GMs: How cinematic are you? (versus realistic)

[redleaf]

I've been toying with the Savage Worlds system. Of course, Hero is my first love. In my opinion, the problem with other systems is that they sacrifice realism in favor of a "cinematic" approach to simulation. What I mean is, they leave a lot up to the GM.

 

The problem with rules systems that are not Hero: As GM, I feel I can't kill a player character, since I am defining the reality of the situation, so if the roll ends in death then it seems like I bent it that way, so I feel pressure to give the player/character an out, where I would not in a highly realistic system like Hero.

 

No, I don't go into every adventure hell-bent on killing the PC's. Well, actually, sort of I do. I feel it's up to the players to avoid that "painted into the corner" moment where the rules say you gotta pay the piper...You made a series of decisions and now it's a handful of D6's that amount to a massive killing attack. (You let the reporter stay to watch the fight, now the subway train is bearing down on him, and you have to push him out of the way and take that hit.)

 

To me, without that possibility hanging over the players/characters, there is no dramatic tension in the game. If the system requires the GM to make too many on-the-fly rules, most GM's will be softhearted and give the players a much bigger chance (CINEMATIC) than they would have had if they been using the specifics of the Hero system.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is: I can't enjoy non-Hero systems (or, at least low-complexity cinematic rules systems).

 

What are your thoughts on this? Have you been in a non-Hero game and had these feelings?

[Jazzidemus]

Like you my go-to system is Hero, my other love is the Interlock system, Cyberpunk 2020 in particular, which can be a lethal system. Cinematic is good, I always put Story before Mechanics no matter the Rule set. I like how it has been said in many Books, The Golden Rule- Have fun.

 

I have been in games where the GM scripts a character death, and there is Nothing you can do about it, then the other extreme is a character never dies no matter what. I don't head hunt. Now if i set something up and it isn't meant to be a fight but more of a cerebral exercise and they still want to fight Grond well then Grond Smash, or  poke Menton and Menton turns your brain into Tapioca pudding. I would say this Go with your story, never be afraid of a character death, hell it could turn into a side arc. lol it's the Comics who stays dead. Just make the death mean something, or even better if you do wanna script it, let the player in on it and watch the other players jaws drop when it goes down. The participating Player has to keep it on the down low but it can make for powerful storytelling.

 

Cinematics start and end with you, some systems make it easier than others but once you know a system you can work it in.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hero is pretty flexible, it can be very gritty and specific or pretty vague and cinematic to use the old term.  The thing is, when Hero first came out, everyone considered it super unrealistic and cinematic because it was so hard to kill people, and that's pretty much the only way you could defeat people in the other systems.

[TheQuestionMan]

Hmmm... STR 15, Large Knife1d6 HKA, and say 2 Damage Classes from Martial Arts or Push STR.

 

Equals 8 Damage Classes/ 3d6-1 HKA average 10 BODY instant kill versus Normal Human.

 

Not so conematic as lethal. Then use Hit Location modifiers.

 

Not lethal? ROFLOL

 

QM

[Comic]

IRL, most people who die of gunshot wounds are shot more than once, and many people who are shot more than once survive with proper medical attention.

 

Champions scales fairly well with this reality.

 

It's GMs who don't live in a statistically realistic domain.

 

GM's live in a cinematographic frame, more often than most. Our players merely don't disabuse us of our disconnects.

[Tigereye]

Although I'm not deliberately aiming for the effect, I've been told I'm pretty cinematic. The reason why, I suppose, is I always aim for at least one set piece per adventure that would probably make a good movie climax. I often try to settle for something that would make a decent book climax, but often times take it just that little bit higher...sometimes I go over the top.

 

A friend of mine said my adventures reminded him of "an ensemble sitcom... as directed by John Woo."

 

Realism takes a back seat in some instances in my campaigns - we're dealing with fantasy universes here in even the so-called "grittiest" ones - but if it has the flavor of reality, it can have some suspension of disbelief. I've been accused as having little patience for GMs who try to make their systems too "realistic" - it can add too much complexity, which often detracts from enjoyment for players; and is it even possible in a superhero game, for example? Instead, I try to make my campaigns internally consistent and logical, even if the internal laws have little to do with reality.

 

Sometimes you want "grittiness" and some baseline realism - I get that. (I mean, one of my campaigns is a WWII German Luftwaffe setting for GURPS- The characters have to maintain what humanity they can, while not jeopardizing their combat pilot careers - which is not an easy task in Nazi Germany!) But I have learned to put enjoyment over reality, as this is meant to be entertaining and an acceptable break from reality...

[Jazzidemus]

I guess it depends at what level your playing at if your agent level, I think no matter the rule set dive for cover but as you scale up, your threats scale with. I still think cinematics is a tool not necessarily a product or by-product of the Rules, Just a setting treatment that the GM is striving for. ( I hope this makes sense, I'm medicated and fighting a cold, bear with me guys)

[zslane]

I thought death came when a character reached -BODY. How would taking 10 BODY killing damage be insta-kill? That would drop a normal human to 0. Even if they went a couple points negative, they would be bleeding, losing 1 BODY per Turn until reaching -BODY. Again, not exactly instant death.

 

As for Savage Worlds, most GMs don't find much need to go soft on PCs because of bennies. Players get lots of opportunities to denude damage and pull their characters' fats out of the fire on their own by using bennies; the GM rarely has to intervene during the action.

 

In terms of Champions, the availability of high defenses makes dying extremely rare among supers. As a GM, you'd have to make the heroes face a lot of really big KAs in order to worry much about character death. And in my experience, KAs are just not that common, even for villains. And that is probably where the GM's cinematic or lethal touch is most felt: the degree to which they introduce big KAs into the mix. For an authentic four-color feel, you gotta keep the KAs to a minimum.

[sinanju]

In my view, it has very little to do with the rules you're using and a lot to do with your approach as a GM. I mean, ultimately, the GM has the power to arbitrarily kill off any character in any game. He has the whole game world at his command. Also, the GM always has the option of ignoring the die roll that would kill a character and substituting something less lethal and more entertaining (for the characters and players).

 

That said, the longer I play rpgs the more I'm drawn to rules-lite systems. Maybe because I passed thru my slavish "He who lives by the die roll shall die by the die roll!" phase many, many years ago. I'm more and more about telling an entertaining story and less about simulationism. And by "telling an entertaining story" I do NOT mean railroading the players thru a predesigned plot--I mean making the game entertaining for everyone, even when--or perhaps especially when--it means deviating from the original plotline because something you never foresaw happening is clearly more fun than sticking to the plan. Rules-lite systems make that sort of thing easier, but crunchy systems don't make it impossible, just more difficult.

 

Of course, it also depends (as usual) on what the OTHER players want out of the game. If you've got a group of players who love to throw their characters into dangerous situations knowing that a few (or even one) bad die roll could cripple or kill them, well, that's what entertains THEM. If you've got players who love interacting with NPCs and engaging in melodrama, that's what entertains THEM. Maybe they can cooperate and get a little of both in a game...or maybe they really need to be two different gaming groups (or at least in separate campaigns).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hit Locations were added to the rules as Hero developed, so they weren't part of the picture of lethality for the game originally.  Neither were the rules for disabling and impairing wounds.  Those were first in ... I want to say Danger International?  But as zslane notes, even a nasty hit to the head won't kill you instantly with hit locations.  Hero is characterized - like real life, from what I understand, but not dramatic scenes in movies - by stun damage.  You knock targets out long before you kill them.

 

However, with the optional rules, you can dial up lethality considerably and it can be very dangerous in Hero combat.  Disabling wounds + hit locations = lots of quick deaths unless you're real careful.

[Jazzidemus]

Case in point, I was playing an archer in a DC game I had a blunt arrow 3d6 and I called a head shot to knock the guy out, even told my gm I wanted to jst knock him out, he applied the dmg from the arrow and the location, and I turned the guy into a vegatable. Not my intention, cinematic vs realism. I would say if you want to use hit locations dial down the dmg for cinematics

[Jazzidemus]

I was rather peeved by my gm and his decision to not allow me to 'pull my punch'

[zslane]

You shoulda used your boxing glove arrow then...

[Markdoc]

I thought death came when a character reached -BODY. How would taking 10 BODY killing damage be insta-kill? That would drop a normal human to 0. Even if they went a couple points negative, they would be bleeding, losing 1 BODY per Turn until reaching -BODY. Again, not exactly instant death.

 

Dropping an ordinary person to the point where they are bleeding out at 1 BOD per turn means that they will be dead (as in "significantly dead" ) in a couple of minutes. That's about what you get from being shot through the heart. I've seen trauma cases up close and personal and I have even seen a fatal shooting (two 7.56 rounds right through the chest) as it happened. I've been shot (in the head, no less!) myself - and went around with a large steel plate in my skull for years. The gamers' idea that a fatal wound is something that kills instantly - as in, kills in a fraction of second - is an artifact of TV and film where people get shot, fall down and lie still (or from systems where you're fine up until you lose your last hitpoint and then you are dead). That happens, very, very rarely in real life - pretty much the only thing that will kill outright is a large calibre wound with severe brain penetration. (Or you know, gross trauma like having a a couple of tonnes of concrete plate dropped on you from a few metres up - that'll do it too). In reality, even severe head wounds are rarely fatal in a moment - it's just that people in that situation fall down and bleed out quickly, and there's often little or nothing you can do about it.

 

So in real life terms, down and bleeding out in a minute or two is an instant kill. That's what happens in real life when people are shot in the head or a crucial organ. So in that regard, Hero is relatively realistic. The really unrealistic part is how easy it is to "paramedic" someone back to life once they hit that point: in real life, if you are bleeding to the extent that you are going to be past the point of resuscitation inside two minutes, then really, you are beyond saving unless you happen to be already inside a very well-equipped hospital ... and even then, your odds are extremely poor.

 

cheers, Mark

[redleaf]

Dropping an ordinary person to the point where they are bleeding out at 1 BOD per turn means that they will be dead (as in "significantly dead" ) in a couple of minutes. That's about what you get from being shot through the heart. I've seen trauma cases up close and personal and I have even seen a fatal shooting (two 7.56 rounds right through the chest) as it happened. I've been shot (in the head, no less!) myself - and went around with a large steel plate in my skull for years. The gamers' idea that a fatal wound is something that kills instantly - as in, kills in a fraction of second - is an artifact of TV and film where people get shot, fall down and lie still (or from systems where you're fine up until you lose your last hitpoint and then you are dead). That happens, very, very rarely in real life - pretty much the only thing that will kill outright is a large calibre wound with severe brain penetration. (Or you know, gross trauma like having a a couple of tonnes of concrete plate dropped on you from a few metres up - that'll do it too). In reality, even severe head wounds are rarely fatal in a moment - it's just that people in that situation fall down and bleed out quickly, and there's often little or nothing you can do about it.

 

So in real life terms, down and bleeding out in a minute or two is an instant kill. That's what happens in real life when people are shot in the head or a crucial organ. So in that regard, Hero is relatively realistic. The really unrealistic part is how easy it is to "paramedic" someone back to life once they hit that point: in real life, if you are bleeding to the extent that you are going to be past the point of resuscitation inside two minutes, then really, you are beyond saving unless you happen to be already inside a very well-equipped hospital ... and even then, your odds are extremely poor.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Thanks, Mark. This is what I thought reality was like. I always felt that once you hit 0 Body that a "Normal" person bleeding out in under two minutes was frighteningly close to reality, and that Hero really nailed it. "Good" to hear it does reflect reality, from someone who's seen it. (Although I'm positive it's not pleasant to have witnessed.)

[zslane]

I guess I have a different definition for "instant" than others do. In Champions, several Turns of "bleeding to death" provides plenty of time for any number of Heal/Aid powers to get applied. To me, instant death is the kind that happens in the same Segment that the damage is applied. The fact that a successful Paramedics Roll is sufficient to stop the 1/Turn death march shows that the Hero System is somewhat cinematic by default. But it obviously takes little effort to get a campaign into "gritty realism" territory.

[TheQuestionMan]

How about Instant Subdual then.

 

BODY 0 means mortally wounded in my book.

 

Hard to be cinematic when your bleeding out.

 

Cue Buffy "Death Scene" or "Last Action Hero" version.

 

Drama and Comedy.

 

QM

[Markdoc]

I guess I have a different definition for "instant" than others do. In Champions, several Turns of "bleeding to death" provides plenty of time for any number of Heal/Aid powers to get applied. To me, instant death is the kind that happens in the same Segment that the damage is applied. The fact that a successful Paramedics Roll is sufficient to stop the 1/Turn death march shows that the Hero System is somewhat cinematic by default. But it obviously takes little effort to get a campaign into "gritty realism" territory.

 

Sure. I'm just pointing out that in real life "instant death" (from shooting or stabbing, not from massive trauma) is extremely rare and it almost always actually takes a few minutes. The "unrealistic" part is not that - but the fact that it's so easy to "heal" someone who is not actually really, really dead in Hero system (or in just about any RPG system, for that matter). In real life, even a fully trained and equipped paramedic team can do very little for a person with major internal bleeding - even though that person is walking and talking. 

 

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single game that handles injury in anything like a realistic fashion ... but then, I'm not sure we want one that does. I'm firmly on the cinematic side in this case: I'm not really interested in playing Bedpans and Bandages.

 

cheers, Mark

[L. Marcus]

Too much like Real Life.

[Markdoc]

Sure. I'm just pointing out that in real life "instant death" (from shooting or stabbing, not from massive trauma) is extremely rare and it almost always actually takes a few minutes. "Instant death" is not realistic - it's actually cinematic. The "unrealistic" part is not that - but the fact that it's so easy to "heal" someone who is not actually really, really dead in Hero system (or in just about any RPG system, for that matter). In real life, even a fully trained and equipped paramedic team can do very little for a person with major internal bleeding - even though that person is walking and talking. 

 

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single game that handles injury in anything like a realistic fashion ... but then, I'm not sure we want one that does. I'm firmly on the cinematic side in this case: I'm not really interested in playing Bedpans and Bandages.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Huh - guess I hit quote instead of edit

[L. Marcus]

Such silliness.

[Jazzidemus]

I guess if you want to go grittier, DC is the way to go they even expanded the hit chart, to include that ever pesky eye shot. When you absolutly want to make that bad guy feel even worse. I really wanna make Grond even cranckier, hey GM I poke him in the eye with my katana.

[Badger]

Well, this is actually why I sometimes have avoided being a GM at times.  As I big on leaning heavy to the realism side of the scale.  (maybe more the "cold, hard numbers" than anything else).   I guess it developed from movies/TV/literature/etc.  often pulling some implausible way to save the heroes out of nowhere. Which leaves me disappointed because it leaves a feeling that the heroes didnt earn it.  Or more specifically some omnipotent referee bet on the heroes and he called the villains on some bullcrap penalty, so he can save his own self from the bookies.  (heck, I think one episode of the 80s Thunder ats, the uberweapon that the Mutants were curbstomping the Thundercats all episode with just spontaneously exploded, no explanation)

 

Well, anyway, back to GMing.  I am always worried about being too realistic.   Letting the PCs fight their own way too much. putting too much against them, etc.

[zslane]

I guess it comes down to what sort of roleplaying experience you and your players want. Most RPGers I know, incuding myself, play to escape into a more cinematic world of heightened reality and epic heroism. Every morning I wake into a world of mundane realism where too often the consequences of trying to be a hero is a trip to the ER or the morgue. Obviously, as players, we all want to feel we have agency within the game world, but at the same time, we want the game world to reward us for heroic action in a way the real world rarely ever does. That means the system has to be skewed towards the cinematic, or the GM has to impose a sense of the cinematic on the system.