an explosion example in 6e1 249)

Can Cause Stun Ego +10

Can Cause Stun and Body Ego +20

 

 

Unfortunately in order to get an illusory fireball you're probably going to need a minimum of 12d6 of effect and more likely 14d6.

 

Illusory Attack:  14d6 Mental Illusions, +1/4 ACV (OCV v. DMCV);  Limited power, only to create illusions of explosions, lightning bolts etc. -2

(Active 87;  Real Cost 29)

 

That takes care of the "Can be disbelieved" part;  but your damage is limited by the effect rolled.  On average that means something around 49 points of effect.  So, in summary, you have a 9-10 DC attack, LOS no range modifier, variable special effects advantage, the ability to choose between causing Stun only or Stun and Body, OCV v. DMCV that can only be used against human minds and is significantly less effective against anyone with high Ego or Mental Defense.

 

I'm not sure, I might bring the limited power limitation down to -1 1/2.

 

A lot of it depends on Ego levels and the DC's in the campaign.

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I always felt like mental powers, and mental illusion in particular are too expensive for what you get. Especially if the game is at the heroic levels.

After all the modifiers you need to achieve an effect make it so you have to completely blow through whatever active point level is suggested in the book to have a useful effect on someone with the suggested defences at the same levels (heroic, very powerful heroic, or even Super heroic).

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I thinking mental (OMCV) type attacks are very effective in a Heroic style game.  If a mentalist has an OMCV of 5 they will most likely be facing opponents with a DMCV of 3.  All of the attacks are LOS so there is no range modifiers.  Almost every opponent will have a 10 or maybe 13 EGO and no Mental Defense without some serious justification (at least in my campaign).  So the mentalist needs an mental illusion spell capable of rolling on average between 30 to 40 on their dice.  That means 8.5d6 to 11d6.

 

In my previous fantasy campaign, low magic sword & sorcery world, there was a PC sorcerer who used mental spells.  The player learned how to use 6d6 Mind Control to 'influence' opponents to do what he wanted.  For instance he used his mind scan to find the guards who were awake on a camp they wanted to ambush and he basically suggested the guards were really tired and wanted to go to sleep and they went to sleep.  The party was able to sneak in and do what they wanted without much trouble.

 

A player who wants to use mental powers needs to learn to be subtle and clever.  If the player wants to use fireballs on their opponents they should just go for fireballs.

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Convincing trained active sentries to go to sleep would be an Ego +30 in just about every game I have ever played. But even if you had it at Ego +20 that still is almost impossible at the suggested active point caps for a Normal heroic game (30-50 active points). To do that to multiple guards would reduce your effectiveness even more as you would have to add area of effect or do an option multiple attack reducing your OMCV by -2 and your DCV by half.

Even versus a Ego (10) + 20 effect and a 40 active point (8d6) ability you have a 50% chance of affecting them if you even hit which is you are +2 OCV over your opponent is about 83% hitting meaning your chance of disabling the random mostly unimportant guard is about 0.83*0.50=0.42%. Which inversely means your character who spent all his points on mental stuff has a 58% chance of things getting physical. As soon as you make the attack your target becomes aware and your difficulty escalates, because without a doubt the difficulty versus a person who knows someone is trying to influence him is +30.

 

Our experience has generally been a normal ability bought attack versus alternate defense and uses Mental Combat value is almost always superior. However skills tend to blow even that out of the water as a character with the same points on skills such as Acting, Stealth and Climbing or other adventurer based skill will do way better in just about every non-combat situation.

 

PS: All this compared to using a direct Blast attack for 8D6 which they only get to subtract 2 PD + 2 from armor against and you will see one 8D6 attack they subtract 10 from, the other they subtract 4 from one is obviously better in our experience.

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PPS: If you are one of those GM's that give Invisible Power Effects as a freebie to mental powers then Mental Powers are equal IMHO. But most GM's I have know require mental powers to be visible to 3 senses just like other endurance using powers.

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In my previous fantasy campaign, low magic sword & sorcery world, there was a PC sorcerer who used mental spells.  The player learned how to use 6d6 Mind Control to 'influence' opponents to do what he wanted.  For instance he used his mind scan to find the guards who were awake on a camp they wanted to ambush and he basically suggested the guards were really tired and wanted to go to sleep and they went to sleep.  The party was able to sneak in and do what they wanted without much trouble.

 

A player who wants to use mental powers needs to learn to be subtle and clever.  If the player wants to use fireballs on their opponents they should just go for fireballs.

We do have the tendency to only look for the EGO +30 effects. The real trick is to figure out the EGO+10 and EGO+20 stuff that get's us forward.

 

The invisible mind control would too powerfull to make EGO+30 results happen easily (because you would get full result and no way of detecting it).

Actually I would not mind if Mental powers cost half as much as they do now, but were visible by default (power aura around head or something). Of course such a steep discount would cause havok with the EGO-thresholds.

 

 

Convincing trained active sentries to go to sleep would be an Ego +30 in just about every game I have ever played. But even if you had it at Ego +20 that still is almost impossible at the suggested active point caps for a Normal heroic game (30-50 active points).

The Roman legions (back when they were made up of citicens*) had a rule: You snooze off on guard duty (especially night), you get executed. No pardon and no appeal. Guards were not even issued shields because it was too easy to rest your head on one of the roman square ones.

That would for me be an EGO+20 if the guard was fresh** (because there was still the chance of not being caught). If the guard was already very tired even threath of death is not going to get this over EGO+10.

 

Sounds to me like you overvaluing the EGO-tresholds of mooks might be the issue. They are just mooks. Wheter they die by execution because they only had a Ego+10 treshold or because they get backstabbed/slaughtere by the PC does not matter.

 

 

*Wich means they had the highest rights a normal person could get in Roman Empire.

 

**In this case fresh means it is the first night guard after having marched/worked the whole day. Not the 2nd or 10th and not after a very stressfull day/week/month.

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I'm not sure I would agree that convincing a sentry to sleep requires +30 Ego.  After all at that level you could make them shoot themselves in the head, eat their children, set their wife on fire, etc.

 

I think, in the OP's case, I would waive the Active Point cap, because on balance I think illusory fire balls having the same DC's as Blast fireballs are pretty close.

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Yeah I'd think equal or +10 would work for all but the most dedicated sentry sitting alone at night on watch.  They're pretty inclined to go to sleep anyway.

 

But I agree that its very expensive to get an effective mental power the way they are depicted in source media.  Generally speaking it costs much, much more to get someone to believe in a fireball enough to hurt them than it is to just use a fireball and hurt them.

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I'd just add to the chorus that EGO+30 to get a guard to go to sleep is way overkill. Historically, sentries  - even trained ones - had a tendency to go to sleep, if they could possibly get away with it, which is why checking and rotating sentries has always been such a big deal.

 

I'd also note that a mental illusion capable of generating a physically damaging fireball is worth way more than an actual fireball, because it could very easily become a physical Icespear or Lightning Bolt or whatever that particular monster's Kryptonite was. At the very least, it should cost the same as an equivalently-sized EB with advantages to cover the LOS, DMCV, invisibility, and variable special effects advantages.

 

Note that invisibility to normal sight is not a "special freebie": as per the rules on 6E1, page 155 "As discussed on 6E1 126, Mental Powers are Invisible to characters who do not have Mental Awareness"

 

Mental Powers can be hard to handle for a GM, because an illusionist basically only needs one power: Mental illusion, while a Cerebromancer needs only Mind Control. With either of those two powers, you can do an awful lot. You can of course, gussy it up with lots of extra powers - cumulative plus the +1/2 version of Invisible Power Effects lets you generate some insidious but exceedingly powerful effects, with a little patience. Instead of making the guard sleep, at EGO+30, you can just set him to murdering his sleeping comrades :)

 

I think possibly the most powerful Fantasy Hero character I have ever played was built around Mind Control: he backed up his mental might with the physical prowess of dominated monsters, but by and large he preferred not to engage in direct confrontation. On occasion, he soloed challenges that the the GM had built for the whole team, and the GM - with good reason - hated him. Eventually I retired him because we agreed that he was a "no fun" character for the rest of the players.

 

Cheers, Mark

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There is no doubt that the mental illusion is more costly because of its greater flexibility, my point was that if all you're going to do is make a fireball, mental illusions is possibly the worst, most costly way to do so.  Mental powers have always been either ridiculously powerful or basically useless in Hero, depending on the target, and almost never any in between; they're at the same time too restricted and too potentially powerful.  They need a rebuild - I'd make them more like transform in structure than presence attack which is what they presently are.

 

But your GM sounds like he wasn't running your mentalist properly, if you were able to do all that with a fantasy hero character.

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Convincing trained active sentries to go to sleep would be an Ego +30 in just about every game I have ever played.

In that case I would say the command should be "Kill yourself" because Ego +30:

Target will perform actions he is violently opposed to doing. Target will believe statements that contradict strongly held personal beliefs or principles (including Psychological Complications) or that contradict reality under direct observation.

 

Most people are not violently opposed to sleeping.

 

But even if you had it at Ego +20 that still is almost impossible at the suggested active point caps for a Normal heroic game (30-50 active points).

Again Ego +20 seems like go for a long walk in the woods in the middle of the night based on:

 

Target will perform actions he is normally against doing. Target will believe any statement that doesn’t contradict strongly held personal beliefs or principles (such as Psychological Complications)

 

To do that to multiple guards would reduce your effectiveness even more as you would have to add area of effect or do an option multiple attack reducing your OMCV by -2 and your DCV by half.

Sorry my example was not complete enough. First the PC did a mind scan and found all the guards. Then he concentrated on one guard at a time and did his Mind Control on each one.

 

Also I should have stated that the guards in question were bandits - not exactly disciplined.

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Note that invisibility to normal sight is not a "special freebie": as per the rules on 6E1, page 155 "As discussed on 6E1 126, Mental Powers are Invisible to characters who do not have Mental Awareness"

In fact when used in a game with few other mages and mentalist the 'invisible' capability is overwhelming to the opposition.

 

I think possibly the most powerful Fantasy Hero character I have ever played was built around Mind Control: he backed up his mental might with the physical prowess of dominated monsters, but by and large he preferred not to engage in direct confrontation. On occasion, he soloed challenges that the the GM had built for the whole team, and the GM - with good reason - hated him. Eventually I retired him because we agreed that he was a "no fun" character for the rest of the players.

In fact the particular adventure I described ended up with a minor rebellion within the gaming group. The other players started asking "What do we need to be doing on these adventures if he can just put everyone to sleep so easily and then just walk in and kill them." The player and I had to rework his character to make it so he couldn't cast his spells so easily and often. He also agreed to back off on how he used his spells.

 

i.e. His character had become "no fun" at that point in time. The reworking made his character more fun - mostly because he started expanding to other areas/skills.

 

Mental powers in the hands of a clever and resourceful player are extremely effective.

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In that case I would say the command should be "Kill yourself" because Ego +30:

Target will perform actions he is violently opposed to doing. Target will believe statements that contradict strongly held personal beliefs or principles (including Psychological Complications) or that contradict reality under direct observation.

 

Most people are not violently opposed to sleeping.

 

Well other than people in Nightmare on Elm Street

A-Nightmare-on-Elm-Street-Heather-Langen

 

I could stretch it to Ego +20 if the guard is really, really zealous or afraid for his life from invaders and/or his sergeant.  But equal to Ego or +10 ought to do.  Heck I require characters trying to stay up all night to make CON or Ego roll (whichever is higher) to do so.

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There is no doubt that the mental illusion is more costly because of its greater flexibility, my point was that if all you're going to do is make a fireball, mental illusions is possibly the worst, most costly way to do so.  Mental powers have always been either ridiculously powerful or basically useless in Hero, depending on the target, and almost never any in between; they're at the same time too restricted and too potentially powerful.  They need a rebuild - I'd make them more like transform in structure than presence attack which is what they presently are.

 

But your GM sounds like he wasn't running your mentalist properly, if you were able to do all that with a fantasy hero character.

 

No, he was an excellent, highly-skilled GM: one of the best that I've ever played with. In this case, we were playing with "heroic" characters 75 points+75 disads - but the flexible nature of Mind Control meant that the player could focus on that one power - which is perfectly doable at that level, even without access to power frameworks.

 

It's simply that mind control, in a universe (like that of most Fantasy Hero games) where mental defences and special powers like mental awareness are not staples can be hugely effective ... in the hands of a skilled player. A player who uses mental powers like a club - something to throw around in combat - is usually not so powerful. I agree completely that if you want a fireball, build a fireball: don't try to persuade people that you are throwing fireballs. But a player who uses mental powers to persuade, mislead and co-opt can go through a lot of scenarios like a wrecking ball. A little telepathy can go a long, long way just by itself. Most scenarios are based on the assumption that PCs will go mano a mano with monsters or humanoid foes. They are often not written to handle a PC who scans ahead for minds, and then uses mind control or illusions to send the strong-but-stupid monster against other foes. In many cases - with regard to this specific PC - we crushed the opposition without ever actually coming face to face with them (which is why that PC got retired: not much fun for the other players).

 

I agree that mental powers can be hard to deal with as a GM: I've had my own share of problems.Telepathy is one of my pet hates, but Mind Control can be pretty awful, too. Alas, too many GMs deal with the problem poorly, by simply declaring that everything is an EGO+30 effect or on occasion arbitrarily declaring that "You can't mind control him" or "He refuses to believe your illusion" rather than following the guidelines/rules. The potential for better than all-or-nothing outcome of mental powers makes them problematic in any gaming system: killing a powerful opponent is good. Bringing a powerful opponent onto your team - even briefly - is better than good. I think that Hero does a better job at handling the nuances than any other game system I have seen, but it can be problematic sometimes, that's just how it is.

 

cheers, Mark

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I think mind controlling monsters to attack someone other than the PC, such as their friends, would require a pretty significant level of control, beyond the points you could afford with a 150 point character.  Certainly far beyond what I'd be comfortable with in terms of active points compared to the rest of the party's abilities.  Joe the barbarian can get up to 3d6 KA with his sword; 45 active points.  9d6 mind control ain't gonna turn a monster against his friends.

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I think mind controlling monsters to attack someone other than the PC, such as their friends, would require a pretty significant level of control, beyond the points you could afford with a 150 point character.  Certainly far beyond what I'd be comfortable with in terms of active points compared to the rest of the party's abilities.  Joe the barbarian can get up to 3d6 KA with his sword; 45 active points.  9d6 mind control ain't gonna turn a monster against his friends.

 

True enough since 9d6 is ~32 points of effect so for the average monster with a 10 EGO that is only +20 EGO.  But if you have two ogres and Joe ogre ripped off Mike ogre and Mike ogre knows about it, and the character knows about it, maybe +20 EGO to beat up your thieving friend could happen :rofl:

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Actually, even leaving aside the assumption that games are run using the optional rule about active points caps (not something we've ever bothered with), you can easily hit Ego+30 in a game with a 45 point active cap. All you need to do is lead with an Ego suppress or Drain - a tactic the PC in question was fond of. It's made even easier, by the fact that in Fantasy games, many physically powerful enemies are not that smart, and may have EGO lower than 10.  Or, as already pointed out, using telepathy to ferret out already existing antagonisms or psych. lims in your targets gives you a handy lever to work with. But it can be even easier than that. "Making Friends look like Enemies" with mental illusions is a major change to setting and that is only Ego+10. It's even called out as an Ego+10 result in the rules. Any halfway competent illusionist should have his enemies fighting each other on a regular basis. Heck, I've done this to my own player's PCs when GM'ing from time to time.

 

Mental powers are exceedingly flexible and their inherent invisibility, "sort of" indirect and range allow them to be used in ways that conventional attack powers can't. Obviously they work best when you are not in a direct confrontation, but all that means is that they are best used with a little foresight.

 

cheers, Mark

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Not bothering with active point limits is exactly what leads to the "wow this effect is super powerful!" in games.  Yeah, it is super powerful, because its dealing out more raw power than everyone else in the game has access to.  You can go too far with active point limits, but ignoring them is even worse.

 

In any case, since the system is based in +10 intervals, not multiples, a lower initial Ego total is unlikely to make much difference in mental powers; 7+30 is still 37.  I suppose if the GM has the monsters just ignore the mage casting spells on them over and over to set up a later mind control, its possible you could end up with a mangled and wounded pet after a turn or so.

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Not bothering with active point limits is exactly what leads to the "wow this effect is super powerful!" in games.  Yeah, it is super powerful, because its dealing out more raw power than everyone else in the game has access to.  You can go too far with active point limits, but ignoring them is even worse.

 

In any case, since the system is based in +10 intervals, not multiples, a lower initial Ego total is unlikely to make much difference in mental powers; 7+30 is still 37.  I suppose if the GM has the monsters just ignore the mage casting spells on them over and over to set up a later mind control, its possible you could end up with a mangled and wounded pet after a turn or so.

Actually, active points caps are not a core option for a reason. The vast majority of experienced Hero system GMs I know don't use them. I guess they have a place in some games, but as a guideline to effectiveness, active points are not a good indicator. The GM needs to actually look at builds, and if you actually look at builds, a points cap is largely irrelevant. And in a game where we had a warrior who could soak ridiculous amounts of damage and dish out 4d6 killing with his greatsword, or an archer who could reliably shoot enemies in the face, the mind mage didn't dominate because he had a 10d6 mind control. He did so because he could neutralise opposition from the other side of town - locate and defeat foes before they were even aware the fight had started. So, yeah, I guarantee I could build a brutally effective mind mage for fantasy hero with a 45 point cap - the cumulative advantage alone makes the cap largely irrelevant, essentially proving my first point :) And as I note below, it's not really active points that are the problem.

 

The whole comment about "casting spells over and over" suffers the same failing: it shows you are still thinking like a fighter: go up mano a mano and whack 'em in the face with your spell :). However, mindscan and invisible power effects allow a mind mage to locate enemies before they can see him and yes, hit them several times with a spell ... without them knowing it. Until suddenly, they turn on their fellows in a murderous rage, or fall asleep, or open a castle gate, or ... whatever. Likewise, the comment about EGO drain not making much difference is not accurate. Have a look at the bestiary, or marauders & minions. The vast majority of foes have EGOs of 10 or less. Few have more than 13. Dropping someone's defence by 10, moves them from the +20 to the +30 category. That's a *huge* increase in power and means even with the 45 active point cap you proposed, that absolute domination of many foes is not only possible, but is likely to be routine.

 

But in a way, the fact that mental powers can be very powerful, is not actually the core of the problem. The problem is that the style of play best suited to the mind mage - stay away from the action, neutralise enemies from a distance, extract information without physical confrontation, etc. is not much fun for the other players, and often vice versa. If the party frequently enters an encounter to find half their foes asleep and the other half fighting each other, the fighter feels a bit redundant. If the mind mage uses mindscan to check the castle bit by bit and neutralise the sentries, or get them to open doors, the rogue is likely to feel overshadowed. On the other hand, if the party likes to hurl itself into the fray, the mind mage is likely to feel out of place. That's the problem! And that's why I retired the PC in question despite the fact that I enjoyed the heck out of playing him.

 

Cheers, Mark

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