Presence Attack Abuse

[Tasha]

Over on Facebook, we were talking to Sean Patrick Fannon about his houserules. It came up that he has had issues with players Abusing Presence attacks. I was wondering if others have seen this issue, and what did you do to fix the issue.

Tasha

[Ndreare]

Tagged to follow, but I have never seen them abused.

 

Makes me curious how often is considered abuse by one game master compared to another.

[IndianaJoe3]

I've never seen Presence Attacks abused. Heck, I hardly see them used at all. I've heard apocryphal tales of characters with ridiculous amounts (100 PRE) causing problems, but that would apply to any power at that level.

[Tasha]

Most characters that I have run/gmed for have 30 or less Pre. Though if someone paid for 60 presence, I wouldn't have an issue with them using it. It would be just like Mind Control at that level. Also with Pre Attacks having diminshing returns, I don't see how it's an issue.

Most of my players don't use them nearly enough. Though I was getting my players used to thinking about them.

[Greywind]

Depending on the who and what, I often have incidental PRE attacks go off and have an impact on the players' adversaries. Mostly because I feel that if someone does something unusual that will make the less battle-hardened go "Wha...?"

The players don't use them often enough.

[Lord Liaden]

It's always bothered me that IMHO none of the Hero System designers have defined Presence Attacks in sufficient detail, particularly what kind of commands or suggestions can be given to the recipients, and how long the effects of them last. That grey area can leave them open to abusive interpretations (again IMHO).

 

In my games I borrowed a lot from the Mind Control Power to define what you can use a Presence Attack for. That includes instituting Breakout Rolls as if the victim was hit with a one-shot Mental Power, but based on either Presence or Ego, whichever is higher.

[Lord Liaden]

I also noticed that under Steve Long we started getting more official villains with Presence attacks of 12d6, 16d6, 20d6, even 24d6. At that level I really think we need more guidelines as to what sort of drooling catatonic wretch would be left in the wake of them.

[bluesguy]

I have highly encouraged my players to use Presence attacks.  I am pretty liberal as a GM in applying the increased dice as found on pg 136 in 6th Edition volume 2.  Presence attacks that are simple instructions tend to work the best - players pick up on that pretty quickly.

 

In my fantasy games they have found that if they can single shot kill (or knockout) an opponent that is a great time for a PRE attack "Surrender or die!" and I will give them an additional 7d6 to their PRE.  Most players in my Heroic campaigns have 15 PRE so that is 10d6 PRE which usually results in a PRE attack of ~35 points which is almost always going to be +20 over NPC combatants PRE.

 

Of course the exact same thing can happen to them.  So it all works out.

[Christopher]

"The GM should modify this roll heavily based on the situation (the Presence Attack Modifiers Table lists some modifiers the GM can apply). Compare the total of the Presence Attack to the defender’s PRE, then check the Presence Attack Table. (See the text below for expanded explanation of the Table entries.) The effects of a Presence Attack last as long as the GM deems appropriate (but see the text below for suggested guidelines)" 6E2 135

I would say PRE-attacks have written "whatever the GM deems acceptable" written over them.

They are slightly less subjective to the GM whim then the power luck (as there are actuall examples with combat effects), but that is about it.

 

There have been tales of the same issue happening with excessive amount of Comeliness in 5E. Right down to "it works like free mind control".

That simply says the GM went overboard in allowing values and/or stuff is possible. He still has the most awesome GM power to counter it: Saying "No".

[WistfulD]

I have highly encouraged my players to use Presence attacks.  I am pretty liberal as a GM in applying the increased dice as found on pg 136 in 6th Edition volume 2.  Presence attacks that are simple instructions tend to work the best - players pick up on that pretty quickly.

 

In my fantasy games they have found that if they can single shot kill (or knockout) an opponent that is a great time for a PRE attack "Surrender or die!" and I will give them an additional 7d6 to their PRE.  Most players in my Heroic campaigns have 15 PRE so that is 10d6 PRE which usually results in a PRE attack of ~35 points which is almost always going to be +20 over NPC combatants PRE.

 

Of course the exact same thing can happen to them.  So it all works out.

 

 

That's where the problem might be. With the modifiers outstripping the base scores by so much, it's likely that no one is immune unless they are specifically built that way (say, an advantage for an unfeeling undead). That means that whomever can manipulate the situation to invoke one of these +7D6 presence attacks is going to sweep up. That can lead to either a cagy (read, "abusive") player using this to win fights they shouldn't win, or the players complain about being "railroaded" by situations they can't build defenses for.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Never had the problem. I wish they used them more.

[bluesguy]

That's where the problem might be. With the modifiers outstripping the base scores by so much, it's likely that no one is immune unless they are specifically built that way (say, an advantage for an unfeeling undead). That means that whomever can manipulate the situation to invoke one of these +7D6 presence attacks is going to sweep up. That can lead to either a cagy (read, "abusive") player using this to win fights they shouldn't win, or the players complain about being "railroaded" by situations they can't build defenses for.

 

A couple of things that prevent this from happening - at least in my games:

1. You have to do something pretty awesome.  Characters are in a battle and one of them cuts down an opponent with a single stroke.
2. Player has to decide to use that moment for a presence attack and come up with something intelligent/useful to say at that point in time
3. Player rolls average and therefore gets +20 on the opponents PRE.  What is the result "Target is awed. He will not act for 1 Full Phase, is at ½ DCV, and possibly will do as the attacker commands."  So if this is a big fight then only opponents who can see/hear what happened will be affected.

So here is what I am thinking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_TFoGhqUU - which looks like a really well rolled PRE attack to me (+20 or +30 vs Sir Uryens' PRE)...

[Christopher]

A couple of things that prevent this from happening - at least in my games:

1. You have to do something pretty awesome.  Characters are in a battle and one of them cuts down an opponent with a single stroke.
2. Player has to decide to use that moment for a presence attack and come up with something intelligent/useful to say at that point in time
3. Player rolls average and therefore gets +20 on the opponents PRE.  What is the result "Target is awed. He will not act for 1 Full Phase, is at ½ DCV, and possibly will do as the attacker commands."  So if this is a big fight then only opponents who can see/hear what happened will be affected.

So here is what I am thinking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC_TFoGhqUU - which looks like a really well rolled PRE attack to me (+20 or +30 vs Sir Uryens' PRE)...

If I remeber right some interpretations of excalibur (inlcuding that one) have a rule that "you cannot cut down a righteous man" with it. Forcing past that rule is what broke it against the black knight.

You can see how he is trying to cut Arthur down with the sword, but failing. So he just verified beyond a doubt that: 1) This is indeed excalibur, 2) Arthur is indeed righteous and 3) Arthur is thus be worthy to be the king of legend. Doubting the first two parts were exaclty the reasons he attacked in the first place.

 

Arthur just saw a way to end this fight, get a new ally and solve the whole knight/king thing using one action with his magic sword. So there was a lot more at work then a mere presense attack.

[megaplayboy]

"Abuse" to me, is probably either using them for a perceived "unfair" combat advantage, or using them as a de facto Mind Control, and/or using them a little too frequently for the GM's taste.  Plot impediment?  My trusty PRE attack will get past that.  DNPC won't go on a date with me?  PRE attack.  Authority figure won't back down?  Massive PRE attack.  Etc. 

I do think the PRE attack guidelines in 6th edition rules are the best so far, and if you can track down a copy of Horror Hero, that is also an excellent source for handling PRE attacks in a more nuanced fashion.  Generally with PRE-boosting abilities, I would suggest getting a narrower definition of the specific effect the boost goes towards--Awe, Attraction, Admiration, Fear, Inspiration, etc. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that the structure and diminishing results of presence attacks (plus their volitile nature given the GM's judgment on dice by situation) makes it hard to abuse.  Presence drain plus a presence attack can be pretty debilitating, but its still limited in its maximum effect since you can't get them to negative numbers.  I think if there's been problems with it in a campaign, that's an issue of the GM not running it very carefully.

[Armitage]

I had a player create (but never play) a character who could turn into a griffin with a fear-inducing roar/screech that I think totaled about 12d6. Against an average person, that would typically make them faint or run away with an average roll.

 

This player had a tendency to try to create characters whose main power could one-shot a significant percentage of opponents, like the time-manipulator with a Radius Selective Target SPD Suppress or the shrinking leaping brick whose STR + Velocity damage could turn 4e Mechanon to confetti.

[zslane]

That's why most campaigns go the trouble to define and enforce active point limits on attacks and defenses.

 

It has already been mentioned how the diminishing returns aspect of Presence Attacks is one of its self-limiting factors that helps keep it from being abused. But beyond the raw mechanics, there are also campaign consequences to anything that gets "abused". For example, when it becomes common knowledge that Pride Lion's roar tends to take thugs out on the opening Phase 12 of every combat, smart master villains are going to start handing out noise-cancelling headgear to all their agents.

 

I find that the most effective remedy against abusive rules exploits is in-game campaign consequences. Rather than trying to plug every loophole in the rules, it is more fun to bring the weight of the game world down upon the character (in a plausible fashion, mind you).

[Doc Democracy]

the absolute most effective remedy against in game abuse is to employ the same effects against the players that they employ in character.

 

I started that rule with poisoned weapons in D&D.  "if you guys think it is cool to use it, expect everyone else to have a similar perspective".  Pretty quickly the only people that used poison were the truly evil NPCs.  :-)

[Lucius]

 

I can't see how to abuse a PRE attack.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And the palindromedary says I'm an accomplished munchkin

[worldshaking00]

My group tends to follow the motto: what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We try to not create powers or do overly nasty things (like SPD drain, n-ray vision combined with Mental powers, and the like) because if we pull that line of stuff, then the GM will play the arms race card and do it back. It is a form of respect, which goes both ways most of the time.

 

PRE attack abuse is one such avenue. Sure, my group uses them, and quite often. They are quite handy when attacking a mob of agents or to get the police bolstered versus the big baddie.

 

It gets really ugly when PRE scores get over 40, and the PRE attacker continually perma-locks their (captive) audience by removing their ability to act. My group's characters' average PRE is about 20-25. We don't like to have every "hero" or "villain" be a charismatic demigod. Only the really inspiring ones get higher. Our group follows our GM's Rule of X, which can be a drag at times but its there for everyone's enjoyment, I guess. We sometimes purchase a level or two of Positive Rep and/or Striking Appearance. Do the math to figure how your campaign mileage would handle your own group's numbers.

 

Our GM included PRE on the list of defensive characteristics for Adjustment powers, precisely because your deeds/atmosphere/circumstance should play a more influential role in building a good PRE attack. An Aid (or Drain) has a very significant effect on the characteristic without such, and you're effectively neutered if your PRE drops too low, heroically speaking.

 

It really takes the wind out of your sails when some galactic cheese weasel with a 70 PRE shouts "Flee!" and you find yourself PRE attacked so hard your unborn grandchildren lose their next phase.

[NuSoardGraphite]

This is a non issue. The GM should have complete control over what modifiers they give out. And while the GM should always strive to be fair, they should also strive for reasonableness/balance.

[megaplayboy]

Well, for a 10 PRE target, the "splits" for levels of PRE/+10/+20/+30/+40 are at 3/6/9/12/15 dice respectively, on an average roll.  For a 15 PRE target, the splits are closer to 4/7/10/13/16 dice.  For a 20 PRE target: 6/9/12/15/18 dice.  25, add about +1d6.  A 20d6 PRE attack will get a +40 level result against a 30 PRE on an average roll, and +30 against a 40 PRE, +20 against a 50 PRE and +10 against a 60 PRE(Dr. Destroyer loses a half phase!).  At a glance, it looks like the potential for abuse starts at the upper end of what's remotely "human"(i.e., 30 to 50 PRE, with or without rep or SA or other bonuses). 

[NuSoardGraphite]

If I remeber right some interpretations of excalibur (inlcuding that one) have a rule that "you cannot cut down a righteous man" with it. Forcing past that rule is what broke it against the black knight.

You can see how he is trying to cut Arthur down with the sword, but failing. So he just verified beyond a doubt that: 1) This is indeed excalibur, 2) Arthur is indeed righteous and 3) Arthur is thus be worthy to be the king of legend. Doubting the first two parts were exaclty the reasons he attacked in the first place.

 

Arthur just saw a way to end this fight, get a new ally and solve the whole knight/king thing using one action with his magic sword. So there was a lot more at work then a mere presense attack.

Excalibur prevented him from cutting Arthur down. The PRE attack convinced him to swear loyalty.

 

To break it down further:

 

Lets say Arthur has a PRE of 15 at this juncture. He has potential, but he is not yet the king of legend, or at least no recognized as such. So base 3d6. He is performing well in his first battle and his enemies are impressed. +1d6. When he hands Uriens Excalibur, he performs a soliloquy and utilizes his Persuasion skill. +2d6 for a total so far of 6d6. The GM determines that the effects of Excalibur add +4d6 to the PRE attack for a grand total of 10d6! If Uriens has a PRE of 15 (about average for a Knight and a commander of men in battle) the average roll would generate +20 effect. A good roll could hit +30 or even +40.

[Christopher R Taylor]

At a glance, it looks like the potential for abuse starts at the upper end of what's remotely "human"(i.e., 30 to 50 PRE, with or without rep or SA or other bonuses). 

 

True, but its true for most other stats.  I mean, if your character has 7 speed, they become abusively overwhelming.   50 Strength is very powerful even beyond the 10d6 punch. If they have that many points dumped into stun, they become unstoppable.  Its a matter of how many points you put into something giving you more power, really.

[bigdamnhero]

I've never had any problems with abuse in any home campaign I've run or played in; players tend to use them appropriately and they make for some great Star Power moments. And they're a great way to keep Endless Mook Smackdowns from going on too long by creating a mechanism to give the mooks an opportunity to surrender.

 

I do remember running one convention game where a couple players went a little overboard; once they learned it was a free action, they figured why not do one every Phase? Really slowed things down. I had to issue a course correction - "They're more effective when used sparingly, guys" - and we got things back under control. That's the closest to abuse I can think of.

 

That's where the problem might be. With the modifiers outstripping the base scores by so much...

That's always been my problem with PRE Attacks, in that situational modifiers tend to matter so much more than the character's original PRE. That, and the fact that the target character doesn't get any kind of roll to resist. I've toyed with the idea of rebuilding PRE Attacks as an opposed characteristic roll, with situation modifiers adding/subtracting to the roll, but I've never really gotten serious about it.