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Rules ? 5th ed: END cost for movement with Advantages


wick

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Ok, so the books says that for very 10 Active points in a power you pay 1 END, regardless of using normal or noncombat move. So a character with 30 Active points of movement power + 10 points for X8 would pay on 3 END not 4. Got it!

 

But how does that work with advantages ?   

 

1. Would I calculate the 40 X (1+1/2)= 60 Active points [example using +1/2 power advantage] and then subtract the 10 point addr  for the X8? 60-10= 50 or cost 5 END?

2.or would i sbtract out the adder before doing the advantage calculations?  40-10 adder= 30,  30 X (1+1/2)= 45  Active points, or costs 4.5 or 4 END?

 

Thanks.  The book gave no examples with advantages , so this was not clear.  I do know that the cost of the power is calculated normally and this is for calculated the END cost of a movement power only.

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Those 10 points for x8 NonCombat are still Active Points.  I don't recall any specific mention that adders do not cost END.  As I read it, and it may have been answered this way in one of the FAQs, it means that you'd pay 4 END whether moving at combat or noncombat speeds.

 

So, the much simpler formula to use is 40 * (1 + 1/2) = 60 / 10 = 6 END.  Makes the math easier, and I don't think one or two more END is going to hurt that much.

 

Chris.

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Examples from the various vehicle builds suggest that you do pay for non-combat movement.

 

What advantage are you trying to build? If it is not important to your noncombat movement, I'd suggest turning your movement into a small powerframework, such that the ncm and the advantage do not apply at the same time. Otherwise, even a little bit of an elevated speed score could mean that you can't use your movement for marathon running without maxing out your REC as well.

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"Ok, so the books says that for very 10 Active points in a power you pay 1 END, regardless of using normal or noncombat move. So a character with 30 Active points of movement power + 10 points for X8 would pay on 3 END not 4. Got it!"

 

Nope, you don't quite got it. You just described a 40 Active Point power so it would cost 4 END regardless of whether you were using normal or noncombat movement. Likewise, if your movement power has Advantages those Advantages increase the Active Points and AP is what END cost is based on.

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"Ok, so the books says that for very 10 Active points in a power you pay 1 END, regardless of using normal or noncombat move. So a character with 30 Active points of movement power + 10 points for X8 would pay on 3 END not 4. Got it!"

 

Nope, you don't quite got it. You just described a 40 Active Point power so it would cost 4 END regardless of whether you were using normal or noncombat movement. Likewise, if your movement power has Advantages those Advantages increase the Active Points and AP is what END cost is based on.

That means a endurance efficient combat movement will not be good during non-combat, and vice versa.

 

Especially in 6E many characters have either a Multipower with different movement powers (different types of movement and different focus) or put non-combat movement modes into an existing framework.

 

Edit: Also keep in mind that you pay END for Adders and advantages even if you do not use them.

If you got 30 Points worth of movement + 10 in adders and you only use 1/4 of your movement without using the adder, you pay end for a 10 AP power (40/4) not a 7 AP power (30/4, rounded down).

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The example of a 30 active point movement power with a +10 adder for x 8 noncombatant movement costing only 3 END and not 4 END came directly from the book. It was describing that you do not count the adder for the Noncombatant movement when calculating END cost. IIRC . I am using 5th Ed revised don't have the page number at this time but it should be in the endurance section under movement powers.

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The example of a 30 active point movement power with a +10 adder for x 8 noncombatant movement costing only 3 END and not 4 END came directly from the book. It was describing that you do not count the adder for the Noncombatant movement when calculating END cost. IIRC . I am using 5th Ed revised don't have the page number at this time but it should be in the endurance section under movement powers.

 

I remember asking Steve Long about that particular section in 5e rules as well and he stated that the book entry was wrong (errata) - it should be 4 END. I have looked for the post but I cannot find it due to multiple forum software migrations.

 

I did find the following text from 5er:

 

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One page 103

 

A character does not have to use all of a power’s Adders, unless the GM rules otherwise. For example, if a character has Flight 20”, x16 Noncombat, he can choose to fl y only 20” and not use his extra Noncombat Movement multiples. However, he must still pay END based on the Active Points of the Power used (with Adders).

 

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The example of a 30 active point movement power with a +10 adder for x 8 noncombatant movement costing only 3 END and not 4 END came directly from the book. It was describing that you do not count the adder for the Noncombatant movement when calculating END cost. IIRC . I am using 5th Ed revised don't have the page number at this time but it should be in the endurance section under movement powers.

Not sure what page you're looking at. 5ER 122 has the example with Golden Eagle. He has Flight 20" and adds x8 non-combat multiplier for a total of 40+10=50 points. It then states, "His Flight costs 5 END, regardless of whether he uses Combat or Noncombat Movement."

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Not sure what page you're looking at. 5ER 122 has the example with Golden Eagle. He has Flight 20" and adds x8 non-combat multiplier for a total of 40+10=50 points. It then states, "His Flight costs 5 END, regardless of whether he uses Combat or Noncombat Movement."

 

No it is not that example, which mentions really nothing about his END costs. 

 

I am talking about pg 123 in the  text Left Column first paragaph, last coule of sentences are the most pertinent.  Under the Endurance section.

 

The in text example was 15" (30 Active points) of flight with X8 noncom move (+10 Adder for a total of 40 active points) only spends 3 END rather 4 END becuase you don't count the adder into the Active cost when calculating END cost.   Are we on the same sheet of music now?

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In Hero System 5E Revised the section you talk about clearly says it costs 4 END. Are you using revised or the original 5E?

 

There are 2 Golden Eagle examples on page 122, the one under "Combat and Noncombat Movement" does specifically address END cost and contradicts your example from 123 (which isn't in my book).

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Hero System 5Er, page 123, paragraph 1:

 

"A character with Flight 15" (30 Active Points) and a X8 Noncombat Movement multiple (total of Flight 120") only spends 4 END per Phase."

 

EDIT: Plus you quoted and responded to Scott but completely ignored Hyper-Man who gave you a pretty definitive answer.

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No it is not that example, which mentions really nothing about his END costs. 

 

My quote is straight from the text, and very specifically mentions the END cost.

 

I am talking about pg 123 in the  text Left Column first paragaph, last coule of sentences are the most pertinent.  Under the Endurance section.

 

The in text example was 15" (30 Active points) of flight with X8 noncom move (+10 Adder for a total of 40 active points) only spends 3 END rather 4 END becuase you don't count the adder into the Active cost when calculating END cost.   Are we on the same sheet of music now?

I see that example as well. I agree with Hyper-Man as to the errata status. (And seemingly confirmed by bibywolfe's post.)

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Hero System 5Er, page 123, paragraph 1:

 

"A character with Flight 15" (30 Active Points) and a X8 Noncombat Movement multiple (total of Flight 120") only spends 4 END per Phase."

 

EDIT: Plus you quoted and responded to Scott but completely ignored Hyper-Man who gave you a pretty definitive answer.

My "First printing October 2004" copy of 5ER shows the cost as 3 END. If yours shows the 4, what printing is it?

 

And, to be fair to the OP, in my copy, the full text seems to contradict what we're saying by the way it is written:

 

If a character moves at Noncombat velocities, the END cost equals the END he uses to move at Combat velocities -- a character with Flight 15" (30 Active Points) and a x8 Noncombat Movement multiple (total of Flight 120") only spends 3 END per Phase.

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I had forgot that Dan had recently reinstated the forum search feature.

 

Here's the original post - http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/27491-re-questions-about-movement-and-end-costs/

 

 

Posted 25 March 2005 - 02:50 PM

Hi Steve,

The previous poster raised a serious question. I read all the related 5ER pages that you mentioned and I can't figure out which example has precedence. Unless I am completely missing some key piece of information or haven't had enough caffeine, one of the examples is giving the incorrect END cost but I can't figure out which one.

Given that the following 15"/x8NCM/3 END example build is also used on page 364:

Quote

On p123, under Endurance, it's noted that a character with 15" of Flight and a x8 NCM would pay 3 END per phase.


  • Are these examples actually wrong? Should the character be paying 4 End per phase?<>
  • <>Would a more specific example with included active points help? If I have a character with Flight 20" [40 active] with a x32 Non-Combat Multiple [+20 active for a total of 60 active] Does it cost 4 or 6 End per phase to use at combat or non-combat speeds?
Thanks in advance,

HM

 

 

 

Steve Long replied

 

Posted 25 March 2005 - 03:59 PM

Re: Questions about Movement and END costs It's just an errata. It should be 4 END per Phase due to the Active Point cost of 40.

 

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Ok so my book was wrong you should take the complete active points and divide by 10. So 4 END cost for the example I gave. Apologies and thanks to all the replies. I should have checked errata. I thought I was taking crazy pills when everyone was disagreeing with a premise that seemed clearly written to me. I am glad that I turned out to be incorrect since it is simpler.

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