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Advice Needed: Characters for a low fantasy HERO campaign


Pegasus40218

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OK...So I'm in the early stages of a low fantasy Fantasy HERO campaign.  My group consists of me and 5 players.  My players are accustomed to playing mainly d20 systems, particularly D&D and Pathfinder.  They also tend to min-max everything in those systems.  Nobody in my group, including myself, has much experience with HERO system.

 

To avoid them completely min-maxing the characters and so that the characters have some background (as opposed to being nothing more than a collection of combat statistics), we tried something different this time around.  We spent our first couple of sessions using the FATE system's campaign and character creation process.  The end result was this:  The campaign is going to be centered around fighting "organized crime" in a city state set in a vaguely early iron age / very early medieval time period.  Additionally, there's the looming threat of war with a neighboring city state.  The setting is low magic -- magic exists, but it is very rare, time-consuming, and complicated -- you're not going to see anyone hurling fireballs or lightning bolts every few seconds in combat.

 

I'd like to run a fairly "gritty" campaign where the PCs don't completely outclass everything they face.  For example, we did some play-testing of my first draft of the characters (with only 4 of 5 characters) and they faced four City Guards (from the back of the Fantasy HERO 6E book) armed with spears, swords, shields, and chainmail.  It was a tough fight, but the City Guards eventually won when they managed to knock out the toughest of the PCs and the rest of the group decided to surrender (it was just play-testing and it was toward the end of the evening)...And this is the type of feel I want to have.  I don't want the PCs to look at an equal number of city guards and assume it's going to be a cake-walk.  I want the threat of defeat to be real. 

 

Next we developed the character concepts and some background material.  Anyone not familiar with FATE's character creation process, you start by coming up with you character concept and one "aspect" that complicates his life.  Then you write a short story (a paragraph or two) from his background that demonstrates some of his abilities.  Based upon that story, you define another "aspect" of the character.  "Aspects" should generally be double-edged swords:  helpful in some situations, problematic in others.  Then, you hand your back-story off to another player, who then writes their character into your backstory...and in so doing, they define an aspect of their character, while you do the same on someone else's.  The idea is to create in-character ties to the other player's characters and create an interesting background that helps define the character you want to play.  You do two rounds of writing your character into someone else's background.  Next, you identify skills and abilities that your character should have and at what level (one at "great", two at "good", three at "fair", and four at "average").  You also define three "stunts" (think special maneuvers/traits) that your character will use from time to time.  I then took this information and attempted to build HERO characters from them. 

 

Here are the basic campaign guidelines we're working with:

Characters are being built on 125 total points (75 base points + up to 50 points from complications). 

Normal characteristic maximums are in effect (normal max = 20)

Speeds will normally range from 2-3, max in campaign = 4

Combat Values will be in the 2-6 range (average around 4)

Damage classes will be in the 2-8 range (average 4-5)

Skill rolls will generally be in the 8- to 12- range

Defenses/rDefenses will be in the range of 4-8 / 0-6r with expected average being around 6 / 2-3r

I'm still on the fence about whether or not Combat Luck will stack with armor.

 

Part of the reason I'm posting this is I'm not particularly happy with the builds I've put together...most of them are simply too vanilla and don't show much in the way of creativity on my part.  Some of this stems from a lack of experience with the system; but one of my objectives in trying to run HERO with this group is to explore and demonstrate it's flexibility and adaptability...and with these initial builds, I feel like I've fallen well short of my own expectations and haven't done much to demonstrate the capabilities of the system.  Any advice and suggestions on how to improve these characters will be appreciated.

 

So, here's how I'm going to approach this:  for each player, I'm going to give a brief player personality assessment based upon at least 3 years of gaming with the player on a weekly basis.  Then I'm going to present their character concept.  I'll also attach the PDF (HERO Designer export) for the character I created based upon what the players indicated they wanted for their characters.  Due to the points budget, I wasn't able to build everything that was requested for every character.

 

"Player1" --  This player is one of the better role-players in the group.  He's one of the few actually willing to put effort into developing background material.  He's one of the few I don't have to worry too much about going all munchkin on me with his character.

 

He wants to player a character who is a member of an elite group of sword masters.  These sword masters don't have official law-enforcement powers, but generally their presence helps to keep the peace.  In addition to peacekeeping, they provide combat training to members of the guard.  The organization only allows ten people to hold the title of "sword master" at one time.  To become a swordmaster, you must either defeat a current swordmaster in a duel (not necessarily to the death), or you can compete to fill the slot of a retiring swordmaster.

Skills:  Great:  Sword; Good:  Defensive fighting, Courtly;  Fair:  Weaponsmith, Acrobatics, Persuasion; Average:  History, Dancing, Seduction, Law.

Stunts:  Disarm, Subdual / KO (club weapon [sword])

 

 

"Player2" -- This player is the least experienced player in our group.  He's bright, but somewhat awkward.  He's relatively good with numbers, with a strong tendency toward unbalancing characters.  To his credit, he tries to roleplay, but his attempts tend to be somewhat ham-handed and overly-simplistic.  He also tends to have an unrealistic expectation about the effectiveness of certain skills and abilities...For example, if he made his skill roll "by enough", he'd expect to be successful at using a Persuasion skill to convince a dragon to simply walk away from its treasure hoard ("Hey, I made the roll!").  This player also can't handle adversity.  If something doesn't go his way, he tends to throw a bit of tantrum and turn all sulky.  He's one of the many rules lawyers in the group.  He also has to be the center of attention...When I'm running a scene which his character is not involved in, he routinely interrupts and tries to come up with some excuse -- no matter how far fetched -- to introduce his character to the scene...And the leaps of intuition he tries to make (most of which tend to be wrong) using player knowledge instead of character knowledge are simply...astounding...

 

This player basically wants to play a bard.  My initial challenge with the character backstory and concept is that I really have nothing that I can use to motivate him to fight organized crime...yet.  What makes it harder is that if I try to motivate the character by inflicting some sort of adversity caused by organized criminals, I run the risk of the aforementioned tantrum.  His concept (basically the "face" of the group) is fine.  But he expects skills to basically have the same effect as some form of limited mind-control powers.  He originally indicated that his character would have NO (zip, zero, nada) combat capabilities, but I refused to go that route, because I know my group...There's going to be combat, and a fair amount of it...and I don't want one of my players sitting on the sidelines bored (and complaining), when I can avoid it.

 

Skills:  Great:  Performance; Good:  Persuasion, Subterfuge; Fair:  History, KS:  Music, PS:  Bard;  Average:  Dagger, Perception, Craft - Instrument, Diplomacy

Stunts:  Feint, Distract

 

 

"Player3" -- Player 3 is one of the more experienced players in the group; however, he tends to not be fully engaged in the game, often playing games on his laptop or smart phone.  Like the rest of the group, he tends to min-max characters, though not to the extent of the others.  He's very rational and tactical, and role plays very well when you can get him engaged.  He also likes to explore unusual concepts but tends to focus strictly on advantageous abilities / powers -- and once he has them, he'll go out of his way to use them.

 

This player's character concept is a streetwise cat burglar.  I'm faced with a second character who currently has no reason to go against organized crime; so, once again, I have to build an in-game story just to get the character involved with the main story.

 

Skills:  Great:  Burglary; Good:  Streetwise, Acrobatics; Fair:  non-lethal combat,  Perception, Evasion; Average:  fencing stolen goods, fast-talking (player didn't provide the other two skills, nor did he provide any "stunts").

 

 

"Player4" -- Player4 does not engage in role-playing.  While not exactly a power gamer, he pretty much prefers to play fighter types and mainly enjoys combat.  This player openly dislikes HERO because "there's too much math."

 

This player's character concept is basically a ranger who makes a living as a guide / caravan guard and generally doesn't like or trust other people, but can't not help someone truly in need.

 

Skills:  Great:  Bow; Good:  Tracking, Stalking; Fair:  Land Navigation, Skinning, Haggling; Average:  Longsword, DCV/DEF, KS:  Wilderness, Cooking.

Stunts:  none provided by player.

 

 

"Player5" -- Player5  is another decent role-player, but he also has strong tendencies to min-max characters and almost always focuses on enhancing combat abilities above everything else.  He does OK at developing character backgrounds, though generally, he tends to try to use background creation simply to justify over-the-top combat capabilities.

 

This player's character concept is basically a streetwise urban tough (brawler) who can dish out a fair amount of damage, but can generally absorb a ton of punishment (think Marv from the movie "Sin City").  His current occupation is as an "enforcer" / "collector" for an organized crime family (though he's trying to get out of the business).

 

Skills:  Great:  Toughness; Good:  Brawling, Seduction;  Fair:  Streetwise, Athletics, Perception; Average:  Haggling, Subterfuge, Strength, Romance

Stunts:  Roll with Punch, Uppercut, "Bedroom eyes"

 

Note, the attached character sheets are basically the 2nd or 3rd revisions of these characters.  After play-testing two combats (since my group tends to be combat-centric), some adjustments were made that didn't necessarily match the original character concepts.

 

So, since I'm asking for help improving the characters, here are some of the things I'm struggling with along with my own critiques of the builds:

 

Base OCV/DCV vs. Combat Skill Levels.

Most of the builds in the books tend to favor base OCV / DCV instead of skill levels.  I tend to think of CSLs as combat training; but, because they're cheaper and more flexible, I had a tendency to load characters up with CSLs even when they don't have any real combat training.  I also probably over-used martial arts in the character builds.

 

Player1's character is woefully under-powered for a swordmaster.  That could be entirely the result of the points budget, but I think I should be able to get more capabilities for my budget than I did.

 

Player2's "mood music" ability needs some adjustment.  What I was after was the ability of the character to alter the mood of groups of people through his music / performance (given time to perform).  This isn't any ability that would be used during combat, but might be used just prior to "gin up" the troops.  It originally started as an idea to increase a listeners presence, only for purposes of resisting fear effects / presence attacks; but given the ability of music to affect a range of emotions and take a person from laughter to tears, I wanted to make it more general...Maybe I should build it as multiple abilities, rather than trying to lump it all into one...not sure.  Other than this one ability, the character is pretty plain and ...well...boring.

 

Player3's character is OK...just a bit "vanilla".  I'd like to spice the character up a bit.

 

Player4's character is also OK, though the player feels that 4DC RKA is under-powered.  I'm willing to make adjustments, but I don't want every fight to be a foregone conclusion.  He's also pretty vanilla.

 

Player5's character seems over-powered for the campaign so far (and is the reason I'm considering ruling that Combat Luck doesn't stack with armor).  In spite of this, the character is pretty "vanilla" as well.

 

Player1.pdf

Player2.pdf

Player3.pdf

Player4.pdf

Player5.pdf

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All of the players have the exact same speed. Why not drop them all to 2 and give yourself 10 extra points to play with (this suggestion will hereafter be referred to as the "Speed hack"). Functionally, they will all still be going at the same intervals as before. If this is to get a boost over the NPCs, use Lightning Reflexes to give them a small edge. When you play low power, a small edge usually translates into enough of a bonus to sway the course of events. Unless the characters are all mentalists, I'd sell back the OMCV to 1. There are a few more points. If you think that is cheating then I understand why you would not.

 

Player 1: My initial advice is to rip out the Swordmaster thing and add some Combat Skill Levels with Swords. That way the player can choose whether it is more important to hit (OCV), not get get hit (DCV), or do damage to an inferior opponent (DC @ 2 CSL per +1 DC). If you use the Speed hack in my opening statement, that gives you 22 points to deal with.

 

Player 2: Alternate Mood Music build to shave off some points

Mood Music:  +15 PRE, Usable By Other (+0), Grantor can only grant the power to others, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, Area Of Effect (10m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (19 Active Points); Costs End (-1/4), Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1 1/4), Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (Requires both hands; -1), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-0). Cost: 4  END Cost: 2

 

Player 3: Actually, there is already some diversity in this character. It looks "vanilla" but really it is a solid foundation for upcoming customization. If anything, and assuming you try the Speed hack above, add a small Blink ability as used by the main character of the video game Dishonored. Be aware of the tactical ramifications if you use this. Might reduce the distance and maybe add a Deadly Blow backstab, but it seems this character is more geared towards "ghosting" rather than assassination. If the Teleport is too overbearing, add charges or rule that it costs LTE to use.

Blink:  Teleportation 14m, Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to Sight and Hearing Sense Groups; +1/2) (21 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4). Cost 10  END Cost: 4

 

Player 4: Actually another well-balanced character. At low power levels, 4 DC Killing (1d6+1) is pretty ample. Are you inflating NPC stats? Are you using Hit Locations? If most NPCs are wearing armor and/or have lots of Body, then yeah, I can see the frustration. If not, then the player needs to re-adjust his thinking. These are starting characters and have not yet reached their zenith. Optionally use the Speed hack to either build a Weaponmaster Bows or perhaps even some PSLs vs. Hit Location penalties. 

 

Player 5: Between this character and your Sword Master character, you've got your front line and ironically, the Street Tough is a better tank. I say that he is not overpowered at all. Restrict Combat Luck from stacking with anything that is Medium or Heavy armor. That way he will not outshine somebody who is more of a heavy plate character but will still be tough enough to compete. It will give this character the role of being the party damage soak. I don't want to reduce it all to combat, but combat is a common thing that occurs in games. If this character is up front soaking the damage, the other characters can play to their strengths. If you use the Speed hack, have the character get even better at soaking damage (extra Stun and Body maybe or even a couple of points more of PD to really make him like Marv).

 

All of these are just my suggestions and are informed by my own play style. I hope you might find something of use here. I do like how you organized character construction. I already have a similar process for when I play, but it is neat to see somebody else use a similar methodology.

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"Player3" --

 

This player's character concept is a streetwise cat burglar.  I'm faced with a second character who currently has no reason to go against organized crime; so, once again, I have to build an in-game story just to get the character involved with the main story.

 

I highly doubt this.   :D  Every time he steals something, if it's not actual cash (and, given that he's a cat burglar, it most likely won't be) he's got to find somewhere to sell it.  Enter organized crime.  Have you never seen a heist movie?   :D

 

He stole something from the wrong person.  He stole the wrong thing.  He sold it to the wrong person.  Someone else wanted it more.  He misrepresented it.  It was something more than he thought it was.  Someone was home when he thought the house was empty, and they panicked, or he did; an innocent person ended up dead.  

 

Organized crime means there are gangs, and there is turf, and whoever is in charge of a piece of turf always wants more; more money, more power, more turf.  Is he playing one gang against another?  Did he steal something, for one gang, from another gang?  Did he steal something from a house in a disputed territory, that changed hands while he was in there?  

 

And then there's the possibility of witnesses.  

 

Edited to add:  I'd ask the player some questions.  What was the last thing you stole?  Who did you steal it from?  Why did you steal it?  Where is it now?  Once the player answers those four questions, I'd say to him:  "Okay, those four questions you answered?  You gave me the answers as your character believes them to be true.  At least one of those answers is not correct, though, but I'm not going to tell you which..." and tie it into The Organization that way.  

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I highly doubt this.   :D  Every time he steals something, if it's not actual cash (and, given that he's a cat burglar, it most likely won't be) he's got to find somewhere to sell it.  Enter organized crime.  Have you never seen a heist movie?   :D

 

He stole something from the wrong person.  He stole the wrong thing.  He sold it to the wrong person.  Someone else wanted it more.  He misrepresented it.  It was something more than he thought it was.  Someone was home when he thought the house was empty, and they panicked, or he did; an innocent person ended up dead.  

 

Organized crime means there are gangs, and there is turf, and whoever is in charge of a piece of turf always wants more; more money, more power, more turf.  Is he playing one gang against another?  Did he steal something, for one gang, from another gang?  Did he steal something from a house in a disputed territory, that changed hands while he was in there?  

 

And then there's the possibility of witnesses.  

 

Edited to add:  I'd ask the player some questions.  What was the last thing you stole?  Who did you steal it from?  Why did you steal it?  Where is it now?  Once the player answers those four questions, I'd say to him:  "Okay, those four questions you answered?  You gave me the answers as your character believes them to be true.  At least one of those answers is not correct, though, but I'm not going to tell you which..." and tie it into The Organization that way.  

Therein lies the problem at this point...Nothing in the characters' backgrounds has them running afoul of a criminal organization...yet.

 

You are correct, I need to ask some questions, but I think the expectation the player has at this point, is that I'm going to come up with a scenario that has his character running afoul of the criminal organization(s) in game.  The problem I have is that doing that for each character -- particularly since the characters are so very different -- is going to consume several game sessions...so we'll be several sessions in before I'll be able to get the entire party hooked in to the main story...the story that THEY said they wanted to play during campaign creation.  Furthermore, since the characters aren't being played as if they have any sort of real ties to each other (even though the creation process involved them creating ties to each other), I'm going to have to try to hook them all individually...I can't throw out a hook for one character and have any expectation that the player(s) involved will attempt to involve anyone else...and if that happens, I'll have one or two players having fun while the rest are bored...so I'll have to run a multiply split-party session, which is a royal pain.

 

Anyway, I've clearly got a lot of work ahead of me to make this campaign work...Thanks for the advice...Our group gets together tomorrow night, so I'll probably have some updates over the weekend.

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Therein lies the problem at this point...Nothing in the characters' backgrounds has them running afoul of a criminal organization...yet.

You've got two characters who have taken Complications related to organized crime.  The cat burglar is Watched by the Organized Crime Families, so he's obviously come to their attention.  He's also Hunted by the City Watch, so he has to have pulled at least one job.  I notice also that Player5 the enforcer already has some kind of "in" with organized crime (the Kevorkian Family).  The obvious thing: P3 is (or was, in backstory maybe) given an assignment by a different family, which has a tenuous relationship with the Kevorkians.  P5 was sent along for muscle.  How can't this go wrong?  

 

The bard is Banned from the Purple Kobold -- how did that happen?  Related to P3 or P5, maybe?  Also, the bard needs to come up with another 45 points worth of Complications.  There's got to be something there you can work with.  (See also.)

 

Player1 is, while not official law enforcement, a peacekeeper of sorts -- how does that interact with P3, P5, and maybe P2?  

 

For P4, you might need to rely on how his character knows any of the others.  

 

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Thanks for the reply.

 

Since I created the characters based upon the concepts the group came up with, you'd think I'd remember their complications!  :)  And, yes, I'm aware that several of them are short on complications -- something I plan to rectify over the weekend.  The link to the list of suggested complications is going to be helpful.  I also realize that, when I posted the character builds, I didn't really provide a whole lot in the way of the background materials that the players developed as part of the character creation process.  I'll try to get that information posted this weekend as well.  I think that will clarify the ties and backstory that the players came up with...That said, the only reason I even have what little background as I have is because I forced them to do this for an entire session.  The process is supposed to give each character ties to two other characters so you wind up with a cohesive group as a whole.  Unfortunately, I'm finding the ties they created aren't all that strong, and I'm having trouble getting the group to come together as a party.  Even when I have the entire group present in a scene, if the event (such as a brawl) is initiated against one character, the players aren't getting involved to help him out...In fact, they've pretty much gone out of their way to pursue their own agendas rather than trying to function as a group / team...And since they don't have any obvious reasons to go against the organized crime families (P3 - the cat burglar - indicated that the families might be aware of his activities and thus are watching, but he hasn't run afoul of them yet), I'm having to try to create scenarios in game to make the players want to take on organized crime...But, since they're not pulling together as a team, I can't rely on any action targeting one character bringing anybody but that character into conflict with the families (and since they're not functioning in any way shape or form as a group, I can't simply target the group...at least not yet.)

 

I plan to talk to them before tonight's game about whether or not this is really the story line they want to play, since only one of them really has any significant hooks into it, and two others have tenuous (at best) hooks for it...we'll see how it goes.

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I've found two things will cause a group of players to not form a cohesive group. The first one is a lack of investment in either the setting or the game mechanics. I think that might be what you are facing here. The second one is that they all just want to be difficult. Whether that is from sheer orneriness or rpg burnout or whatever is anyone's guess.

 

Probably a good thing that you are going to talk to them. Maybe they have ideas on something else that they would like to play in or other rules they want to play with. 

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For some reason my system isn't letting me download anything so I can't see the characters.

 

That said, I have to disagree with Nolgroth's idea of a "speed hack" especially if one character is billed as a "swordmaster."  The only kind of world in which a sword master has a SPD of 2 is one in which the average untrained person has a SPD of 1. Otherwise, a character with SPD 2 might have pretensions to being a swordmaster, might be training to be a swordmaster, might be destined to be a swordmaster, but is not a swordmaster.

 

But I DO have a suggestion Nolgroth might call a "hack" even though I don't use that term. If you raise a character's SPD, CUT their Running. Reducing the starting Running of 12 m to 8 means a SPD 3 person is STILL moving 24 m per Turn, just like a like a SPD 2 person with Running of 12 m. This gains you 4 pts to invest elsewhere. Or cutting to 9 m means you only get 3 pts back but can move FASTER than the "normal" person with SPD 2, PLUS you get a break on the half-move.

 

As for "hooking" the characters together, I wish I had some good advice other than try talking to the players. It can be very frustrating when the players are not cooperating.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Order of the Palindromedary

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Keep in mind that I only suggested dropping Speed as they are all at the same Speed anyway. Figured they could get a few points that way and still go at the same interval as each other. That said, not even sure if this game is still active. The last post from Pegasus implied that there were some hurdles to overcome. I hope it worked out for the best.

 

 

As an aside, I experimented with dropping Speed to 2 when I was using MapTool and letting Dex order be the ruling stat for who goes first. For that medium it worked pretty darn well. I have not played enough face to face games (using Hero) to adequately test the theory for that style of play. In fact, I have zero data on face to face Hero games in the last decade (and longer, sadly).

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  • 3 weeks later...

OK...So I've now got two more gaming sessions under my belt, and I'm still having some struggles with the characters and the system.  Here's the latest update:

 

First, after reviewing the characters again, I realized that my "swordmaster" character was built on 100 pts while everyone else had been upped to 125.  After adjusting him to 125, he was significantly better, but still not where one would expect a true swordmaster to be.  I discussed it with the player and we agreed to downgrade the character's status to "aspiring swordmaster"...So that went well.  This is one of the few players who is actually trying to make the game work.

 

I'm still having trouble with the "Marv" type character being virtually invulnerable to damage without resorting to something that's a threat to kill just about everyone else.  I think I'm going to wind up reducing his PD, or eliminating combat luck entirely.

 

The "bard" build is still underpowered, and I'm looking to tweak the "music" build.  The player really wants something more akin to limited mind-control rather than simply something that simulates raising / lowering morale...I'm still trying to decide how that would work/fit with the type of campaign we're trying to put together.

 

The player of the ranger-type character is still a problem for me.  At this point, he's pretty much just "along for the ride".  His only interest so far seems to be turning his character into a DPS monster.

 

The cat-burglar seems to be going OK...maybe slightly under-powered, but developing.

 

In the last game, we had 1 combat that consumed pretty much the entire session (about 4 hours).  The PCs were down a man (one player chose to have his character elsewhere, while everyone else pursued the current objective).  They began by ambushing a slaver's river barge by swinging down to it from a bridge crossing the river it was traveling down.  They quickly took out a couple of the crew members, knocking two of them off the boat and injuring a third before the guards could engage.  Three guards joined the fight as the rest of the crew tried to get out of the way and to safety.  After neutralizing one of the guards and injuring a second, the party split up with two character going into the "cabin" on the barge while the other two were left to finish off the two remaining guards.  A couple of bad rounds for the party later, and two party members were seriously injured, one of the remaining guards was dead, but the third was largely unwounded.  The two characters entering the cabin engaged with the captain and first mate.  The captain was fighting the "Marv" type character and was pretty much taking him apart with a 1d6K AP attack (increased to 7DCs with additional strength & skill levels).  The captain's armor (5rPD) was pretty much neutralizing most of the damage the "Marv" character was inflicting (coupled with a lucky attack that did almost Max damage.  The first mate was engaged with the aspiring swordmaster, and the two were pretty much stale-mated, neither able to gain any significant advantage.  The first was still going on when the session ended.

 

So a couple of comments / questions:

 

1.  We've been using hit locations.  I'm thinking that eliminating hit locations will help speed up combat.  An awful lot of the hits ended up doing 1/2 damage due to location...while a very small percentage did extra damage due to location.  Will eliminating using hit locations help prevent a fight from running for 4+ hours?

 

2.  Which is generally the better way to go for a challenging, and entertaining fight:  a few "tough" opponents (roughly equivalent to the PCs), or a large number of "mooks"?  Which type of fight do most players find more enjoyable?  FYI --The fight described above was intended to be the climax of the current story arc...but I hadn't intended or expected it to take up an entire game session.

 

3.  Martial arts...I think of martial arts as something that should be somewhat "special" -- highly specialized combat training...Not every warrior should have martial arts.  However, in many of the supplements I've read (mostly material created for 5th Ed -- not that I think that matters), almost every warrior type has some sort of martial art.  Am I thinking about martial arts wrong?  If so, what are martial arts supposed to represent?  What are some of the best ways to increase a characters combat effectiveness without giving them martial arts?  Two of the PCs already have martial arts, the other three are already talking about adding them...What are some ways to counteract the effectiveness of martial arts (without resorting to giving all NPC opponents martial arts as well)?

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1.  We've been using hit locations.  I'm thinking that eliminating hit locations will help speed up combat.  An awful lot of the hits ended up doing 1/2 damage due to location...while a very small percentage did extra damage due to location.  Will eliminating using hit locations help prevent a fight from running for 4+ hours?

 

It will help somewhat. I've found that describing hit locations based on damage done works pretty well. Low damage hits were to a limb, higher damage were to something more important.

 

3.  Martial arts...I think of martial arts as something that should be somewhat "special" -- highly specialized combat training...Not every warrior should have martial arts.  However, in many of the supplements I've read (mostly material created for 5th Ed -- not that I think that matters), almost every warrior type has some sort of martial art.  Am I thinking about martial arts wrong?  If so, what are martial arts supposed to represent?  What are some of the best ways to increase a characters combat effectiveness without giving them martial arts?  Two of the PCs already have martial arts, the other three are already talking about adding them...What are some ways to counteract the effectiveness of martial arts (without resorting to giving all NPC opponents martial arts as well)?

 

Players are going to spend points on whatever makes their characters more effective. If martial arts let a character circumvent CV or damage caps, then players will buy them.

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Before I answer the questions or comment on the comments, I still think that Marv is not necessarily a lost cause. You are obviously thinking in terms of straight OCV to DCV, Damage versus Defense scenarios. Marv is the type of character that you pull out that special bag of tricks on. Flash, Mental Attacks, Mind Control, Entangle, etc. are all good ways to neutralize Marv.  Was the Captain was too tough because you were compensating for Marv?  My advice is to think of all the ways Marv can be put at a disadvantage and then using those sparingly as reminders that, while he is tough, he is not untouchable. Just my opinion. Removing Combat Luck is another option but it may suddenly cripple Marv more than you think.

 

In regards to the Bard, what does he want his Bard's Song ability to do exactly?

 

My only advice for the DPS monster it to learn the word "No."  Sometimes the player will go as far as the GM lets him.

 

1. Hit Locations are truly a double edged sword. I would suggest using them for "flavor" instead of removing them entirely. Removing any optional combat rules will probably speed up combat at the cost of abstraction.

 

2. Vary the fights. Drop a lot of mooks in their way until they get to the Big Bad. Along the way, a Henchman or Lieutenant type mini-boss to change things up. The Big Bad should always be a tough scenario, even if the actual BB is not a fight, but a puzzle or social interaction.

 

3. I've come to dislike the term Martial Maneuver because of the connotation it represents. I just call them Optional Combat Maneuvers in my head. It's no wonder your players want them though; they are very effective per point invested. It is only natural.  Other than Martial Maneuvers, Combat Skill Levels are your next method for making a character more directly combat effective.  Characters may also employ other methods such as Nets (Entangle), Flash Bombs (Flash), and other gadgets/spells to make it easier to hit the baddies. Those methods work well against martial artist characters. You don't even have to get too fancy if you are low magic. An oil slick (Change Environment, Forces a DEX skill roll every phase the character is in it plus a Blast (or RKA) versus ®ED if the oil is lit. Think outside the box instead of resorting to constant slug fests. If the characters are really good at slug fests, have them face off at range versus archers. Archers who shoot and move and cover each other. Think tactically. Force the players to adapt to other methods of resolving a combat situation.

 

Good luck.

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I'm still having trouble with the "Marv" type character being virtually invulnerable to damage without resorting to something that's a threat to kill just about everyone else.  I think I'm going to wind up reducing his PD, or eliminating combat luck entirely.

If the problem I CombatLuck stacking with armor, just rule that it won't stack.

 

 

So a couple of comments / questions:

 

1.  We've been using hit locations.  I'm thinking that eliminating hit locations will help speed up combat.  An awful lot of the hits ended up doing 1/2 damage due to location...while a very small percentage did extra damage due to location.  Will eliminating using hit locations help prevent a fight from running for 4+ hours?

One option I'm considering is allowing "called shots" but otherwise using hit locations only if a) the to hit roll was exceptionally good, or B) the damage roll is high enough that an impairing or disabling blow might be possible.

 

 

2.  Which is generally the better way to go for a challenging, and entertaining fight:  a few "tough" opponents (roughly equivalent to the PCs), or a large number of "mooks"?  Which type of fight do most players find more enjoyable?  FYI --The fight described above was intended to be the climax of the current story arc...but I hadn't intended or expected it to take up an entire game session.

 

3.  Martial arts...I think of martial arts as something that should be somewhat "special" -- highly specialized combat training...Not every warrior should have martial arts.  However, in many of the supplements I've read (mostly material created for 5th Ed -- not that I think that matters), almost every warrior type has some sort of martial art.  Am I thinking about martial arts wrong?  If so, what are martial arts supposed to represent?  What are some of the best ways to increase a characters combat effectiveness without giving them martial arts?  Two of the PCs already have martial arts, the other three are already talking about adding them...What are some ways to counteract the effectiveness of martial arts (without resorting to giving all NPC opponents martial arts as well)?

I rather like what Nolgroth said about calling Martial Arts "Optional Manuevers" instead. The Bestiary even gives examples of "Martial Arts" to represent an animal's instinctive combat ability and natural weapons.

 

Nolgroth is also right that savvy players will want Martial Arts because they give a lot of "bang for the buck." I do suggest you forbid (or restrict) "Extra DCs" for them. You should also ensure that they have pre-requisite and that you enforce them; Skills or other game elements that anyone with that Martial Art MUST have.

 

As for ways to enhance combat effectiveness without Martial Arts - Combat Skill levels is a great one, and in fact is probably another good candidate for a pre-requisite. Buying up OCV and DCV is pretty obvious.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Weapon Element: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

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I haven't taken the time yet to read through all the other responses but here are some ideas I am thinking of as I am going through your post.

Player 1: He could use the skill "Feint" which I think is in the Ultimate Skill. But it is basically a kind of acting skill check against perception (or other relevant) check to gain a temporary bonus against an opponent in close range combat. It would let the player have a situationally beneficial bonus that he can help earn by using graphic and evocative descriptions of his actions. Also, if this character is the sword master and wants to be a bit faster, maybe you can use an optional rule wherein the character buys half a point of speed and gets to act as if he was one speed faster every other round. This shouldn't be too game breaking as it is only every second round and most combat sessions don't make it past three rounds so he would only get it once. But that once can offer up a lot of variation. 

Player 2: What is the justification for the higher dex? It seems like it is not really needed for the character to be in keeping with what you described. Also, would Ventriloquism come up often enough to justify 3 points? It is about 2.5% of the character's cost - so are you as the GM and he as the player going to make it worth that 3 points? If not, then maybe just let him have it as part of a new Professional skill: entertainer. That way he has more chances to use the skill and thus gets overall much more bang for his buck. Next, how useful is an aid to presence? Especially since he needs to be able to perform to grant this bonus. How about having him grant an Overall Skill to the listeners. They could then use that OS to aid them however they see fit - Skill Checks, CV bonus, etc. 

As to giving this character a reason to fight - he is trying to craft stories of Heroes and Villains - Victories and Defeats. By latching onto the reputation of Player one, he can take a known figure who already has motivation enough to engage in the fight and aid him so as to bolster his own career as a words' smith. He will find himself able to tell the wondrous tales of bitter losses and sweet exaltation at the end of battles hard fought. 

Player 3: This character might have been scorned by some gang figure in the city and seeks revenge. Maybe the character is more like the Penguin from the current Gotham show and is seeking power. But his method of doing so is to feign being on the straight and narrow until the appropriate time arises. Until then, he weakens the competition. Hopefully working on the straight and narrow provides the character the right amount of personal satisfaction that once presented with the option to revert, they choose not to. That could be a significant plot point much later on. 

 

Build wise, that is a lot of base DCV. If you need to save a few points, dropping that even to a 5 would save 5 points and still let him be the most defensive character. And given that HERO uses a 3d6 system, even one point difference can be significant. Maybe an Area-Knowledge of the campaign city would be good. The character probably knows more 'shortcuts' than the others. 


Player 4: nothing to add.

 

Player 5: I understand the Intimidating power you have but maybe you could rework it has being a version of "striking appearance". The character looks and acts in a "tough" way that most certainly lends itself to an altered perception of that character. That seems perfect for striking appearance. That should even save the guy some points. Also, given the concept, I don't know if Combat-Luck is the way to go. Maybe just buy straight PD and maybe not even worry about ED. Or if you do, make it be at a lower rate. 

 

La Rose. 


 

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1.  We've been using hit locations.  I'm thinking that eliminating hit locations will help speed up combat.  An awful lot of the hits ended up doing 1/2 damage due to location...while a very small percentage did extra damage due to location.  Will eliminating using hit locations help prevent a fight from running for 4+ hours?

 

2.  Which is generally the better way to go for a challenging, and entertaining fight:  a few "tough" opponents (roughly equivalent to the PCs), or a large number of "mooks"?  Which type of fight do most players find more enjoyable?  FYI --The fight described above was intended to be the climax of the current story arc...but I hadn't intended or expected it to take up an entire game session.

 

3.  Martial arts...I think of martial arts as something that should be somewhat "special" -- highly specialized combat training...Not every warrior should have martial arts.  However, in many of the supplements I've read (mostly material created for 5th Ed -- not that I think that matters), almost every warrior type has some sort of martial art.  Am I thinking about martial arts wrong?  If so, what are martial arts supposed to represent?  What are some of the best ways to increase a characters combat effectiveness without giving them martial arts?  Two of the PCs already have martial arts, the other three are already talking about adding them...What are some ways to counteract the effectiveness of martial arts (without resorting to giving all NPC opponents martial arts as well)?

 

In my experience, hit locations only slow the fight down marginally if at all – with one caveat. Since most fights involve killing attacks, you just need to roll/count BOD and location – for most players that’s no slower than calculating BOD and STUN. They can easily call out “7 BOD in the 14!”  The caveat is that this relies on the GM being familiar with the hit locations, so that you can do the damage calculations on the fly. That really only comes with experience. In the mean time, you can use this handy chart drawn up by a friend of mine - http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/hero/hitlocs.pdf to keep track.

 

Also based on my experience, the big timewasters in Hero system combat are:

  1. Player indecision. This is not system specific: we have the same problem in our pathfinder games, but it is made worse when players have a lot of options to choose from. Hero can sometimes suffer from flexibility – some players with a ton of tactical options dither over which one to choose. This usually gets better as they become more comfortable with their characters – and some of my players have never really gotten to grips with combat maneuvers in Hero (move-by, move through, Haymaker, etc), but as long as I have, that does not matter. A GM can help players react faster by simply asking them to state their actions in plain language and then applying the rules as needed.
  2. END. Players already have to track BOD and STUN: END seems like a paperwork too far for me, in return for relatively little payoff, in a fantasy game. Originally I dropped END tracking for fantasy games as a starter house rule, to help new players get up to speed – but the loss of it had such a negligible effect, that I never bothered to replace it. This has some flow-on effects: the reduced END advantage is rarely used, for example. Also, I did not want PCs who were untiring robots (unless, you know they actually are untiring robots), so although I did not require tracking END in regular combat, I keep the END stat. and used END use and the Long Term Endurance Rule to calculate when PCs became exhausted, how far they could carry really heavy things, etc. The biggest change from this rule regards powers/magic. Without END, you need some other factor  to balance spell use.
  3. The SPD chart. I like the idea of different speeds in Combat, but the SPD chart can sometimes cause things to drag – especially if there is debate over whether someone acted or not -  and can also be exploited by clever players. Personally, I deal with this by using a simple house rule: I roll a dice to generate what phase it is (since it is rare that we have SPD above 6 in a fantasy game, I usually use a d6). Characters get to take an action if their SPD is equal to or higher than the dice roll. They can also jump in at any roll if they have a saved action or choose to abort. This ensures that everyone will get the same average number of actions that they should relative to all other characters, but jumbles them up in the short term, so that (for example) the SPD3 character can never be 100% certain in advance that he will get a phase where the SPD2 character cannot act – just at some point there will be an opening. It should be noted here that some GMs and players love the SPD chart to bits and would never countenance such a radical change, but it works really well for me.

These things greatly increase the speed of combat. I can say that with some surety because I’ve tried them out on 5 groups of hero noobies now, and they have always helped.

 

With regard to opponents, I mix it up. A fight with lots of mooks gives the PCs a chance to shine as they cut their way through a mass of foes, and you are less likely to get outright unexpected PC deaths. I tend to play most mooks as smart as they should be: they’ll fight to the best of their ability but few mooks will fight to the death (they are mooks, after all). If they are clearly getting the worst of things, they’ll start to fall apart and flee. Severely injured mooks stagger away bleeding: they don’t try to go toe to toe with a clearly superior foe while trying to hold their guts in with one hand. These two facts mean  that mook fights don’t have to be really long affairs, even if the PCs are matched off against 20-30 opponents: many of those opponents will go down in one decent hit and even if they remain (or become again) conscious will flee, rather than carry on while severely wounded.

 

A fight with a smaller number of matched opponents should not take too long – but it has the potential to go really badly for the PCs really quickly, because one good hit to the head or vitals can take even a tough PC right out of the fight: the GM should try to have a backup plan if it does. Paradoxically, a fight like this can take a long time if both sides are employing the terrain and tactical maneuvers to their fullest – on the plus side, that can lead to a really memorable fight.

 

On the topic of martial arts, I agree with you. I really like the potential for martial arts, and like playing martial artists, but I take the phrase to mean more than “fights real good”. I strongly dislike the habit of some writers to sprinkle a bit of martial arts on everything – particularly given that the standard Hero system has the potential to give a very high bang for the buck if you choose 1 or two maneuvers to spam. I ignore the widespread dumping of martial arts and suggest you do too. J A few combat levels plus a little damage boost is both easier on the brain and generally works just as well, if more damage is required. That said, I also have developed a more flexible system for martial arts (and also one more suited for wuxia-style high powered martial arts if that’s your thing) using standard Hero system rules – I can always repost that if you’d like.

 

cheers, Mark

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I also have developed a more flexible system for martial arts (and also one more suited for wuxia-style high powered martial arts if that’s your thing) using standard Hero system rules – I can always repost that if you’d like.

 

cheers, Mark

That probably deserves its own thread

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This post probably doesn't deserve its own palindromedary tagline

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That probably deserves its own thread

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This post probably doesn't deserve its own palindromedary tagline

 

It's already had at least two long threads, and I know a bunch of other Hero GMs are using the system - because I still get the occasional questions about it, and it's posted on various websites. A search of the boards would probably bring up those threads. Edit: a search using "martial arts multipower markdoc" will bring up a whole bunch of threads where the system is introduced and discussed in detail. Those using Hero Designer can get the prefab.s made by my ol' buddy Fitz here: http://mojobob.com/roleplay/hero/fantasy/highfantasyhero/index.html - under the martial arts subsection, of course.

 

Still, if people are interested in something more current, we certainly could start a new thread. :)

 

Cheers, Mark

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  • 3 weeks later...

OK...So I've now got two more gaming sessions under my belt, and I'm still having some struggles with the characters and the system. Here's the latest update:

 

First, after reviewing the characters again, I realized that my "swordmaster" character was built on 100 pts while everyone else had been upped to 125. After adjusting him to 125, he was significantly better, but still not where one would expect a true swordmaster to be. I discussed it with the player and we agreed to downgrade the character's status to "aspiring swordmaster"...So that went well. This is one of the few players who is actually trying to make the game work.

A sword master can easily be built on 125 points. it really depends on what skills and abilities you give him.

 

I see that you gave him martial maneuvers from the base book. do you have HSMA? If so, familiarize yourself with it. there are several maneuvers in there the sword master would greatly benefit from. the list of maneuvers i would recommend are:

 

Defensive strike (adds +3 to dcv while still attacking!)

Fast strike (adds +2 to oct and +2 dc damage bonus)

Sacrifice strike (+1 oct and -2 dcv with +4 dc damage bonus!)

Martial block

Counter strike (only after a successful block, but adds +2 ocv, +2 dcv and +2 dc damage bonus)

Weapon bind

Martial disarm.

 

Combat skill levels are essential for sword masters and will make the character very versatile. with your low power scale, +2 csls with swords/blades would be enough

 

Defense maneuver at level 2 (5pts?) would allow the character to face off against multiple attacks without too many disadvantages and allow him to use his defensive maneuvers to avoid being hit and eventually wear them down. this allows him to do a scene where the characters run into 5 guards and the swordmaster character says "i got this guys, you go on ahead" and he'll be able to reasonably hold them off for a turn or so before one of the guards gets a lucky hit in beyond his defenses. this skill is essential for a two-weapon specialist who trains to fight multiple opponents.

 

There are several talents that this type of character can make use of. just keep them low key and you should be ok.

 

I see you already have deadly blow for the character at +1 DC. This is reasonable and helps the character quickly dispatch enemies, especially when this increases the base damage of his weapons then his martial maneuvers adds bonus damage. wielding a longsword withb this talent and using a fast strike or martial strike maneuver has the character doing 2d6k. at average 7 body, lightly armored foes will be taken down quickly.

 

I would also recommend Find Weakness as a talent which is written up as a naked ARMOR PIERCING advantage with requires a skill roll (perception?). if the skill roll is successful, the opponents defense only countsn as half against that attack as the swordsman finds the chink in the opponents armor.

 

 

 

I'm still having trouble with the "Marv" type character being virtually invulnerable to damage without resorting to something that's a threat to kill just about everyone else. I think I'm going to wind up reducing his PD, or eliminating combat luck entirely.

Combat luck can be a game breaker. especially at the power level you are running. i would recommend allowing a maximum of +3rpd, +3red and only then after the character gains some xp. start him off at +1rpd and +1red. Tough characters are built to take punishment. make sure he does. slam him through tables and stalls. have him go up against other bruisers who have light amounts of martial arts or fighting talents that boost their damage output (street toughs should almost universally have a streetfighting talent that adds +2d6 to their unarmed damage output) just make sure he cant turn aside a dagger thrust with his bare skin. a guy with a broadsword should be dangerous. at the most he should be able to absorb 8 ponts of killing damage (armor + combat luck) and 15 points of stun damage (armor plus pd) so that an average damage hit from 2d6k to his chest will produce at least 21 stun damage which gets 6 stun past his defenses. a few hits like that puts the guy in danger. tough guys have always been a challenge with this system, but you'll get there.

 

 

The "bard" build is still underpowered, and I'm looking to tweak the "music" build. The player really wants something more akin to limited mind-control rather than simply something that simulates raising / lowering morale...I'm still trying to decide how that would work/fit with the type of campaign we're trying to put together.

Remember that bards are purveyors of information. they are everywhere and make tons of contacts in their travels. any bard worth his lute has a network of contacts strewn about the land through which he stays abreast of current events. they are consumerate flatterers and probably are able to gain favors from a great number of people. they are also oftentimes invisible. people will discuss their plans around the bard because they think he's concentrating on playing his instrument or upon song and the he cant hear their plans, but they are mistaken....

 

This type of character is perfect for a street level fantasy campaign.

 

As for his "inspiring songs" are concerned, i would write up a few of them. one to increase PRE to resist fear and intimidation. (Song of bravery) one to enhance their morale when fighting with the bard as he sings. (Write this up as +2 combat skill levels useable by others, area of effect, requires skill roll, incantations throughout, cost endurance, recipient must hear the song) this would give all the party members additional skill levels they can use and would help them defeat tough enemies. the other party members will go out of their way to protect the bard once they realize how effective this song is.

I would also have a song that would enrage enemies so that they would fight aggressively to the detriment of defense....written up as a drain to DCV. (Providing -1 to -2 to dcv)

 

The player of the ranger-type character is still a problem for me. At this point, he's pretty much just "along for the ride". His only interest so far seems to be turning his character into a DPS monster.

Is it disrupting the game? if not, no big deal. most groups have someone like this. most of the one's i've played inhave at least. i have found that if you involve their character directly in the goings on...have things happen that only their character can solve, they'll become more active. it may just be that the player is highly passive and is waiting to be included rather than being proactive about his characters actions like most players.

 

The cat-burglar seems to be going OK...maybe slightly under-powered, but developing.

Theif types seem to be some of the easiest characters to make for fantasy hero. most of their essential abilities are well represented in the skill list and some of their special abilities are easily concieved in the system (backstab is deadly blow requires a stealth roll...easy!)

 

In the last game, we had 1 combat that consumed pretty much the entire session (about 4 hours). The PCs were down a man (one player chose to have his character elsewhere, while everyone else pursued the current objective). They began by ambushing a slaver's river barge by swinging down to it from a bridge crossing the river it was traveling down. They quickly took out a couple of the crew members, knocking two of them off the boat and injuring a third before the guards could engage. Three guards joined the fight as the rest of the crew tried to get out of the way and to safety. After neutralizing one of the guards and injuring a second, the party split up with two character going into the "cabin" on the barge while the other two were left to finish off the two remaining guards. A couple of bad rounds for the party later, and two party members were seriously injured, one of the remaining guards was dead, but the third was largely unwounded. The two characters entering the cabin engaged with the captain and first mate. The captain was fighting the "Marv" type character and was pretty much taking him apart with a 1d6K AP attack (increased to 7DCs with additional strength & skill levels). The captain's armor (5rPD) was pretty much neutralizing most of the damage the "Marv" character was inflicting (coupled with a lucky attack that did almost Max damage. The first mate was engaged with the aspiring swordmaster, and the two were pretty much stale-mated, neither able to gain any significant advantage. The first was still going on when the session ended.

 

So a couple of comments / questions:

 

1. We've been using hit locations. I'm thinking that eliminating hit locations will help speed up combat. An awful lot of the hits ended up doing 1/2 damage due to location...while a very small percentage did extra damage due to location. Will eliminating using hit locations help prevent a fight from running for 4+ hours?

Yes and no. with random hit locations characters hit limbs a lot, but it also opens it up for that lucky head or vitals shot which can end a fight quickly. personally i think it evens out in the end, but some people prefer going without hit locations. i personally think they are essential.

 

p2. Which is generally the better way to go for a challenging, and entertaining fight: a few "tough" opponents (roughly equivalent to the PCs), or a large number of "mooks"? Which type of fight do most players find more enjoyable? FYI --The fight described above was intended to be the climax of the current story arc...but I hadn't intended or expected it to take up an entire game session.

This is somewhat subjective and depends on what kind of fights your players like to engage in. i would say in general i would throw numbers of lesser opponents at the players that they have a good chance of defeating but can be injured by, where the climax should be a smaller number of tougher/more challenging foes who are equal to or slightly better than the PCs which should force them to make good use of their abilities to overcome.

 

3. Martial arts...I think of martial arts as something that should be somewhat "special" -- highly specialized combat training...Not every warrior should have martial arts. However, in many of the supplements I've read (mostly material created for 5th Ed -- not that I think that matters), almost every warrior type has some sort of martial art. Am I thinking about martial arts wrong? If so, what are martial arts supposed to represent? What are some of the best ways to increase a characters combat effectiveness without giving them martial arts? Two of the PCs already have martial arts, the other three are already talking about adding them...What are some ways to counteract the effectiveness of martial arts (without resorting to giving all NPC opponents martial arts as well)?

In Hero, martial arts is simply specialized fighting skill. it is not particularly something that is special or rare. any codified system of fighting would be considered martial arts in hero terms.

 

The swordman type character most assuredly should have martial arts. the tough could have learned to fight on the streets and over the years refined it into his own personal fighting style. the ranger could practice various ranged techniques to perfect his bow skills and the thief could develop a slippery style to avoid being caught by the city guards (all dodges and escapes) it's just refined fighting skill. any professional warrior will eventually develop some form of style developed over years of discovering what works and what is efficient. if this style can be taught and passed down to a student, it qualifies as a martial art.

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