Arabian Nights=Swords & Sorcery?

[Steve]

I've been poking at making a desert campaign setting that will probably use Al Qadim and Dark Sun for inspiration sources when it suddenly occurred to me that an Arabian Nights style campaign seems to be very much a Swords & Sorcery type of setting, maybe with a few more magic trinkets like a flying carpet scattered here and there. Heroes are usually warriors and thieves (like Aladdin and Sinbad) and the villain is often a sorcerer using spirits to work magic. Does that seems an accurate way to look at it?

[Old Man]

Yes.

[mhd]

Are we talking about the Fairbanks/Disney/Harryhausen version of the 1001 nights or one of the historic ones?

[Steve]

It will probably be closer to pop culture than historic. I'm using Al Qadim as a basis among other sources.

[mhd]

Then you're basically asking whether something filtered through a S&S lens looks like S&S.

[Steve]

That's a fair point. Would S&S also fit the classic source material?

[thewomble]

That's a fair point. Would S&S also fit the classic source material?

I don't remember many straight up fights or heroic warriors in the original Tales From 1001 Nights, which is the major source for what we think of as Arabian fantasy. There is a lot of sneakery and outwitting going on, though. Djinn are more prominent than evil sorcerers. My memory is a bit hazy as I read a translation (not Burton's famous one) more than 20 years ago. But definitely worth a read to get some  authentic flavor after all of the Howard, Al Qadim and Disney that give us a watered-down fantasy Arab world.

[mhd]

That's a fair point. Would S&S also fit the classic source material?

It's been a while, but there was a lot more allegory and even mystery in the version that I've read than magic swords and evil viziers. So plenty of other genres would seem a more appropriate fit to the original tales. Conan didn't solve that many murder mysteries. Also, a lot less wenching going on.

 

IIRC, Jafar was the (co-)protagonist quite often, not a black-clad baddie with a German accent.

[Lucius]

Two of the stories at least have become standards in Western collections of "fairy tales" or children's stories: Aladdin and the Lamp, and Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves.

 

I read Burton's translation, but it was decades ago. Here is what I remember.

 

Djinn, in a sometimes bewildering variety of tribes and types, are prominent. Their capricious actions often set the plot in motion, as for example on a lark picking up a person and conveying them across the world in their sleep so that they awaken to find themselves in a strange land, in a strange city, and in someone else's bed (and not alone in it either) or suddenly appearing out of nowhere to threaten death to a person who has inadvertently offended them, who must usually be rescued by thier own or another's quick thinking or persuasive speech or some stroke of outrageous fortune.

 

There are human magicians as well, often as villains but also as allies of the protagonists. Most of them seem to know forty modes of enchantment, by the least of which they can remove the stones of this city to beyond Mount Kaf.

 

I do seem to recall an enchannted sword or two, and other wondrous items such as flying carpets, lamps that summon Djinn, a statue of a horse that flies (that is, a flying statue of a horse, not just a statue of a flying horse,) magic rings, etc.

 

Kings and rulers can be as capricious as Djinn; the frame story features a king who made a practice of frequently marrying, and promptly executing his bride, and while he does cease and desist that habit, he isn't really called to account for it either.

 

I seem to recall that viziers were loyal more often than not, even though kings did not always reward loyalty.

 

There are some surprisingly amazonian women. In one tale, a whole nation of warrior women, and in another, a martially inclined woman falls in love with the hero (who I don't recall doing any fighting on his own behalf) and cuts through an army to get herself and him out of her horrible infidel land and back to his wholesome Muslim country.

 

"Infidels" are generally bad guys of course; the worst are the fire worshippers, who are capable of all manner of depravity. Oddly enough, despite supposedly being good Moslems, the heroes often get to indulge in wine and women. But never bacon.

 

About those forty modes of enchantment. Transportation must be one (I think taking a city to Mount Kaf and back must be a graduation exercise at Enchanter's School) but Transformation is maybe even more popular. Alchemists change base metal into gold, curses change people into asses or apes or dogs, two Djinn fight a shapeshifter's duel in which each becomes in turn over a dozen different animals and objects, a vengeful sorceress traps a prince in a form designed for suffering; flesh from the waist up, stone from the wast down, alive and conscious but fixed in place.

 

Absolutely incredible coincidence happens almost as a matter of course. If something occurs that seems like a million to one chance, just wait ten minutes and something will happen that's ten million to one. Sudden reversals by which fortunes are won and lost cycle repeatedly. And those fortunes can be staggering; kings and rich merchants may seem to have unlimited wealth.

 

Battles, when they occur, tend to be an epic clash of armies more often than a pair of duelling swordsmen, but most heroes - while shown to be, or implied to be, capable of fighting if necessary - are more the trickster type, if they're not downright thieves or con men. Even caliphs and sultans may don disguises and go about incognito, looking for trouble.

 

If there is one motivation stronger than gold - from the poor person's desperate need to get enough to have some security or stability, to an ambitous merchant's hunger for profit driving him to risky and long voyages - it is love. Men and women kill for love, die for love, die OF love even. There is even one story, reminiscent of something out of chivalric romance, in which a man proclaims his undying love of a woman after seeing her portrait. Naturally, he ends up with her.

 

That's the Thousand and One Nights as I remember them. Now you have me really wishing I still had that book....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

There were no palindromedaries, but I suspect a palindromedary would be right at home in some of those stories....

[Ragitsu]

Is magic ever wielded by the good guys and/or main protagonists in a typical Arabian Nights setting?

[Markdoc]

Is magic ever wielded by the good guys and/or main protagonists in a typical Arabian Nights setting?

 

Yes - but pretty much always in the form of artifacts made by other people. I don't think there is a single good-guy protagonist magician - there are a few well-intentioned NPC magicians.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve]

I think this is what put it in my head that this was Swords & Sorcery. The heroes are thieves and warriors with the bad guys often being evil sorcerers. Heroes can have magic, but it is rare and usually in the form of some trinket or artifact.

[Markdoc]

To be fair, there are precious few warriors in there as well - most of the "heroes" are either tricksters or lucky fools. It's certainly not traditional S&S  - it's more fairy-story like: the heroes in the stories are usually underdogs who win through by luck and their wits than through a strong right arm. Even the more active heroes like Sinbad are more like Jack of Jack in the Beanstalk than like Conan.

 

You could - if you want that sort of flavour - get it by starting PCs with relatively low points totals and by making many of the opponents they face powerful enough that a simple sword to the face is not a reasonable approach. This will essentially force them to fall back on their wits - for good or ill.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its pretty easy to find the stories online, all 101 of them, so I suggest digging them up and reading.  Also worth looking into but harder to find are Jewish myths and legends, which are along the same kind of lines and fascinating reading.  There are people who use magic in the tales, but they are usually very, very limited and very powerful people (Solomon, for instance) and rare.

[Lucius]

I think this is what put it in my head that this was Swords & Sorcery. The heroes are thieves and warriors with the bad guys often being evil sorcerers. Heroes can have magic, but it is rare and usually in the form of some trinket or artifact.

Or an ally or mentor, sometimes as a kind of Deus ex machina.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Markdoc puts it well - the main characters are either scoundrels or "lucky fools" and the stories are often "fairie tale like."

[mhd]

Heroes can have magic, but it is rare and usually in the form of some trinket or artifact.

I never quite got why that should be a defining characteristic of S&S. This describes LotR better than e.g. Kane or Elric.

[Lucius]

I never quite got why that should be a defining characteristic of S&S. This describes LotR better than e.g. Kane or Elric.

But it does describe Conan, which I think many people take as the model.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Powers and Palindromedaries

[mhd]

But it does describe Conan, which I think many people take as the model.

Yeah, the franchise that spawned 1001 pastiches. But reducing S&S to just Conan and his ilk is like saying the Arabian Nights are just about Sinbad...

 

Speaking of Conan, could it be that the "Know oh prince[...]age undreamed of" narration is a reference to the Sheherezadian style of starting tales ("Know then, O my lord, that whilom my sire was king of this city...")?

[Lucius]

Yeah, the franchise that spawned 1001 pastiches. But reducing S&S to just Conan and his ilk is like saying the Arabian Nights are just about Sinbad...

 

Speaking of Conan, could it be that the "Know oh prince[...]age undreamed of" narration is a reference to the Sheherezadian style of starting tales ("Know then, O my lord, that whilom my sire was king of this city...")?

I am pretty sure it is. I don't doubt that the Arabian Nights were among R. E. Howard's inspirations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Know then, O Heroes, that after every post by Lucius Alexander falls a palindromedary tagline

[Old Man]

I never quite got why that should be a defining characteristic of S&S. This describes LotR better than e.g. Kane or Elric.

 

I'd say magic is less likely to be a PC ability (Conan, Fafhrd) but this isn't an absolute rule (Elric).  A better delineation is the availability and ease of magic--in S&S magic tends to be rarer and more difficult; implementing it usually requires elaborate rituals and/or appealing to supernatural entities. 

[mhd]

A better delineation is the availability and ease of magic--in S&S magic tends to be rarer and more difficult; implementing it usually requires elaborate rituals and/or appealing to supernatural entities. 

 

But compared to what? Pervasive magic seems like a rather new trend, probably post-dating D&D. Which itself was rather sword & sorcery-like, and I'd would guess that the OSR people would be the first to argue that even the magic-users of the olden days were assumed to be more unique and in league with certain entities...

 

Of course, then we had multiple adventuring groups in the same campaign and thus a justification for all this sorcery was needed, and thus magic became more commonplace and mundane.

 

And as fantasy authors tend to be of the nerdy persuasion, this concept informed a lot of novels from the 80s onwards. And it usually gets worse in the YA world, where magical versions of Tom Brown are hugely popular.

 

On the other hand, I never saw that many pre-'74 novels with fireballs and wizard academies (Earthsea being an exception, but then again, it usually is). So I'm not really sure whether easy access to magic -- for protagonists or not -- is such a defining factor. It's certainly not a dividing line between S&S and Tolkienistic "High Fantasy". Heck, I'd say that even the whole "barbarian prehistoric world" shtick is overrated in that regard, if one goes strictly by the books -- Aquilonian knights and Zingaran pirates were arguably better equipped than the riders of Rohan. Some protagonists came from backwards places, but we don't judge our current real world tech level by Amazonian tribesman standards either. I blame covers and 80s movies.

 

It's a pretty ill-defined genre in general, I'd say. A bit like "Heavy Metal".

[Old Man]

Of course it's ill-defined; every genre is ill-defined.  This S&S discussion is nothing compared to some of the flamewars I've seen over whether fantasy is a subset of SF, or whether SF stands for "science" or "speculative". 

 

But I'll keep trying.    To me it's not exactly access to magic that defines S&S but prevalence.  Magic is everywhere in Middle-Earth--rings, swords, phials, cloaks, doors, maps, horns, elves, and forests are all overtly magical there, and Gandalf calls it forth visibly with a word or gesture or pinecone.   In Earthsea wizards and sorcerers are commonplace enough that you could go find one if you needed to.

 

Conversely Elric is one of just a handful of sorcerers that you run into in his entire career, and even then his 'magic' is limited to Stormbringer and summoning powerful extradimensional beings, the latter only with difficulty or at great cost.  In Hyboria, sorcerers are very rare, usually up to no good, and typically found in forgotten ruins.  In Lankhmar magic is virtually nonexistent except for the prophecy and coincidence of Ningauble and Sheelba.

[L. Marcus]

Mouser began his career as a hedge wizard's apprentice, but I don't recall him ever using magic.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Rarely, Mouser did.  He used a massively powerful scroll in one of the books, and it should have killed him which showed either that he was a lot more capable wizard than he knew, or the magic didn't harm the user.

 

Elric's stories are largely sword and sorcery, but he wields incredibly powerful magic at times.

[mhd]

To me it's not exactly access to magic that defines S&S but prevalence.  Magic is everywhere in Middle-Earth--rings, swords, phials, cloaks, doors, maps, horns, elves, and forests are all overtly magical there, and Gandalf calls it forth visibly with a word or gesture or pinecone.   In Earthsea wizards and sorcerers are commonplace enough that you could go find one if you needed to.

Conan's first few adventures involve a elephant god trapped by a wizard, another wizard with a magic ring, Conan escaping from a dungeon to help a wizard fight another wizard, yet another wizard awakening from aeons of hibernation etc.

 

Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser encounter their share of magic, including bedding transparent women and running around the size of mice.

 

Let's not even mention Elric, Kane or Tempus...

 

Never mind that the term itself was coined to differentiate it from historic fiction, not other fantasy -- one might even say that back then it meant "fantasy", as we generally think of it these days (as opposed to other fiction that could be put under the same umbrella, like SF, "weird tales", paranormal stories etc.). If I remember correctly, its "opposite" high/epic fantasy is a term introduce later.

 

For me it mostly comes down to personal problems solved with swords. If at all (often survival is enough). I wish we'd just call it "barbarian stories", so that there's less confusion if we actually just mean Conan and his clones.

 

But anyhoo, I'd say that either way the original Arabian Nights tales hardly qualify as S&S, whereas the movie pastiches seem a closer match. Although there might a be a tad bit too much romance (of both kinds) in those...