Vehicle Combat

[WistfulD]

Has anyone had any extensive experience actually using the vehicle rules and actually running combat between/with vehicles?

 

My group is going to be doing a space opera campaign and are wondering if the vehicle rules work very well.

[Ndreare]

We used the system for war gaming a while back and found it sufficient.

We had rules for the maximum number of times an advantage can be selected and required technology be developed by a fleet rather than just letting everyone have whatever.

Since our game was using starships the acceleration and deceleration rules were critical and one of the first things we had to learn.

 

PS: That was back in 5th edition, but I am sure it will still be playable in 6th edition.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Has anyone had any extensive experience actually using the vehicle rules and actually running combat between/with vehicles?

 

My group is going to be doing a space opera campaign and are wondering if the vehicle rules work very well.

Yes, I have also used it for Space Opera as well as Mecha campaigns, and the vehicles rules work very well in that context.

 

You really need to sit down with the Vehicles rules and think about how to approach them.  There's so much you can do with them.  A lot of people don't really think it out very much and thus they think vehicles in Hero are an afterthought.  They aren't.  It's really dependent upon what you put into making the vehicles that counts (Just like with characters).

 

The main thing is to balance out the Defense vs Damage ratios.  Don't forget to configure them so that they perform accordingly when you attack "squishies" as well, so you don't have characters routinely surviving a blast from a mounted plasma cannon.  This is a delicate balance that can easily be skewed, but it is achievable.

 

The combat itself is fine.  I suggest using Dogfight and Intercept combat, as that helps the combats feel like battles between ships rather than characters.  The Dogfight combat especially can be really cool, if you Roleplay the dice rolls.  Remember that Dogfight combat takes place over the course of an entire 12 second Turn, so describe what is happening during those 12 seconds.  

 

Example: 

 

Luke is piloting his X-Wing and encounters two Tie Fighters.  They are facing each other.  Luke's X-wing is faster than the Tie Fighters so Luke gets a +1 to his Piloting roll.  Rolls are made, and Luke beats 1 Tie by 4 points (good roll) and the other by 2 points.  Luke gets to fire at each Tie once, and one Tie gets a shot off at Luke.  The GM should now describe how the vehicles are maneuvering to get into position as you prepare to make attack rolls.

 

Don't forget to throw obstacles into the mix.  Debris from destroyed space craft.  Space junk (especially in planetary orbits) Asteroid belts (which provides penalties to each pilots roll, making dogfighting difficult) a city scape with tall skyscrapers etc.  Space Opera is all about action and adventure, and this should be most true during a rousing space battle. 

[WistfulD]

Which book has the dogfight rules?

[L. Marcus]

For 6E? It's in the Advanced Player's Guide. 5E had them in the rulebook.

[WistfulD]

Yes, I have also used it for Space Opera as well as Mecha campaigns, and the vehicles rules work very well in that context.

 

You really need to sit down with the Vehicles rules and think about how to approach them.  There's so much you can do with them.  A lot of people don't really think it out very much and thus they think vehicles in Hero are an afterthought.  They aren't.  It's really dependent upon what you put into making the vehicles that counts (Just like with characters).

 

The main thing is to balance out the Defense vs Damage ratios.  Don't forget to configure them so that they perform accordingly when you attack "squishies" as well, so you don't have characters routinely surviving a blast from a mounted plasma cannon.  This is a delicate balance that can easily be skewed, but it is achievable.

We are starting out the weakest weapons as doing much as heavy rifles and going from there (kinda like WWI fighters being equiped with lewis guns and WWII fighters using ~20mm machine guns. Our campaign is vaguely Guardians-of-the-Galaxy-ish, so if a tank character can stand up to a fighter's gun, that's fine.

 

I am unimpressed with the relationship between points an power for vehicles. With all the megascales adding +1-+2 to everything, OIF Bulky or immobile subtracting -1--2 to everything, the actual point cost seems to be not very related to utility. That, plus breaking their own rules (enhanced senses as a VPP much?) just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Therefore, we're going to be buying vehicles based on money and not points.

 

That said, I read the dogfight and intercept rules, and they do a very good job of translating what otherwise would not work at all well in the Heroes system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

 

 

We are starting out the weakest weapons as doing much as heavy rifles and going from there (kinda like WWI fighters being equiped with lewis guns and WWII fighters using ~20mm machine guns. Our campaign is vaguely Guardians-of-the-Galaxy-ish, so if a tank character can stand up to a fighter's gun, that's fine.

 

Ah, high powered Space Opera.  I do that as well.  I have cyborgs and powered armor that can stand up to medium grade space fighter weaponry and a man-portable plasma cannon that can engage small freighters reliably (6D6k damage!)

 

 

I am unimpressed with the relationship between points an power for vehicles. With all the megascales adding +1-+2 to everything, OIF Bulky or immobile subtracting -1--2 to everything, the actual point cost seems to be not very related to utility. That, plus breaking their own rules (enhanced senses as a VPP much?) just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Therefore, we're going to be buying vehicles based on money and not points.

 

Absolutely DO NOT buy vehicles based on Character Points.  This only works in a super hero game and even then, barely.  Design your vehicles to function how you want them to function, then charge the appropriate amount of money for them, like you would in every other sci-fi game in existence.

 

If you look at Starship designs in the Terran Empire, that can give you an idea of how ships can be written up, however the one's in Terran Empire are overdone and horribly unbalanced.  It seems the author of TE wanted starships that sat there and slugged it out over dozens and dozens of Turns.  If you want more  rousing Space Opera style battles where ships can blow each other out of the sky with a few well placed shots, then you need to get your balance of Damage vs Defense right for the feel you want.

Other equipment can be written up in various ways, depending on how you want them to interact with your system.  My main advice is that when you decide on how you do some piece of technology (Sensors, for example) stick to it because consistency goes a long way to making technology seem technological in this game rather than like powers.  I rather ignore the VPP sensor array idea and write each sensor up individually.  That way each type of sensor can be interfered with and taken out/damaged as apposed to the array itself.  Since I don't worry about point costs with the vehicles in my games, this is not an issue for me (with the VPP sensor array you still have to write up the various sensor abilities, you just pay for the pool...completely unnecessary when the vehicle point cost is irrelevant)

 

Decide if ECM is done via Power Defense or a Skill vs Skill contest  or as Suppress/Drain.  Decide on the range and effectiveness of sensors.  Decide on the range of armor defense vs Force Field defense.  Decide how your Force Fields are powered and if they regenerate. (example, I have Force Fields cost END and run on Charges.  Each time the Force Field is breached by an attack, it looses 1 Charge.  The Charges regenerate at a rate of 1 per Turn or 1 per minute)  Just sit down with the book and go through every part of the vehicles operation and decide how those things work in your campaign.  Once you do that, designing vehicles is a breeze.

 

 

That said, I read the dogfight and intercept rules, and they do a very good job of translating what otherwise would not work at all well in the Heroes system.

Yes, I rather like the dogfighting rules in Hero.  They work pretty well in practice too.

[Christougher]

There's been at least one thread, probably several, on using variant Martial Arts rules to do dogfighting combat.

 

Chris.

[WistfulD]

There's been at least one thread, probably several, on using variant Martial Arts rules to do dogfighting combat.

 

Chris.

Do you have any links for those? As I recall the search function is still down.

[WistfulD]

Okay, so the basic rules seem relatively fine. The detachment from point cost certainly helped (people were rather upset at the idea of buying the ship's speed, plus the associated endurance for continuous powers, and then having to buy the same speed for the people manning the stick and guns as well). OCV/DCV is a sticking point. Am I correct that you're almost always at half DCV (because you're undoubtedly moving at non-combat speeds)? Are you also then at 0 OCV?

[NuSoardGraphite]

No. it is assumed that combat vehicles meant to do battle using modern sensors (radar etc) can do battle at noncombat speeds and maintain full OCV. also the DCV remains full, or you can use the optional velocity based DCV. (Which gets quite high)

 

If a character wants to use their naked eye to attack an opponent, that's when i would drop their CV to 1/2 unless they slowed to combat speeds.

[Shigeru]

I simply cannot appreciate the "vehicles only move on the segments associated with their SPD". It makes no sense to me. They sit stock still for 2-3 seconds and only move forward on their phases? With the velocity they built up on their previous phase? I hate it.

 

I am trying to adapt Autoduel Champions for 5th Edition for a Science Fiction game. Its so different. Vehicles had no DEX or SPD. They had a TURN value (not to be confused with Turn Mode) that established how well the vehicle handled. Movement was on a per-segment basis, with drivers/pilots able to take maneuvers on whatever segments they want (with penalties to control rolls if their velocity was greater than their vehicle's handling score, etc). It allows for constant motion and really feels more like a moving battle rather than the stop/start of standard HERO movement. 

 

Its all about the Segmented movement for me, in the end.

[Ndreare]

Nothing slows down combat more than segmented movement. However if the purpose of the battle is to simulate a highly detailed combat then it can add a lot to detail. 

I have a game (out of print now) call Starfleet Battles based of of the original Star Treck. It broke down combat and movements down in high detail. It was awesome and worked out to very tactical combat spooled around energy management.

 

With all that in mind I would suggest doing it with only one or two vehicles before trying to go into a full scale conflict.

[Shigeru]

Nothing slows down combat more than segmented movement. However if the purpose of the battle is to simulate a highly detailed combat then it can add a lot to detail. 

I have a game (out of print now) call Starfleet Battles based of of the original Star Treck. It broke down combat and movements down in high detail. It was awesome and worked out to very tactical combat spooled around energy management.

 

With all that in mind I would suggest doing it with only one or two vehicles before trying to go into a full scale conflict.

 

Yeah, the slowdown is a definite concern.

[Ndreare]

 It makes no sense to me. They sit stock still for 2-3 seconds and only move forward on their phases? With the velocity they built up on their previous phase? I hate it.

 

 

As a note, this is true in every game, no matter how finely you try to tune it. What you should imagine is that the model is moving the whole time and its location is only measured at that one point. After all even if measuring speed in thirtieths of a second like a video game inevitably you will need an absolute stop point for mapping in a game if maps are used.

 

Imagination has to fill in those gaps (unless you are playing a video game). 

[Shigeru]

As a note, this is true in every game, no matter how finely you try to tune it. What you should imagine is that the model is moving the whole time and its location is only measured at that one point. After all even if measuring speed in thirtieths of a second like a video game inevitably you will need an absolute stop point for mapping in a game if maps are used.

 

Imagination has to fill in those gaps (unless you are playing a video game). 

 

I can't claim I'm not obsessive. 

[Greywind]

Nothing slows down combat more than segmented movement. However if the purpose of the battle is to simulate a highly detailed combat then it can add a lot to detail. 

I have a game (out of print now) call Starfleet Battles based of of the original Star Treck. It broke down combat and movements down in high detail. It was awesome and worked out to very tactical combat spooled around energy management.

 

With all that in mind I would suggest doing it with only one or two vehicles before trying to go into a full scale conflict.

 

I'm not sure it's OOP.

 

http://www.starfleetgames.com/

[WistfulD]

It is owned by a solvent corporation which facilitates it's purchase via print-on-demand. Since nothing has come out since 2010, and even their own forums (which are neolithic compaired to this functional-but-austere setup) seem to be near dead, I think that it'd be safe to say that it isn't really supported.

[Greywind]

Check their Facebook.

[Hyper-Man]

The turn order in Starfleet Battles is very similar to that of Champions/HERO.  The biggest difference is the number of segments/phases per turn is different in SB (with different names of course). Not sure which came first but it wouldn't surprise me if one influenced the other.

 

re: Vehicles SPD

 

Vehicles and characters usually move every segment (flying, running or swimming at least).  The Phases just represent the degree of control - that is to say - how often something can be changed whether it be velocity and/or direction.  However, since HERO combat already allows for Multiple attack actions in a single Phase via Multiple Attack and Rapid Attack there is no reason a vehicle combat version of those maneuvers and skills could not be developed as well.

[Greywind]

SFB came first.

[Hyper-Man]

I would love to find a group of experienced SFB players and play some time-travel scenario battles with the Movie era version Enterprise-A (basically an X-Ship) vs. an equal point group of TV Show era opposing ships (Klingon, Romulan, Orion, etc..).

[Ndreare]

With a little work you could set it up on roll 20. We have a star ship battle game we use and it works great even though my brother is in Florida and I live in Washington state.

[Hyper-Man]

I know I must sound like a relic but I work in IT and from home quite a bit.  I want my gaming to be in person. I just don't have the patience to learn another online interface. I have yet to play HERO online.  I'll do that before I try SFB (a game I haven't even looked at in nearly 20 years!).

[CaptnStrawberry]

I'm the same way - it's just not the same without social interaction! 

 

I've never played SFB, but I do have Federation Commander, which is basically a streamlined, easier to play adaptation of the older system.  You might want to check it out.