Champions Complete. Max Human Strength.

[Marvelfan007]

Is there any consensus on where human strength tops out on the strength chart? I'm thinking 18. That's 300 kg or approx 607 lbs. Thoughts?

[IndianaJoe3]

The first APG has a description of various types of weight lifts, and the percentage of a character's maximum lift they can use. For example, the clean-and-jerk uses 50% of a character's maximum lift, and a snatch uses 40%. If we plug in some real-world records, we get effective lifts of 535 kg for the snatch and 526 kg for the clean-and-jerk. This corresponds almost exactly to a 22 STR (533 kg). Even if we assume some level of Pushing was involved, having 20 STR be normal human maximum is still reasonable.

[Lucius]

 

STR 20 used to be considered "Normal Human Maximum."

 

Bearing in mind that the max lift associated with a STR score is, as I recall, what the character can "pick up, stagger a couple of steps, and drop" you will probably find those who argue that about 30 is the cut off beyond which someone is "obviously superhuman."

 

In fact, some have argued even higher STR can be "Normal Human" but I wouldn't take such arguments too seriously.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Do not be alarmed if you find a palindromedary claiming to be a Normal Human.

[Hyper-Man]

For more realistic games I've seen the idea put forth to reduce the lifting STR of a 10 value to where a 20 value is closer to 300kg.  I believe it was a thread in the Monster Hunter forum.  I and a few others questioned why some of the NPC's from the books had such low stats compared to how they were described in the novels.  Steve Long chimed in that Larry C. and he agreed upon those values.  The results were very similar to what you are suggesting (making an 18 STR max human normal).  The problem with this is that it skews the damage potential of such characters.  Also, the original Normal Characteristic Maxmima concept was never supposed to be a hard limit.  It was just the point at which going beyond caused the price to double.  The suggested hard limit is actually a value of 30.  Going beyond 30+ is clearly the realm of super-human.  30 or less is more in line with maximum human potential (ex: Captain America).

[massey]

Is there any consensus on where human strength tops out on the strength chart? I'm thinking 18. That's 300 kg or approx 607 lbs. Thoughts?

 

 

The correct answer is "no".  There is no consensus.

[Christopher R Taylor]

20 is high end weightlifter, probably 23 is a realistic limit of how much a human can lift before causing internal damage.

[Hyper-Man]

Here's the thread and post I was referring to from the Monster Hunter forum:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/87775-strength-in-the-mhi-universe-do-the-rpg-stats-seem-a-little-low/

 

 

Yeah, I had a rant about this awhile back on (I think) the FB page. I totally see why Steve set the scores where they are based on canon and creator's guidelines. The book states Owen can lift 400 lbs => he has a 15 STR, QED. Julie & Holly both use weapons with Strength Minimums of 12 => they have 12 STR, QED.

 

But it's problematic from an RPG perspective when the entire range of STR among the human hunters is all of 3 points. Personally, I've always thought the Max Lift weights make no sense for most heroic campaigns, especially when compared to the Weapon Strength Minimums. I can shoot an M16 just fine, thank you; but even when I was in my best shape I couldn't lift 300 pounds without seriously pushing!

 

My solution for most modern heroic games is to simply redefine lifting STR one down on the STR table:

10 STR => 75 kg

13 STR => 100kg

15 STR => 150 kg

18 STR => 200 kg

20 STR => 300 kg

 

That would give Owen an 18 STR, and by extrapolation give Franks a 23 or 25. Julie & Holly can keep their 12s. I think that fits the feel of the books better.

[Hyper-Man]

The first APG has a description of various types of weight lifts, and the percentage of a character's maximum lift they can use. For example, the clean-and-jerk uses 50% of a character's maximum lift, and a snatch uses 40%. If we plug in some real-world records, we get effective lifts of 535 kg for the snatch and 526 kg for the clean-and-jerk. This corresponds almost exactly to a 22 STR (533 kg). Even if we assume some level of Pushing was involved, having 20 STR be normal human maximum is still reasonable.

 

The more that I think about it, I find this a more appealing solution though.

[Lord Liaden]

I admit to not having checked out Champions Complete, but in the Fifth and Sixth Edition Champions genre books the absolute maximum human Strength was defined as 30. Strength beyond that is by definition superhuman, only achievable through such extraordinary circumstances as mutagenic accidents, cybernetic augmentation, etc.

 

However, the books categorize Strength in the 21-30 range as "Legendary," possessed only by a small percentage of extraordinary humans. When you get close to 30 you're in the weight class of the greatest heroes of folklore and fiction, the likes of Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Tarzan, Conan, Doc Savage, or Captain America.

[Marvelfan007]

So... If for the moment we accept 20/22 as the Human max (Captain America/Doc Savage/Tarzan) then what would be the average for professional athletes? Olympic athletes? Is there really a difference between pro and Olympic level athletes?

[Echo3Niner]

Is there really a difference between pro and Olympic level athletes?

 

You mean other than the drugs?

[Greywind]

So... If for the moment we accept 20/22 as the Human max (Captain America/Doc Savage/Tarzan) then what would be the average for professional athletes? Olympic athletes? Is there really a difference between pro and Olympic level athletes?

 

Except Steve Rogers Captain America would be somewhere between 25 and 35 depending on where he was in his career.

[Hyper-Man]

So... If for the moment we accept 20/22 as the Human max (Captain America/Doc Savage/Tarzan) then what would be the average for professional athletes? Olympic athletes? Is there really a difference between pro and Olympic level athletes?

 

I think you are still missing the point we are trying to make.  20/22 is NOT a maximum.  It is just the point at which costs double.  Captain America could have up to a 30 STR by the definition of his abilities*.

 

*Peak human.

 

Hopefully this portion of the 5e Champions book mentioned by Lord Liaden will help illustrate what we mean.

 

 

Characters like Captain America would be firmly in the Legendary category. 

 

Some real world examples might be Bruce Lee (DEX) or Andre the Giant* (STR & CON).

 

*Andre could drink an ENORMOUS amount of alcohol compared to most people.

[massey]

Well, I'm going to refer back to my original post.  There is no consensus.  And that's not a bad thing.  We're all playing in different games.  What I like and what I'm trying to emulate may not match what you like.  What I'm trying to achieve in my games may not even be consistent from game to game.  I can tell you for a fact that what an Olympic athlete can get away with in a superheroic game is much different than what they can achieve in a horror game.  It's okay for Dick Grayson to leap off of a building, fall 10 stories, bounce off of the roof of a car, and kick a guy in the face.  When he's 10 years old.  Not only will Dick not be dead, but neither will the guy he kicked.  Superhero genre (and 29 Dex, 6 Spd, and 7" of Swinging defined as 'acrobatics').  But when the Olympic hopeful is being chased by the Masked Slasher, she'll be able to dive over a fence and roll to her feet, nothing more.  Horror genre (and Dex 13 and Acrobatics 13-).

 

Then you get into all sorts of discussions about what is a "normal" human.  Does it mean a person with no super powers, or does it mean someone who is just, well, normal?  Professional athlete?  Not normal.  Rocket scientist?  Not normal.  Olympic gold medalist?  Not normal.  Bank teller?  Normal.

 

These are the basic guidelines I use, without looking at weightlifting records or things like that (perhaps these are fairly generous, but I like having some separation in my NPCs):

 

0-5:  Invalids.  This is a person who is either very very sick, very old, or very young.  If it's strength, you're looking at a young child or a 90 year old woman.  If it's Dex, this is a stroke victim.  If it's mental stats, it's someone with a traumatic brain injury or severe retardation.  Presence?  Someone with crippling social anxiety issues or perhaps autism.

 

5-9:  Incompetent.  This is a person who is noticeably below average at their given stat for a healthy adult.  A 5'2" tall 14 year old girl (Str).  The clumsy guy who is always knocking things over (Dex).  The guy who is just plain Homer Simpson dumb (Int).

 

10-12:  Average.  Normal people.  Joe on the street.  90% of the people you interact with.  Not particularly smart.  Not particularly strong.  Not particularly anything.

 

13-15:  The best at your high school / at your office.  The kid who made straight As (15 Int).  The quarterback (13 Str 14 Dex).  The best salesman in the office (15 Pre).  At this stage you're dealing with someone who is impressive at a local level.  They have a local reputation for their stat.  Now this does not mean that a local person is limited to this stat level (those guys with 18s and 23s went to high school somewhere), but this is the average for those guys.  

 

Note:  This should also be considered the average for someone in a "normal" stat-related professional field.  Your average medical doctor (Int), engineer (Int), lawyer (Pre), or burly construction worker (Str) would have a stat somewhere in this range.

 

16-20:  Best at your college / in your town.  You're the starting running back at Notre Dame.  You're one of the smartest guys at the University of Michigan.  You work for a world renowned organization.  You are a rocket scientist at NASA.  In sports, people watch you on TV.  If you are a member of a profession, other people in your line of work come to see you practice.  You are known far and wide as a skilled lawyer / surgeon / chemist.

 

Note:  This does not mean everybody who works for NASA has an 18 Int, or that every successful trial lawyer has a 20 Pre.  Some guys who make tons of money and are very well known aren't actually any good.  In the real world there are always some 8s and 10s who slip in there and do well for themselves.  And someone can always have a somewhat lower stat and buy up their skill level.

 

21-25:  Best in the (mostly) real world.  Bruce Lee (Dex).  Lance Armstrong (when doping - Con).  Sheldon Cooper (Int).  Michael Jordan and other professional/Olympic athletes (combinations of physical stats).  Bill Clinton, John F. Kennedy (Pre).  World famous for your stat, whether it's strength, speed, or sheer personal magnetism.

 

26-30:  Comic book normal humans, or 21-25s with help to make them look good.  Captain America.  Batman.  Arnold Schwarzenegger in his movies (they take the engine out of the car before he flips it over -- but he still flips it over).  Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan when they can film the scene 10 times until he gets the move right.  A US President with a great speechwriter.  Stephen Hawking when he has an army of grad students to check his work.

 

30+:  A normal human when any pretense at realism has been thrown to the side.  Moses Hightower in the Police Academy movies (Str).  The old black and white Lone Ranger (Dex).  Hannibal Lecter, Tony Stark, or sometimes Steve Urkel (Int).  Whether it's lazy writing, a very flexible genre, or just done for purposes of comedy, things that are clearly superhuman are allowed, even if the person exists in a world with no superpowers.

[zslane]

Well, there's normal and then there's Normal. In the Hero System, a Normal is a character that doesn't have superpowers. They might have Talents, but not Powers in the superhero idiom (they could be used to emulate a new Talent perhaps). So when we speak of the limits of a Normal in this game, we mean characters without superpowers, and in terms of characteristics that means under 30. Anything above that is, by default, not considered Normal but Superpowered.

[Lord Liaden]

In other words, for purposes of where the designers of the game, Champions, consider "human strength tops out on the strength chart," there is consensus. Among players of the game, not so much.

[IndianaJoe3]

I don't think there's any significant disagreement on where a real-world human tops out. The real disagreement is where a normal human in a heroic fictional world tops out.

[bigdamnhero]

The reason we always have these debates about STR is it's the only characteristic in Hero that's benchmarked to the real world, ie lifting strength. Every other characteristic is completely subjective.

[Greywind]

There's also debates on things like "maximum human potential" in regards to STR levels.

[Echo3Niner]

"Don't try to solve the debate,  That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth."

 

"What truth?"

 

"There is no debate."

[wcw43921]

"Don't try to solve the debate,  That's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth."

 

"What truth?"

 

"There is no debate."

 

"Then you will realize that it is not the debate that is solved, but you."

[CaptainCoulson]

"Then you will realize that it is not the debate that is solved, but you."

"Huh."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its time for the Sphinx to tell us all.  We'll be better heroes for it.