Cassandra Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 And it really wasn't the dumbest thing Marvel Comics has ever done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cassandra said: And it really wasn't the dumbest thing Marvel Comics has ever done. *cough*One More Day*cough* *cough*Civil War (the comics version)*cough* Dang, I must be catching a cold. Hermit, Cassandra, Lawnmower Boy and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 47 minutes ago, Matt the Bruins said: I'd argue that for most of the characters they're getting the classic core essence of the characters right even if some of the more cinematic trappings of the Ultimate Universe are being used on a superficial level. Nick Fury being the obvious exception. Steve Rogers, for example, may have Ultimate Cap's (better looking) outfit and superhuman power level, but his spirit is clearly that of the main continuity character who's been a symbol of integrity and moral uprightness since the 1940s, not the macho-belligerent jingoistic alternate version. I concur. Feige's team have drawn from the Ultimates well whenever they figure it would enhance their stories, but most of their characters resemble their classic incarnations. Hawkeye is a notable exception in mostly being his Ultimate self; but Downey's Tony Stark had assumed the role of team jokester, so they needed a contrasting personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 20, 2018 Report Share Posted March 20, 2018 I'd honestly forgotten about Cloak & Dagger coming out. It looks like its probably so teen oriented that an old guy like me will be sort of left out, but that's fine for the characters. Lawnmower Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted March 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 There was an idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 If Marvel Comics had a strength it was the ability to Retcon. They killed off Mockingbird and got rid of Jessica Drew and brought both of them back explaining they were abducted by aliens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 Weeell... Marvel has a penchant for retconning. Whether that's a strength is debatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 If they weren't in so much denial about it I'd respect it more. DC gets mocked for it's many reboots and rebirths, but at least it owns it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchman Mk. IV Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 On 3/20/2018 at 3:35 PM, Christopher R Taylor said: I'd honestly forgotten about Cloak & Dagger coming out. It looks like its probably so teen oriented that an old guy like me will be sort of left out, but that's fine for the characters. I was a big fan of C&D back in the day, so I'll probably see it anyway, but I'm not confident. Besides, they are teens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 I am so depressed! https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/captain-america-chris-evans-says-170537443.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 In the comics characters may stay young forever. Real-life actors aren't so lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted March 22, 2018 Report Share Posted March 22, 2018 I know. It's still depressing though. Largely because Evans still looks great in the role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 16 hours ago, Lord Liaden said: In the comics characters may stay young forever. Real-life actors aren't so lucky. This is why I've been enjoying the movies more than the comics. The characters are allowed to grow and change and time passes. I absolutely HATE the eternal youth of and reinvention of the characters in the comics. I want Spider-Man to be pushing 70. I want Capt. America to be defined as a man who is out of time, and ages slowly, and watches his friends and allies continue to pass along the way. I want to watch Wanda age, while the Vision doesn't, and read the inevitable funeral issue. Stark and Barton and Romanov should all be old and/or dead by now. Legacy heroes would mean something, with the old ones passing. Thor becomes a tragic figure, as he is the one who will outlive all the rest, etc. I've always felt that the comic universes had the unique chance to create a massively complex, litereary "other world" and actually have the ability to explores years, decades, more of that universe... but they have routinely chucked that concept for constant rehash posed as reinvention. Stories lose all pathos and impact when they are just going to be rewritten. It is such a waste. Armory and Christopher R Taylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 16 hours ago, Doc Shadow said: I know. It's still depressing though. Largely because Evans still looks great in the role. He's really nailed the part and I feel sorry for whoever has to fill his shoes IF anyone does. But I don't blame him for stepping down while he's on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Yeah Evans did a terrific job, but then I thought he was great as Johnny Storm too, one of the few bright spots in the Fantastic Four movies. He's a pretty solid actor, and entertaining to watch. Armory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, RDU Neil said: I've always felt that the comic universes had the unique chance to create a massively complex, litereary "other world" and actually have the ability to explores years, decades, more of that universe... but they have routinely chucked that concept for constant rehash posed as reinvention. Stories lose all pathos and impact when they are just going to be rewritten. It is such a waste. One of the things I liked about our current official Champions Universe when it first started being detailed in published books, was that it had just that sort of generational history behind it. Heroes came in successive waves since the Golden Age. Legacies of dead or retired heroes were adopted by younger ones, often their own children, sometimes multiple times in succession. Past events had consequences which continue to shape the present and future, sometimes dramatically. The way the presence of superhumans, aliens, the supernatural, has affected society was explored in more depth than comics usually do, not only in America but around the world. Unfortunately the pace of book publication updating that setting has slowed to a crawl, so it's starting to suffer some of that "perpetualism." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Quote This is why I've been enjoying the movies more than the comics. The characters are allowed to grow and change and time passes. I absolutely HATE the eternal youth of and reinvention of the characters in the comics. The only reason we're not seeing the same in the movies is that they're just starting out. There wasn't all this reinvention stuff and rebooting and retconning in the first few years of Marvel Comics, either. Quote One of the things I liked about our current official Champions Universe when it first started being detailed in published books, was that it had just that sort of generational history behind it. This is one of the things I always wanted to do with a superheroic campaign. Start at Golden Age, move to silver, with some characters retiring, move to the bronze age with the kids of those former heroes, etc. Go through generations, each adventure moving along the history. But that takes a kind of player with a long term attention span and a delight in the genre, which my group didn't seem to have. RDU Neil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armory Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, RDU Neil said: This is why I've been enjoying the movies more than the comics. The characters are allowed to grow and change and time passes. I absolutely HATE the eternal youth of and reinvention of the characters in the comics. I want Spider-Man to be pushing 70. I want Capt. America to be defined as a man who is out of time, and ages slowly, and watches his friends and allies continue to pass along the way. I want to watch Wanda age, while the Vision doesn't, and read the inevitable funeral issue. Stark and Barton and Romanov should all be old and/or dead by now. Legacy heroes would mean something, with the old ones passing. Thor becomes a tragic figure, as he is the one who will outlive all the rest, etc. I've always felt that the comic universes had the unique chance to create a massively complex, litereary "other world" and actually have the ability to explores years, decades, more of that universe... but they have routinely chucked that concept for constant rehash posed as reinvention. Stories lose all pathos and impact when they are just going to be rewritten. It is such a waste. This is precisely the reason I consider nothing in the comics beyond the mid-1980s to be canon. It was around then that they started with all the Crises of Infinite Continuity. RDU Neil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 The first Crisis mini-series I really enjoyed. It was unprecedented at the time, and the cluttered and convoluted DC setting could have used some reorganization. IMO the result was a solid basis to build upon. But over time the new continuity grew just as arcane as the old one. And once you've established the precedent of a major resetting event (which was also profitable), it's tempting to keep going back to it. Christopher R Taylor, slikmar and RDU Neil 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 53 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said: This is one of the things I always wanted to do with a superheroic campaign. Start at Golden Age, move to silver, with some characters retiring, move to the bronze age with the kids of those former heroes, etc. Go through generations, each adventure moving along the history. But that takes a kind of player with a long term attention span and a delight in the genre, which my group didn't seem to have. I posted this in another thread, so not to rehash it too much, but this is what I was able to do with my campaign to at least some extent. It began in 1987, with several short stories and campaigns that fleshed out the previous time line, and it lasted until last year. We had a 30th anniversary game with four of my friends and long term players, most of whom have ended up all over the nation. In that game, there was a PC who had been six years old when the meta-campaign started, and was one of the adult heroes now. One PC was the grown daughter of the players original PC... who grew up real time in the game. The plot and villains was built off of specific references that went back to at least '92 if not before. In some ways the entire campaign was sort of a "Let's take a Bronze age-ish, Champions universe-esque world, and let evolve into something new, a bit of a sci-fi take on supers, etc." It wasn't perfect, but man it was probably as close as I'll get to living the dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, Armory said: This is precisely the reason I consider nothing in the comics beyond the mid-1980s to be canon. It was around then that they started with all the Crises of Infinite Continuity. I have this fantasy of winning the lottery, and taking my millions to Marvel with a proposal, "I'll finance, and have editiory input on a line of Marvel Prime comics that captures true continuity and passage of time for the Marvel Universe, starting in 1962, and diverging from ret-con city in the late '80s." I've thought about this, and while not perfect, I think the cut-off, for Marvel, could logically be the horrible Onslaught storyline, where they first "killed off" all the major characters and restarted the Avengers, Cap, etc. There were a lot of terrible comics leading up to that, but if you take 1962, to about 1996, you could age out the heroes over that time. Then, anything after that would be a new-continuity built on that (using aspects of newer issues that are actually really good, just repositioning them in the new timeline, with new context if wanted). Then have new stories written, real time, that assume the passage of the past 55 years. If there is another major Marvel continuity deal... maybe the original Secret Wars, where the continuity could have 'broken' between then and now... could go with that. Personally, Marvel's original Secret Wars was so bad, that it really signaled the turning point of continuity IMO. Armory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: The first Crisis mini-series I really enjoyed. It was unprecedented at the time, and the cluttered and convoluted DC setting could have used some reorganization. IMO the result was a solid basis to build upon. But over time the new continuity grew just as arcane as the old one. And once you've established the precedent of a major resetting event (which was also profitable), it's tempting to keep going back to it. I totally agree. Love the original Crisis... the problem is that editorial control went right out the window almost immediately. Perez' Wonder Woman was excellent, but never quite made sense, continuity wise. They took Truman's Hawkworld, which was supposed to be a retrospective view of Katar and Shiera prior to coming to Earth, but forced it to be current continuity. They got completely caught up in the insanity that is Legion continuity... and just never had a centralized vision or leadership to make it work. Pity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 Crisis on Infinite Earths did it perfectly: rebooted a horrendously tortured and ruined timeline and setting, fixing it so its not such a ghastly, incomprehensible mess. But then they almost immediately started to reverse that so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 We need another thread on "What would YOU do if you controlled the Marvel or DC comic universes!?!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shadow Posted March 23, 2018 Report Share Posted March 23, 2018 We had one. death tribble 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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