DMR vs. Sniper Rifles

[acide_bob]

SO I'm building this military based game.

 

And one of my biggest concern so far is to make each weapon seems more unique and the Rifles gives me trouble.

Assuming taht I do know how to build weapon in the Hero System. (Real weapon, charg, OAF, no knockback, require hands, etc)

I'm looking for a way to make a difference between the DMRs and Sniper Rifles.

 

I know the effective range is there so it's already in. 

My main problem is with shooting rate. 

Most Long range Rifle will have a magazine for the bullets but still be single shot. While DMR tend to be semi-auto. And I don't know how to build that in the Hero System.

My first thought was to make the single-shot a full phase action... which I think is great but open way too much possibility for a player to go full multi-attack build on a sniper rigle and empty a amg in one full phase.

 

My second idea was to put 1/2 phase to ready weapon to shoot between each shot. So one full phase to shoot and rearm... but then I do know that experienced marksman can pull more than 1 bullet per second.... and I don't want the marskman of the team to go full SPD build jsut for shooting.

 

So any suggestion?

Would creating a special reload skill work? like skill start at 8 + dex/3 and everytime he succeeds he can pull another shot for his phase with incremental -2 on the skill roll for each shot?

Just a special +xSPD (Only for shooting sniper rifles)?

 

Would like a feedback on those and any suggestions is welcomed of course.

[Nolgroth]

My initial thought is to buy Autofire at the +1/4 Advantage for the DM and not for the sniper.  By contrast, buy more extra Ranged PSLs and maybe OCV levels for the Sniper rifle with a requirement that the rifle be Set & Braced to gain the extra benefit. So in effect, to gain the extra oomph that the sniper rifle brings to the battlefield, you have to actually use it like a sniper rifle.

 

Examples:

 

M-14 Designated Marksman Battle Rifle  +2 Ranged PSL, +2 OCV, Autofire 2 rounds (+1/4)

 

M-24 Sniper Rifle, Increased Range, +4 Ranged PSL (requires Set & Brace), +4 OCV (requires Set & Brace)

 

You would, of course, need to decide how much damage each of these weapons does and add in all the other things like Str Minimum, Focus and all that. I was just giving an abbreviated version.

[bubba smith]

have you tried the ultimate shooter thread  ?

[acide_bob]

the ultimate shooter thread just talk about how to build a gunner character... not sure i see the link with what I'm trying to do...

 

Also I thought about going AF2 or 3 for DMRs.... but then, even I wonder why wouldn't all the semi-automatic pistols get AF 2 or 3 also....

[Nolgroth]

Just because something is "canon" does not mean it fits your game. Personally, all semi-autos in my games would be built with AF 2. Just me and my constant need to tinker with something until it is "right."

[Christopher]

Going by the wikipedia Article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_marksman_rifle

Sniper Rifles are highly dedicated to that role. You need more time to set up, have better sights and the like. Many are still bolt action to this day. You might get a semi-automatic one, but that is it for RoF. They get specialised ammunition, often unusual callibers.

A sniper team usually involves a dedicated spotter and lot's of training. Wind and even the earth rotation can have a tremendous effect on the ranges sniper rifles are used.

You really don't want to be caught on MBR or DMR range with one.

 

In turn you can make any Assault Rilfe with semi-auto fire into a DMR simply by adding a scope to it.

It is designed towards easy use at the front: Fast setup. Low recoil. Low Supply Profile, usually by using the default ammunition of the main battle rifle. In some case the are the MBR with a scope added it. It won't get special ammo developed for it, or avalible at the front.

That also gives DMR higher RoF, at least inlcuding semi-auto and very likely burst and autofire modes. Wich in turn means higher versatility. You can get caught on MBR ranges with it and still fight.

[Armitage]

For a single-shot weapon, you could add the Cannot Be Used With [specific combat maneuver] (-1/4) Limitation and indicate that it can't be used with the Multiple Attack maneuver.  A semi-automatic weapon can be used to squeeze off multiple shots (using Multiple Attack), but the single-shot weapon can only make one shot per Phase.

[Christopher]

For a single-shot weapon, you could add the Cannot Be Used With [specific combat maneuver] (-1/4) Limitation and indicate that it can't be used with the Multiple Attack maneuver.  A semi-automatic weapon can be used to squeeze off multiple shots (using Multiple Attack), but the single-shot weapon can only make one shot per Phase.

Odd. I could have sword there already was a limitation on the guns in 6E2 to simulate "need half phase action to feed in next bullet in adition to magazine".

But actually there is no mentioning of it.

I did notice this part on the Jamming table description "Revolvers and singleshot bolt action weapons will not jam."

 

I searched my PDF's for 6E1, 6E2, HSMA and APG I+II for the term "bolt action", but nothing was found.

Anybody got the Equipment guide on any weapon guidelines?

[Armitage]

I searched my PDF's for 6E1, 6E2, HSMA and APG I+II for the term "bolt action", but nothing was found.

Anybody got the Equipment guide on any weapon guidelines?

 

There's an optional rule in the Equipment Guide for lever-action rifles requiring a Half-Phase to chamber each round.

5e Dark Champions has optional rules for slow firearms that may be what you're remembering: Half Phase to cock a single-action handgun, pump a pump-action shotgun, or chamber a round in a bolt-action rifle.

[Christopher]

There's an optional rule in the Equipment Guide for lever-action rifles requiring a Half-Phase to chamber each round.

5e Dark Champions has optional rules for slow firearms that may be what you're remembering: Half Phase to cock a single-action handgun, pump a pump-action shotgun, or chamber a round in a bolt-action rifle.

Just to be on the save side, I asked Mr. Long about it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91380-bolt-actionpump-action-weapons/

 

Edit: And the answer is - just handle them like Lever Action, minus stuff like Rifle Spin and Fanned Attack.

[procyon]

Just to be on the save side, I asked Mr. Long about it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91380-bolt-actionpump-action-weapons/

 

Edit: And the answer is - just handle them like Lever Action, minus stuff like Rifle Spin and Fanned Attack.

To me that wouldn't feel very (ok, forgive me...), real.

That makes a lever action gun, or pump action - no faster than a bow & arrow.

They are much faster.

 

I have gone the route of letting pump/lever guns/double action be AF2 and SA weapons be AF3. This lets me as GM (ok, I'm still 4e) use the supression fire rules for the gangsters who just unload huge amounts of ammo in a short amount of time. Even the SPD 2 mook can empty his Glock in no time at all treated this way.

Older single action revolvers and bolt actions rifles don't need reload time (like a bow), but still feel slow and can't use 'suppression' to hose down an area (which a person with a semi auto weapon can actually do fairly well).

 

But that is just me.

[Christopher]

To me that wouldn't feel very (ok, forgive me...), real.

That makes a lever action gun, or pump action - no faster than a bow & arrow.

They are much faster.

How are they faster? Or rather how much of that time measuremeant is for Aiming the shoot, how much for the re-chambering?

How much training does the firer have? What is the distance to the target? With or without being braced?

 

Don't look a shoots per minute. Theoretically you can fire a lever action rifle twice per second. Except you won't actually hit anything with that, because you don't aim or even hold the rilfe stable.

The MG 42 has a ROF of 1200 Rounds/Minute. 20 per second.

But aside from supressive fire (wich is done with totally different rules then aimed attacks*), you will hardly even hold the trigger for 1 whole second.

 

 

*Usually some form of AoE, Non-Selective

[procyon]

I put in quite a bit of time shooting.  Maybe a lot.

The amount of time spent aiming is going to be nearly the same, whether you are shooting a rifle or bow.

But the amount of time spent readying the shot will be vastly less with the rifle.

 

Getting an arrow out of the quiver, nocked on the string, and drawn is nowhere as quick as working the bolt on a bolt action rifle.

A lever action rifle or single action pistol is even faster.  Pumps & double action handguns are nearly as fast as an autoloader.

 

I would be more than happy to pit any of the 10-14 y/o kids that I teach Junior trapshooting to against an experienced archer to see who can get the most shots into a target in 5 seconds.

 

I would be very interested to see any set of shooters, of equal training, where the archer can fire faster than a repeating firearm.

There are archers who can shoot an arrow a second or better.  They are highly trained.

Jerry Miculek can fire a double action revolver as fast as an M60 GPMG...

 

 

And on shooting twice in a second...

I just shot doubles with the kids at the trap range yesterday with my old Winchester Model 12 pump shotgun.

I can (about 80% of the time) break a pair or 4" targets moving different directions at 45 mph at a range of 40 (ish) yards in less than 1 second from the time they clear the trap.

The 16 y/o who was up with me can do that same feat about 70% of the time.

[Christopher]

I put in quite a bit of time shooting.  Maybe a lot.

The amount of time spent aiming is going to be nearly the same, whether you are shooting a rifle or bow.

But the amount of time spent readying the shot will be vastly less with the rifle.

 

Getting an arrow out of the quiver, nocked on the string, and drawn is nowhere as quick as working the bolt on a bolt action rifle.

A lever action rifle or single action pistol is even faster.  Pumps & double action handguns are nearly as fast as an autoloader.

 

I would be more than happy to pit any of the 10-14 y/o kids that I teach Junior trapshooting to against an experienced archer to see who can get the most shots into a target in 5 seconds.

 

I would be very interested to see any set of shooters, of equal training, where the archer can fire faster than a repeating firearm.

There are archers who can shoot an arrow a second or better.  They are highly trained.

Jerry Miculek can fire a double action revolver as fast as an M60 GPMG...

 

 

And on shooting twice in a second...

I just shot doubles with the kids at the trap range yesterday with my old Winchester Model 12 pump shotgun.

I can (about 80% of the time) break a pair or 4" targets moving different directions at 45 mph at a range of 40 (ish) yards in less than 1 second from the time they clear the trap.

The 16 y/o who was up with me can do that same feat about 70% of the time.

That is shooting on a shooting range.

Hero deals with shooting in a life and death situation. How much experience with life and death situations in wich a firearm was usefull do you have?

The reality of warfare for bow was that you do not use shoulder quivers for example. And the archer could just take a handfull of arrows out, shooting them one at a time...

 

Actually that is not even the question:

If you WANT the bow to be that much slower you could easily rule that it has a "1 shoot" magazine, so each new arrow is actually the "put in new magazine" action, rather then the "cock weapon again" action.

If you don't want the pump action to suffer anything, just declare it 2 handed but otherwise working like a semi-automatic weapon.

No rules (ever) has been able to accomodate every intention of every gamer or gm using that game system.

[Old Man]

At range, I don't think the action is the issue so much as the aiming.  Typically I simulate scope usage as a ranged OCV bonus that requires set and braced and multiple phases (at least at first) to get the full bonus.  The difference between the DMR and the sniper rifle is that the latter, having a much lower MOA, can get a larger bonus when scoped in.  Thus at ludicrous range you're better off with the sniper rifle, while at ranges inside 250 yards you'd probably be better off with the semiautomatic DMR and its higher ROF.

[Vondy]

How are they faster?

 

Q: How are firearms faster than bows?

 

A: Simple biomechanics.

 

Q: How much faster are firearms than bows?

 

A: Bob Munden Faster.

 

 

• His fastest draw and Walk and Draw Level Event: Fastest Time Ever Recorded: .15 hundredths of one second – Arcadia, CA 06/04/1972.
• Standing Reaction Balloon Event: Fastest Time Ever Recorded: .16 hundredths of one second – Norwalk, CA 01/21/1973. Total of Five Separate Shots, Standing Reaction Balloons: 1 and .06 hundredths of one second – Arizona State Championships, 1966.
• Self-Start: Fastest Time: .0175 hundredths of one second – Guinness Book of World Records Museum, New York, 1976. This time is less than one half, of one half, of one tenth, of one second. Bob has been recognized by the Guinness Book as: “Fastest Gun” “Quickest Draw” and “The Fastest Man With A Gun Ever Alive.” Click here for Oddly Enough listing.
• Using live ammunition, Bob holds the record for hitting a 2′ x 4′ steel, rectangle target 21′ away in .21 hundredths of one second.

Note: All records require the shooter to HIT the target.

 

This hasn't been a question since the advent of modern firearms.

 

[Vondy]

Of course, you don't need a naked advantage to model speed shooting.

 

You could just use CSLs with the Rapid Fire Maneuver.

 

+4 will give you a triple-tap with no pens.

 

Add +4 with Hit Location Mods and call a "high shot."

 

You'll at least get them all center mass, and have reasonable odds of putting one in their head.

[procyon]

That is shooting on a shooting range.

Hero deals with shooting in a life and death situation. How much experience with life and death situations in wich a firearm was usefull do you have?

 

The fact you would even ask that question tells me you have never been in combat.  I will ignore the fact that is profoundly inappropriate.

 

To much.

9 years, 6 months - US Army.

To include deployments to:

DS/DS

Somalia

Yugo

 

 

As an experiment on the 'aimed' shooting, I had my 14 y/o take out the Marlin 1894CB .38/.357 LA.  It holds 15 rds of .38.  I set up 15 clay targets (about 4") at 10 yards with 1 foot between targets.  I wouldn't say he has what I would look at as a RL equivalent of CSL's.

He broke all 15 from a standing postion in 18 seconds from the beep on the timer.

With his pump 20 gauge, he smashed 6 targets at that range at 3.9 seconds after the start beep.

 

If you don't feel that a LA deserves AF2, that is fine.  For a normal SPD 2 mook, that is four aimed shots in 12 seconds.  Which is painfully easy to do and far slower than my 14 y/o managed.  Now, firing 2 shots a second, aimed, in a sustained manner would be beyond his ability.  But that would be 'suppressive fire' where all he would be doing is dumping rounds down a hallway or at a window - which he could manage.

 

So if you feel that 4 aimed shots from a LA in 12 seconds is inappropriate for a mook - that is fine.

Or that they could just hip shoot it down a hallway at 2 rounds a second - ok.

For me, those numbers feel a bit more realistic.

[Christopher]

The fact you would even ask that question tells me you have never been in combat.  I will ignore the fact that is profoundly inappropriate.

Damn, I gave you something to distract from the relevant points there, didn't I?

 

So let's jsut repeat it:

Actually that is not even the question:

If you WANT the bow to be that much slower you could easily rule that it has a "1 shoot" magazine, so each new arrow is actually the "put in new magazine" action, rather then the "cock weapon again" action.

If you don't want the pump action to suffer anything, just declare it 2 handed but otherwise working like a semi-automatic weapon.

No rules (ever) has been able to accomodate every intention of every gamer or gm using that game system.

[procyon]

And honestly, when I have had to shoot in combat - it went FAR faster than what would be possible in Hero.

FA was almost never used, other than support weapons. 

I provided lots of 'suppressing fire' using SA.  And dumping a 30 rd mag into a window 50 yards away to keep folks away from it - all happened in less than 5 or 6 seconds.  Then the next guy would proceed to do the same while I was reloading.  Neither of us was missing the window.

And putting rounds on a target didn't take long either.  You don't just shoot once every three or four or six seconds.  The footage I have seen of my unit shows that most times the first empty hasn't hit the ground yet as the shooter is putting rounds 3 or 4 into the target.  That all happens in, maybe, a second.

 

It goes VERY fast.

So a mook with an AK or M16 and SPD 2 - shooting two bullets in 12 seconds - is not realistic.

Treating SA's as AF3 allowing 6 aimed shots for a proficient (WF, but not highly trained) is still very slow...

 

And the OP was about the fact that the rate of fire between a sniper weapon and DMR didn't seem right - that the bolt action was firing just as fast as a semi auto.

 

So my post saying that if you want to give the SA a different feel, bump up the rate of fire - is aimed at the original question and how our group has addressed it.  Instead of slowing the bolt rifle down so that a bow & arrow is now faster to shoot.

RL gunfights leaves enormous piles of empties behind.

Hero, RAW, expends the same number of rounds for a bolt action as a semi auto as a bow & arrow.

Which for my group, fails the giggle test.