Newbie wondering about CSL and Martial Arts cost.

[Tholomyes]

Newbie Here, but I have a couple questions with regards to combat skill levels and Martial Arts:

 

With combat skill levels, I don't understand why they are so expensive, when I could feasibly get a greater effect from something such as:

 

Enhanced Characteristics (+1 OCV; -1/4: Useable only with HTH combat) plus Enhanced Characteristics (+1 DCV), for 9 points, compared to a HTH only CSL, which is only 1 point cheaper per CSL, and requires you to split up CSLs between OCV and DCV, and make the whatever DCV bonus you'd get only apply to HTH attacks against you.

 

The 2-point one makes sense, as it could be argued to be roughly identical to Enhanced Characteristics (+1 OCV; -1: Useable only on [specified attack]), and the 3 point one sort of makes sense, too, but once you get to the 5+ points rank, it begins to seem strange why the costs are so high for what seems like less benefit. I understand there's the ability to use it to increase damage, but the return on that seems so low that it seems to not be worth it. And even if it is a worthwhile, it seems a multipower might just be more effective at it. As someone with very little familiarity with the system, I was able to parse out this which seems better than the normal CSLs at cheaper cost:

 

Combat Skill level Multipower (5 active points -X Limited: [whatever limitation] on Multipower all slots)

1v Enhanced Characteristics (+1 OCV)

1v Ehnanced Characteristics (+1 DCV)

1v [specified blast attack] (+1d6 Damage)

 

So is there anything I'm missing, or are CSLs just overpriced for what they do?

 

Secondly, I was looking at Martial arts, and I don't understand why they are so cheap. The only main downside I can see is that you have to have 10 active points worth of martial maneuvers to use them, but assuming you can spare 10 points, the benefits you get seem much stronger than their point cost. for example Defensive strike nets you +1 OCV and +3 DCV when you use it, for the same cost as just +1 CV. Martial Strike costs less than a CV or +1 DC of extra damage, but it nets you ~20 active points worth of benefit.

 

Is there anything I'm missing as to why martial arts are so cheap? I assume it's intended to enforce genre conventions and to reduce the cost for skill-monkeys and non-powered heroes like Batman, but there's nothing I see in the rules as to why anyone can't just (or shouldn't just) take martial arts and call it something related to the characters' power set. Examples already exist for Brick Tricks and Gun Fu, so it's not like it can't be used in conjunction with powers.

[Lucius]

 

As for Martial Arts, the rules specifically say things like "just because a character can do a 9d6 Offensive Strike, that doesn't mean they can kicks through a wall or bust the bars of a jail cell barehanded." I have long assumed that there is an "implicit Limitation" on Martial Arts that in theory should balance their effectiveness at low cost.

 

In practice, I suspect that you are often right and that player characters and important non-player characters should probably invest in Martial Arts to stay "competitive" unless the campaign restricts Martial Arts somehow.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Weapon Element: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[Grailknight]

Understanding requires a history lesson.

 

     In the 1st three editions of Champions(not Hero yet and it bears), the cost of Martial Arts was based on the character's STR score. For  50% of the cost of your STR you got 5 basic moves (block, dodge, throw, strike(now Martial Strike) and kick(now Offensive Strike). Strike did 1.5x STR in damage and Kick did 2x. Additional multiples of your STR could be purchased and added .5 to Strike and Kick per multiple.

 

     Hero then added Danger International and Fantasy Hero to the line up. These characters weren't Supers and the games worked with different rules. DI needed an expansion of Martial Arts because it was a large part of the genres it emulated(Bond movies, any Arnold movie, Wuxia, and Agents of SHIELD would all be valid examples plus more). The STR multiple pricing model was too limited in terms of options and too costly points wise when compared to weapons which cost no points in those genres. This led to the basics of Martial Arts as seen now but was limited to non-supers games.

 

     Then came 4th Edition which gave us the unified Hero system. DI style Martial Arts was adapted as the norm and used in all genres. This was great for streamlining the system but Martial Arts became a very effective purchase in Champions genre games because of the greater amounts of available points. Still it only kept pace with Figured STR and DEX as a point saving.

 

     Now we come to 6th Edition which has eliminated Figured  Characteristics. STR, DEX, OCV, and DCV are still good buys but Martial Arts still gives those things at a discount. Not a big problem in Heroic games (weapons still don't cost points) but really noticeable in Champions 6th. 6th also raised the price of Skill levels which made the OCV and DCV  bonuses of Martial Arts even more relevant.

 

     All that said, it merely places a larger burden on the GM to enforce campaign limits and character concept. If the Maximum OCV's and DCV's of the campaign fall within a spread 3 to 5(YMMV) then it should all work out.

[Christopher]

Regarding the cost of CSL:

I consider them to be priced on a Multipower, where 2 10 point CSL equal:

10 point Multipower

2 +2 OCV, flexible slot

2 +2 DCV, flexible slot

1 +1 Generic DC that can be added to any attack

(apply limitatins and price adaptions till you get close to 20 points per 2 CSL)

 

While a single CSL is pretty expensive, buying them in pairs shows thier full potential.

And all the lower CSL are priced starting from them 10 point CSL.

 

 

As far as CV and DC caps are concerned, I simple consider Martial Arts to be a flat:

+2 OCV, +2 DCV, +2 DC (+1 DC for each martial arts DC).

A character with MA or CSL pays less then a character that just bought the CV and STR/attack power to the same level. So he should be weaker across the board. It also prevents MA from breaking the balance.

[Ndreare]

Understanding requires a history lesson.

 

     In the 1st three editions of Champions(not Hero yet and it bears), the cost of Martial Arts was based on the character's STR score. For  50% of the cost of your STR you got 5 basic moves (block, dodge, throw, strike(now Martial Strike) and kick(now Offensive Strike). Strike did 1.5x STR in damage and Kick did 2x. Additional multiples of your STR could be purchased and added .5 to Strike and Kick per multiple.

 

     Hero then added Danger International and Fantasy Hero to the line up. These characters weren't Supers and the games worked with different rules. DI needed an expansion of Martial Arts because it was a large part of the genres it emulated(Bond movies, any Arnold movie, Wuxia, and Agents of SHIELD would all be valid examples plus more). The STR multiple pricing model was too limited in terms of options and too costly points wise when compared to weapons which cost no points in those genres. This led to the basics of Martial Arts as seen now but was limited to non-supers games.

 

     Then came 4th Edition which gave us the unified Hero system. DI style Martial Arts was adapted as the norm and used in all genres. This was great for streamlining the system but Martial Arts became a very effective purchase in Champions genre games because of the greater amounts of available points. Still it only kept pace with Figured STR and DEX as a point saving.

 

     Now we come to 6th Edition which has eliminated Figured  Characteristics. STR, DEX, OCV, and DCV are still good buys but Martial Arts still gives those things at a discount. Not a big problem in Heroic games (weapons still don't cost points) but really noticeable in Champions 6th. 6th also raised the price of Skill levels which made the OCV and DCV  bonuses of Martial Arts even more relevant.

 

     All that said, it merely places a larger burden on the GM to enforce campaign limits and character concept. If the Maximum OCV's and DCV's of the campaign fall within a spread 3 to 5(YMMV) then it should all work out.

 

I was unaware of this, I first started playing in Fourth edition and always felt the martial arts system felt add hoc trying to do something a multi-power should be used for. Funny to find out it really was add hoc.

[bigdamnhero]

Newbie Here

Welcome!

 

Enhanced Characteristics (+1 OCV; -1/4: Useable only with HTH combat) plus Enhanced Characteristics (+1 DCV), for 9 points, compared to a HTH only CSL, which is only 1 point cheaper per CSL, and requires you to split up CSLs between OCV and DCV, and make the whatever DCV bonus you'd get only apply to HTH attacks against you.

You have a fair point that buying up CVs is fairly cheap compared to the more expensive CSLs. Why buy +1 CSL with All Combat when you can buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV for the same 10 points? But CSLs still have some advantages and flexibility that straight CV doesn't:

• Significantly, CSLs can add to damage; OCV can't.
• Drain Characteristics (such as OCV/DCV) is a pretty common power in many games; Draining Skills (such as CSLs) is far less common - as in I don't think I've ever seen one.
• I also frequently see characters start out with 3-5 point CSLs, and then as they get more XP it's easier to buy those up to 8-10 point CSLs.
• If you're using Normal Characteristic Maximums, CVs top out at 8; if you want to go above that, you need CSLs.
• Even if you're not using NCMs, if your character concept is "normal human skill monkey," then having a CV above 8 may not make sense for your character, even if the rules allow it. Therefore CSLs.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but that's what comes to mind.

 

Secondly, I was looking at Martial arts, and I don't understand why they are so cheap. The only main downside I can see is that you have to have 10 active points worth of martial maneuvers to use them, but assuming you can spare 10 points, the benefits you get seem much stronger than their point cost. for example Defensive strike nets you +1 OCV and +3 DCV when you use it, for the same cost as just +1 CV. Martial Strike costs less than a CV or +1 DC of extra damage, but it nets you ~20 active points worth of benefit.

 

Is there anything I'm missing as to why martial arts are so cheap? I assume it's intended to enforce genre conventions and to reduce the cost for skill-monkeys and non-powered heroes like Batman, but there's nothing I see in the rules as to why anyone can't just (or shouldn't just) take martial arts and call it something related to the characters' power set. Examples already exist for Brick Tricks and Gun Fu, so it's not like it can't be used in conjunction with powers.

Again, you're not wrong. For heroic games, the 10-point minimum investment is fairly significant; but that's less of a limiting factor when you have 400 points to throw around. While I wouldn't say it's standard that all superheroes will have some martial arts, in my experience it's fairly common. Personally I like martial arts because I find they encourage players to get a little more creative in combat, beyond just "I hit him again."

[WistfulD]

Really. I consider MAs to be a super good deal that every combat optimized character takes that separates them from the non-combatants who are simply thrust into adventures. Is it super cheap? Yes, but your opponents likely will have them too. It just makes having a gun not quite so superior.