Pushing in Heroic Campaigns

[Joe Walsh]

What's the correct interpretation of the pushing rules in the various editions of Hero System?

 

I've always interpreted the rule to mean that the player can choose to push up to 5 CP with a successful EGO roll, getting an additional +1 CP per point by which the roll succeeds. But the way it's phrased in Champions Complete has me doubting myself.

 

Here's the rule in 4e, which is where I got my idea of how pushing works in heroic campaigns, way back when:

 

A character in a heroic campaign may push his STR up to 5 points with a successful EGO Roll. Also, the character may Push 1 point more than 5 for every 1 point the EGO roll is made by.

 

Here's the rule in 5e. It's written differently, but it seems likely to mean the same thing as in 4e:

 

A character in a Heroic campaign may push his STR or Powers up to 5 Character Points with a successful EGO Roll, +1 Character Point for every 1 point by which he makes the EGO Roll.

"I'll give you 5 apples, plus one apple for each penny you give me" would never mean I'd get 2 apples for handing over 2 pennies; I'd get 7 apples. So it seems the same as the 4e rule, just reworded.

 

The rule in 6e uses the phrasing from 5e:

 

A character in a Heroic campaign may push his STR or abilities up to 5 Character Points with a successful EGO Roll, +1 Character Point for every 1 point by which he makes the EGO Roll.

 

In Champions Complete, the language has changed again. We no longer have the initial 5 CPs. Now it seems to be saying that you get a 0 point push for an EGO roll that succeeds exactly, 1 CP for succeeding by 1, 2 CP for succeeding by 2, etc., up to a 5 CP push for succeeding by 5:

 

Pushing in Heroic campaigns requires an EGO Roll (though the GM might forego this in particularly crucial situations, or grant a bonus to the roll). The character gains 1 CP to the ability per 1 point he makes the roll by, to a maximum of +5 CP.

 

I prefer the 4e rule, so I'm wondering if the intent in 5e/6e was to change that rule, as well as what the intent in Champions Complete was.

[JasonPacker]

FWIW, the language from Champions Complete is (perhaps unsurprisingly) copied verbatim into Fantasy Hero Complete.

[Joe Walsh]

FWIW, the language from Champions Complete is (perhaps unsurprisingly) copied verbatim into Fantasy Hero Complete.

 

Ah, good to know! I'd wondered about that. Thanks!

[Scott Baker]

I prefer the 4e rule, so I'm wondering if the intent in 5e/6e was to change that rule, as well as what the intent in Champions Complete was.

If you want to know the intent in 6E, you can ask Steve your question around that specific edition. (I saw your original post over in the 6E rules forum.) He doesn't answer 5E questions any more, although since the wording is the same, you can probably figure out what was meant by that version as well.

 

I can actually read the 5E/6E version either way. The CC/FHC are explicitly one direction, as was the 4E version. Since I don't play Heroic level, it hadn't really caught my eye before. (Although this would certainly be good to know if I can ever get people interested in a Pulp game.)

[Hyper-Man]

Interesting question. 

It really bums me that I had never noticed this subtle change between 4th and later editions before.

 

GM Joe HAS already asked the question in the rules forum and Steve has already replied.

 

From:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/90958-pushing-in-heroic-campaigns/?p=2420015

 

Steve Long Posted Today, 09:38 AM

Since I neither wrote, edited, reviewed, nor approved Champions Complete, I'm not in a position to comment on its rules, or the intent of its author (though Derek posts on the boards frequently and can certainly respond to you on the Discussion board if he sees this). However, the official rule in 6E2 is this:

 

 

 

A character in a Heroic campaign may push his STR or abilities up to 5 Character Points with a successful EGO Roll, +1 Character Point for every 1 point by which he makes the EGO Roll.

 

So I think the CC rule is consistent with the official rules; it's just stated a little differently.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Derek was pretty clear that, outside of very specific cases (Classes of Mind, I think) there was no intent to change any rules from 6e to CC. 

 

I don't have CC in front of me - it would be ideal to see the Supers rule which precedes the Heroic phrasing for context. 

 

Unrelated to the specific issue, am I the only one who finds it problematic that the rules question board does not acknowledge the currently published version of the rules as "the official rules"?

[Ndreare]

I have always treated it as supers can push up to +10at will and heroic characters get 5+ margin of success. I think knowing the official ruling will not change how we play.

 

But it is surprising what you miss considering 3 editions.

[Hyper-Man]

I just look at it as one more good reason to purchase more EGO for my characters.

[Hyper-Man]

...

Unrelated to the specific issue, am I the only one who finds it problematic that the rules question board does not acknowledge the currently published version of the rules as "the official rules"?

 

Yeah.

[Ndreare]

Yes, I see no problem here.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Scott Baker]

Here's a breakdown across versions.

 

1E - push by up to 10 pts. "to perform a heroic action" (such as the wall falling down on a helpless old lady in the example).

 

2E - same as 1E

 

3E - occassionally to perform a heroic action. Push by up to 10 points. They also introduce the option to require an EGO roll, "perhaps a maximum of 5 Power Points of Push for every 1 point the EGO Roll is made by." (I'm pretty sure the intent wasn't to let you push to such high limits--I made my roll by 5 and push for 25 points!--but that's what they wrote.)

 

4E - still says occasionally, but breaks out Heroic (push up to 5 pts, plus an additional +1 for every point an EGO roll is made by), and superheroic (up to 10 pts and no EGO roll)

 

5E - "Pushing can only be used for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions." Heroic gets 5 pts with a successful EGO roll, +1 for every 1 pt the roll is made by" (note that the text no longer states "an additional +1"). Superheroic is still 10 pts. with no EGO roll.

 

5ER - "...characters can only use Pushing for crucial, heroic, or life-saving actions." And the same points as 5E.

 

6E - Same conditions as 5ER. And the same text on points as in 5ER.

 

CC - "...perform a noble, heroic, or life-saving action...." To a maximum of +10 CP. Heroic gets a note that it requires an EGO roll and you get +1 CP per point the roll is made by, to a maximum of +5

 

FHC - "...perform a noble, heroic, or life-saving action...." Requires an EGO roll, and you get +1 CP per point you make the roll by, to a max of +5. Superheroic fantasy is still 10 pts with no EGO roll. 

[Lucius]

Under the later, restricted rule (which no one seems to have realized changed in the changeover from 4th to 5th) Heroic Pushing seems just about pointless.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Luck that Costs END. Probably planning to push its Luck.

[JasonPacker]

Under the later, restricted rule (which no one seems to have realized changed in the changeover from 4th to 5th) Heroic Pushing seems just about pointless.

 

I expect it matters what you're pushing. A chance to boost your lifting capacity to twice what it currently is on a good Ego roll seems like a reasonably useful thing.

[Greywind]

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah, Situational modifiers are now necessary for it to be useful.  Which isn't a bad thing if going for more realism. 

 

I'm still just stunned that nobody noticed this change to the heroic rules till now!

[bigdamnhero]

I had always interpreted the 5ed & 6ed rule to mean what CC and FHC say: +1 CP per point you make your EGO Roll by, up to max of 5. The 5ed/6ed wording is just confusing because it keeps the same order as the 4ed rule while in fact reversing the meaning.

 

That said, as a house rule I've always ignored the "max of 5" part anyway. But then, I also require an EGO Roll for superheroic pushing, so what do I know.

 

Unrelated to the specific issue, am I the only one who finds it problematic that the rules question board does not acknowledge the currently published version of the rules as "the official rules"?

Do we now need an "Ask Derek & Michael" section too?

[Joe Walsh]

Or they could just ask us to send a self-addressed, stamped envelope along with our questions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have always gone with 5 +1 per point of EGO roll. In some high powered Heroic games, i award +2 per point of EGO roll. I usually dont cap it. I dont require that the situation be life threatening to make the attempt, but I do give bonuses and penalties based on the need. If the need is great, i might award up to +5. If there is no need whatsoever, i might give out a -10 penalty.