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Rules Debate: CSL w/RMA


JmOz

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Let us say that a character has a small RMA Package (Three maneuvers): Called Combat Archery

 

Then said character in the tradition of Hawkeye and the Arrow clan has trick arrows (Say 10 slots)

 

For argument's sake he needs to take a use MA with powers weapon element.

 

Can he then use the 3 point CSL defined as working with his RMA and apply to his trick arrows? (Legal question)

 

If so should a GM loose his GM license for allowing it? (Ethical question)

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A 10-pt. multipower exceeds the definition of what is allowed for a 3 pt. csl. A GM who allows it is being too lenient. A Player who is trying to argue for it is not taking advantage of the rules, they are overassuming what the rules allow. How you adjuticate that, and how many mackerels are swung depends on how you interpret attempts to game the system. Some people consider it the player's job to overreach and the GM's job to curtail that tendency. Others do not see it that way.

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The 3 point CSL could be used for the martial arts on the basic slot, but it would be 5 point CSL to use it on the full multi power.

 

The rules specifically says group of 3 or less maneuvers or slots in a multi power very clear and hard to ignore

 

Champions Complete page 27

Fantasy Hero complete page 31

Hero System 6th page 70

Hero System 5th revised page 54

 

 

Now slap the player

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Personally I would allow the three point CSL in this example to be used with what I consider normal arrows (Things like Blunt arrows, AP arrows) but not "trick" arrows (Like bomb, or smoke). 

 

Please note what I just said before, before I say this:

 

I think by the letter of the rules it would be allowed as it is three maneuvers, however it defiantly fails the ethical standard.  The reason for this is that it is still three maneuvers, the fact that he can use multiple weapons does not change this.  I could and would allow a character in a Heroic campaign to use the same build and use different types of ammo (perhaps magic arrows).  Obviously there is a major change in that as a GM I control how much magic stuff they find and as such can modify it if and when it gets abused. 

 

Also I have a long standing rule at my table: Any cheese you bring to the table I will use as well and I am not restricted to character gen rules :angst:

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Apparently my reply never made it.

 

However I think the critical point to look at is that the archer paid for weapon element. Hence he should be able to use his 3pt. Csl with his trick arrows. Compare this to karate guy who has 3 manuevers and weapon element sword. There is no limitation that I'm aware of that precludes the of 3pt csl when using his martial strike to increase his damage with his sword.

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The line comes in when the 3 point CSL is used for more than three maneuvers and/or multi power slots. If I have an Arrow Tricks multi power including 5 slots but no martial arts it would still be illegal. Adding three additional options in the form of maneuvers does not magically make it more valid just because it reinforces by concept.

 

Instead the player can use the CSLs with his maneuvers in conjunction with the default power of an arrow or he can use his maneuvers with his multi power and it's ten slots for 30 total options ( not including the common maneuvers) well above the limits of a 3 point CSL.

 

I would suggest to the player perhaps taking +2 in 5 point CSLs instead of +3 in 3 point CSLs. It would save the headache and better fit with what is legal.

 

Outside of what the rules allow, when I see characters with 10 slot multi powers I automatically assume the players knows the rules, so I usually present these as questions rather than challenges.

Example; "which three maneuvers and or slots do these CSLs apply to?"

"I was thinking all of them"

"Oh, you must have missed it. A 3 point CSL only applies to three actions or less. Just change it to +2 in 5 point CSLs and it will do what you want."

 

That leaves the player without a defensive reaction and with a solution.

 

PS: then slap him because he knew and was hoping you did not.

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Apparently my reply never made it.

However I think the critical point to look at is that the archer paid for weapon element. Hence he should be able to use his 3pt. Csl with his trick arrows. Compare this to karate guy who has 3 manuevers and weapon element sword. There is no limitation that I'm aware of that precludes the of 3pt csl when using his martial strike to increase his damage with his sword.

No paying 1 point allows him to use his maneuvers with the trick shots. It does not increase the value of a separately defined mechanic.

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Like I said, I would have a sit down and explain that he is right, but for balance reasons I have to deny him the CSL's on the whole MP.  I would be willing to compromise (Maybe allowing all "Normal" arrows, even if more than 3).  However the question is one similar to adding advantages 

 

A NND attack is not that bad, but a NND, AE, Sticky, Continuous, on Cont. charges can be more effective than the points indicate (Especially if you can go desolid after the attack...)

 

By the rules the NND above can be legal, but it has to be looked at closely. 

 

The CSL's are only being used for 3 maneuvers (The 3 in the MA), thus legal,  the catch is those 3 can be used with 10 different slots. 

 

As someone else said, not many would really complain about the MA hero who can use his 3 maneuver MA with his weapons  MP of Sword/Nun chuck/Bo/Sai because at their core all four of those weapons are similar (They hit for the two most common damage types).  What makes the Archer MP different is that it has a lot of variety in its attacks (NND's, Flashes, Etc...) which makes the problem A LOT worse

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As a GM you are free to ignore the rule. But the OP asked for a rules debate. The rules are clear in every book from 5th edition on. Not more than three slots in a multi power.

Having a common or cool special effect does not change the rules. Instead special effect needs to be ignored completely when adjudicating the rules.

 

 

What makes your bow or sword special effect so much better than the guy who built a fire manipulator? The answer is nothing, hero is built with the underlying assumption of you pay for what you get and add a special effect after. The basic sword is a 0 end HKA, the basic bow is a RKA. This is specifically how CSLs are set up, with variable cost based on how many things you can do with them.

 

Each martial maneuver is much like a multi power slot, proving a highly discounted option to get NND, AP, extra DC or other modifiers.

 

 

I do not now, nor would I in the future believe in special Discounts or Taxes based on special effect. They have game for that, they are called Pathfinder or D&D.

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In a fantasy game were the character bought 3 point CSLs I would allow him to use those with standard type arrows. But if he had magic net arrows and fiery explosion arrows and what have you then yes. The characters training focused on bow and arrow did not include the magic version.

However if it was a one time effect such as grabbing the enemies weapon I would allow it, the same way I would allow a power trick.

 

For that matter if a character buys 5 martial arts maneuvers with the 1 point weapon element he would still be required to buy 5 point CSLs that is the way the rules are written. Again Adding a multiplier does not reduce the cost of having more than 3 slots/maneuvers.

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Oh Ndreare do you have fifth revised? Fifth rev. you can use 3pt. csl with any power framework regardless of how slots are in it.

 

And likewise it covers all the maneuvers in a single martial art whether two or twenty. (i think kung fu could have twenty). The three maneuvers are only for standard and optional maneuvers that anyone can use.

Edited by Ninja-Bear
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In a fantasy game were the character bought 3 point CSLs I would allow him to use those with standard type arrows. But if he had magic net arrows and fiery explosion arrows and what have you then yes. The characters training focused on bow and arrow did not include the magic version.

However if it was a one time effect such as grabbing the enemies weapon I would allow it, the same way I would allow a power trick.

 

For that matter if a character buys 5 martial arts maneuvers with the 1 point weapon element he would still be required to buy 5 point CSLs that is the way the rules are written. Again Adding a multiplier does not reduce the cost of having more than 3 slots/maneuvers.

Should have been more clear. I was talking about special arrows that are considered free equipment like the whistling arrow or smoke arrow that ninjas sometimes use. I didn't mean magic arrows.

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The 3 point CSL could be used for the martial arts on the basic slot, but it would be 5 point CSL to use it on the full multi power.

 

The rules specifically says group of 3 or less maneuvers or slots in a multi power very clear and hard to ignore

 

Champions Complete page 27

Fantasy Hero complete page 31

Hero System 6th page 70

Hero System 5th revised page 54

 

 

Now slap the player

I can't answer on any 6th edition but you are wrong on the fifth revised. Reread the notes in parenthesis.

 

I recall hearing that this was a change from fifth to sixth that you must declare no more than 3 maneuvers in a martial art to use a 3 pt, csl. it no longer covers all the said martial art.

Edited by Ninja-Bear
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Well actually Ninja Bear I just looked and I hate to tell you this, but you are completely right and I was completely wrong. 5th edition specifically states it can include a whole multi power and when rereading 6th it does state any group the game master considers smaller than a large group.

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Well actually Ninja Bear I just looked and I hate to tell you this, but you are completely right and I was completely wrong. 5th edition specifically states it can include a whole multi power and when rereading 6th it does state any group the game master considers smaller than a large group.

I will say this, for sake of simplicity I can see just charging him the 5pt. csl. I'm looking at the situation this was way. I'll assume that with all the csl they are within campaign limits. The archer is spending already somewhere between 40 to 50 points easily with maneuvers and powers. I'll also assume that the powers are oaf. So a big chunk of points can be made ineffective by disarm maneuver and grab which at the base level everyone can use against him being standard maneuvers. And he can be deprived the use by entangles which I would say is a common power in most superhero games. So by letting him save a few points. And since we don't know how many points but for argument sake we allow 3 3-pt csl instead of 3 5-pt. csl, that is a savings of 6 points. I don't see giving a break a deal breaker.  The only issue is that this is clearly a GM prerogative and I would only allow it in certain situations such as the archer but it could open a can of worms which other players would try to take advantage but not have such a tight concept.

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Well actually Ninja Bear I just looked and I hate to tell you this, but you are completely right and I was completely wrong. 5th edition specifically states it can include a whole multi power and when rereading 6th it does state any group the game master considers smaller than a large group.

 

I guess, what has to be asked then, is: does the existence of these trick arrows make the group "bow and arrows" large? It certainly opens up the world of attacks to the player, and thus is what the 5 pt. csl is designed for. On the other hand, it all is limited to what he can shoot with his bow. So it kinda matters what you feel the point difference between CSLs is for in your campaigns. Is it limited (and thus cheaper) because the PC can't use the CSL with the "+3" sword you left in the dungeon, or limited because it's only useful for the normal damage RKAs that bows normally do, and these AVAD and AoE arrows bypass this?

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