Campaign limits, starting values, and characteristic maxima

[Altair]

So, I'm curious on a couple points.

 

Firstly, the Character Ability Guidelines Table (6E1, p.35) is a really handy thing that frankly, I wish was in Champions Complete. But I was curious on a couple points:

• How closely does that fit with people's experiences of play?
• Do you use those guidelines in your own games? If not, what do you do, and why?
• How does the feel of the game change at different levels? I've read the stuff on the distinction between Heroic and Superheroic, but I'm curious what changes, if any, there are between a game where everybody starts at SPD 5, and one where they start at SPD 2.

Following up on that, I was curious: do people adjust point totals, or give things for free? If I say that the campaign minimum is OCV/DCV 7, and SPD 5, that's 70 points right out of the gate. My questions are thus:

• If everybody has it, do you just change the starting value, so in the above example characters base at 7 CV instead of 3?
• Do you give extra CP to start?
• Is this assumed to be part of the starting point value?

Just curious.

[Hyper-Man]

I didn't use those exact numbers when creating my rookie versions of the Justice League (for both 5e and 6e, see links in my SIG below).

 

I used SPD 4 across the board except for Flash with a 6 SPD.  The DC maximums of some of the builds can easily exceed 15DC but are typically mitigated by extreme Codes of Conduct of when "full power" can be unleashed (think Superman vs. Darkseid & his World of Cardboard speech).

 

Every GM is going to put their own spin on those values for a variety of reasons.

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah, like Hyper-Man said, I think most of us tweak the numbers a little.

 

For example, I'm running a modern espionage campaign right now. It's pretty much Standard Heroic, but with no Active Points. That is, no Powers at all.

[Doc Democracy]

I like to set guidelines that apply to all the players. I then allow the players to discuss an area in which they will shine, I then allow an additional 15 active points to that spotlight ability. Fly faster, tougher, stronger etc.

[Lucius]

Yeah, like Hyper-Man said, I think most of us tweak the numbers a little.

 

For example, I'm running a modern espionage campaign right now. It's pretty much Standard Heroic, but with no Active Points. That is, no Powers at all.

 

Since characters would find it hard to move around without Running, I assume you don't mean this literally?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary digs out Sue Perhugh-Mann

[Altair]

Noted!

 

Also, Hyper Man, your JLA builds have done a lot for helping me get a feel for the "weights" of different values. They were, quite frankly, one of my first touchstones for the system.

[bigdamnhero]

Firstly, the Character Ability Guidelines Table (6E1, p.35) is a really handy thing that frankly, I wish was in Champions Complete.

Yeah, in hindsight that was a serious omission! Especially for new GMs, trying to balance power levels without those guidelines can be a very frustrating hit-or-miss process.

 

Myself, I always create a similar set of guidelines for each campaign, and require that the players follow them. As others have stated, each PC might be allowed to exceed the guidelines in one area, but generally only one.The guidelines I create will generally stay pretty close to the "book" guidelines unless I deliberately want to change something. (Such as: I want to have damage classes be higher than normal compared to defenses, in order to make the game more lethal.) But at least I'm making an informed decision and have some idea what effect the change will have.

 

How does the feel of the game change at different levels? I've read the stuff on the distinction between Heroic and Superheroic, but I'm curious what changes, if any, there are between a game where everybody starts at SPD 5, and one where they start at SPD 2.

In terms of SPD specifically? For one thing, more actions between Recoveries, so END becomes a much bigger deal. Same for STUN to a lesser extent. Also remember that not all characters have to fall in the same range, just generally all PCs: NPCs may be more powerful, or less powerful as the story requires. Which is the main thing: if you want your PCs to be Larger Than Life, you need enough elbow room to distinguish between Super-Dude, Competent Agent Guy, and Elderly Bystander.

 

(As an aside: I remember years ago getting into a conversation with someone who was complaining that guns were too powerful in Champions because his hero couldn't completely ignore them. My answer to him was: then you need to make more powerful superheroes, rather than weaken guns to where they're barely a threat to Elderly Aunt Mabel.) 

 

do people adjust point totals, or give things for free?... Is this assumed to be part of the starting point value?

The default assumption is that they're included in the starting point total. You don't have to do it that way, of course, but I'd recommend starting out that way until you have a feel for what effect your changes will have.

[Crusher Bob]

I think the problem with a simple list of campaign maxima is too limited.  Unless the maxima are very larges it's actually pretty easy to meet all of them.  So I think 'campaign average' with directions on how much you character can deviate from the average is a more useful rule suggestion for making balanced parties.

 

So, for example, if we were making characters for a standard 350 supers game, and get told that the maxima are as follows:

CV 9

DC 12

Defense 30

SPD 6

 

It's pretty easy for an experienced hero character builder to come up witha concept that would justify being at those levels of power and be able to find the points to get all that.

 

So instead, it's much better to give something like this:

 

CV

Average 7

Deviation 2

 

DC

Average 10

Deviation 2

 

Defense

Average 20

Deviation 5

 

Speed

Average 5

Deviation 1

 

(etc)

 

And tell players that their character can be a total of one deviation up after they were done.

 

So

 

CV 9 ( up 1)

DC 10 (average)

Defense 15 (down 1)

Speed 6 (up 1)

 

Is an acceptable character

 

And

 

CV 7 (average)

DC 12 (up 1)

Defense 25 (up 1)

Speed 4 (down 1)

 

is also an acceptable character.

 

And a character that comes out just 'average' in every area is probably too weak.

[Joe Walsh]

Since characters would find it hard to move around without Running, I assume you don't mean this literally?

 

Ha! No, they can move at normal human levels of Running.

[bigdamnhero]

I think the problem with a simple list of campaign maxima is too limited.  Unless the maxima are very larges it's actually pretty easy to meet all of them.  So I think 'campaign average' with directions on how much you character can deviate from the average is a more useful rule suggestion for making balanced parties.

...

So instead, it's much better to give something like this:

 

CV

Average 7

Deviation 2

I agree it's important to give a range, rather than just a maximum. I present it as CV: 5-9, but the result is the same.

[Altair]

I really like these ideas. Also, the recurring theme of "here are the caps/ranges/whatevers, everybody can bust those in one category" is really appealing to me. Just that little modification really changes the feel, provides context.

 

Let's take Swifto the Speedster. He wants to be fast, and will express this in a lot of ways, but SPD feels like the big one. 350 point characters, he sets his SPD to, let's say 7. That sounds pretty fast, right? 60 CP, that's non-trivial. And it has benefits! So that is what it is, he's fast I guess? 

 

Now, let's say that Swifto's GM has set a campaign limit of SPD 7. Ok, Swifto has SPD 7. We know it's the cap, so we're good - Swifto is as fast as anybody on PC scale can be. That feels pretty solid.

.

Now, let's say that Swifto's GM has set an SPD range of 4-6 for Supers, and we know that you can't get to SPD 4 without powers. So, even the slowest PC is going to be more human than human. Cool! Swifto's player sets his SPD to 6, because, well, he's swift. But wait! Their GM informs them that Swifto can buy SPD 7, because that's his thing. Swifto is SPD 7, and can legitimately start making Flash-style "fastest man alive" claims. 

 

In all three cases, the character is SPD 7. But man, that third one feels very meaningful, doesn't it? It's all relative, all context. This way gives significant context, and therefore wins my affection.

[Nolgroth]

The Hero system is more about providing the tools for the GM to make his campaign that it is for defining the game for the GM. Those guidelines are ones that I use often but they need to be tailored to each character. Your example of the GM allowing the speedster to exceed campaign maximum in his specific field is exactly the sort of thing that I am talking about. I've even used that concept with Skill Maxima for the campaigns that I run. I usually cap out the Skill roll at 14-. However, I let the players choose two skills for their characters that they can be Expert at (15-) and one skill that they can Master (16-). That has worked really well to define the Ace Pilot from the Engineering Whiz, to the Telepathic Warrior.

 

Some things I want to experiment with is using different campaign guidelines based on the characters' schtick.  The Brawler might have higher maxima in Str, PD, Stun, and Body, while the Mentalist might have higher Int, Ego, and Pre. The trick is not to overly refine it. Besides, once the game starts, character progression is limited by XP and by GM discretion. The character guidelines should really be used as a benchmark for character creation.

[Zephrosyne]

Before a campaign starts, I give detailed character creation guidelines and setting information (in writing).  I set a maximum limit of CVs, Damage Classes, Active Points, etc. and then let players do what they want from there.  If for some reason someone wants to exceed those limits, I'll entertain the reasoning, but I'm not likely to change my mind.  After the character is made, I evaluate what the player has created to see if it is within the character creation guidelines that I have given them and make sure the character is appropriate for the campaign and viable.  I always thought stuff like "niche protection" was rather silly, nor have I ever told a player "sorry, you are a brick you can't have a Speed of 6."  I firmly believe that "concept" is created by the person who made the character.  I shouldn't say what does or doesn't fit a player's concept just because it is different from what I would do.  That doesn't mean I'll allow any BS that is handed to me.  If I have questions about what someone is doing, I'll ask.  If I see something that is clearly going to be a problem because it is abusive or I don't want to be dealing with it, I'll have the player change it.  In general, I set the parameters and then let them go to it.  They have to play that character; I don't.  I've seen people come up with things that don't make much since to me--in fact looked really stupid to me--but the character was within campaign parameters, rules legal, non-abusive, and viable.  More importantly, the player had fun with what he created.  I would look at it, shrug, and then say have at it.  From there, it's your little red wagon; you can push it or pull it!

 

As is the case with other gms, I do tweak the Character Ability Guidelines according to the campaign.  Also, if a campaign is Heroic, I do use the Characteristic Maxima in most circumstances, with the exception of Speed, which uses the Characteristic Maxima (4) in every campaign that I run--Heroic or Super Heroic.

[mhd]

I've had more problems with stacked abilities than with individual point values (Heroic), so while this might cap some of the more obvious efforts, it's no panacea. In my case, it wasn't even that intetional, but if you're supposed to be good at something and there are no zany powers to sink your points in, things get pretty focused

 

Right now, I've abused HERO quite a lot:

- Double the costs for the core stats, "maximum" 15, bonus per 3, not 5

- SPD 4 for everyone (at no cost, simply not editable in Hero Designer anymore)

- "Fuzion-ized" skills (linear cost, wide spread expected). I wish HD would let me implement cumulative costs...

 

That's for a long-running campaign. If we'd just playing a short superheroic game where everyone is supposed to have SPD5+, I'd just set that down in writing and might increase point totals, but wouldn't mess with the Hero Designer templates (so they'd still have to pay for it).

[Zephrosyne]

Mhd, am I understanding you correctly?  Are you saying that everyone in the campaign has a Speed of 4?  Also, core stats double cost?  Do you mean Strength cost 2 points instead of 1, Dexterity cost 4 points instead of 2, etc.?  If a character exceeds 15, do you double the cost again (e.g. a Dexterity above 15 cost an extra 8 points per point)?  Do you do this for long running superheroic campaigns as well or just heroic?  Just trying to understand.  If I'm misunderstanding, please correct me.

[bluesguy]

Campaign limits are extremely important.  Here are mine:

 

• Heroic Level Fantasy game
• Superhero

These have worked pretty well for me over the past 4 years.

[mhd]

Mhd, am I understanding you correctly?  Are you saying that everyone in the campaign has a Speed of 4?  Also, core stats double cost?  Do you mean Strength cost 2 points instead of 1, Dexterity cost 4 points instead of 2, etc.?  If a character exceeds 15, do you double the cost again (e.g. a Dexterity above 15 cost an extra 8 points per point)?  Do you do this for long running superheroic campaigns as well or just heroic?.

I'm doing this with my current Heroic fantasy campaign. Not a lot of special powers, common spells or special abilities, so skills are a natural focus and I've never been fond of the way they were don in HERO.

 

All the regular stats now cost 2 points, including Dex, and yes, over 15 it's doubled again. But that's mostly to compensate for the fact that you're getting a bonus to your roll for every 3 points (as per APG2), so it's not a big enough change, but reduces non-skill stat effects to a more mundane range (e.g. unarmed damage, stun threshold).

 

And yes, SPD is considered 4 for everyone. As you don't pay for it and there are no exceptions, this basically just sets the ratio of phases per turn. Which doesn't come up that often, apart from some Extra Time issues and the cost of a "Haste" spell.

 

We also have a unified roll-over mechanic, so, yes, I do like Fuzion.

[Zephrosyne]

I'm doing this with my current Heroic fantasy campaign. Not a lot of special powers, common spells or special abilities, so skills are a natural focus and I've never been fond of the way they were don in HERO.

 

All the regular stats now cost 2 points, including Dex, and yes, over 15 it's doubled again. But that's mostly to compensate for the fact that you're getting a bonus to your roll for every 3 points (as per APG2), so it's not a big enough change, but reduces non-skill stat effects to a more mundane range (e.g. unarmed damage, stun threshold).

 

And yes, SPD is considered 4 for everyone. As you don't pay for it and there are no exceptions, this basically just sets the ratio of phases per turn. Which doesn't come up that often, apart from some Extra Time issues and the cost of a "Haste" spell.

 

We also have a unified roll-over mechanic, so, yes, I do like Fuzion.

Hmm, thanks for clarifying.  I have to say the Speed thing is interesting.

[Heroic Halfwit]

Personally, I use a different "Rule of X" and "Reason from effect" structure.  It means that my NPCs tend to be really wonky, but the players have fun so it's all good.  It's complicated and maybe I'll put it up in its own thread, but the basics of it are to use the "real world" items in the 6th E as baseline referents, tightly control CVs, and require "justification" of exceptional Characteristics.  In my games the Average Speed of PCs is between 3 and 4, OCV 5-6, and most of a characters characteristics that aren't tied up in the central concept of the character are human normal between 5-15.

 

I control these things because when I did not I got 2 bad results, 1 of which you alluded to everyone seems to be the same  OCV7-8, Spd 5-6, 10-14DC's of damage, 20-30 rpd/red, etc. 

 

The 2nd is related to the first in that there was too little room for each character to have their spotlight time.  Is a Speedster really be a Speedster if he's only got 1 extra phase?  Is a martial arts master or Sniper or other character really so great if the advantage of all that training is 1-2 OCV? 

 

I have established conventions about the frequency of different special effects based on my current library of antagonists (No Intense Magnetic Fields or glowing blue rocks from dead planets alas). 

 

The only hard and fast rule I have is that each character in a superheroic campaign must be able to take a stray bullet and have a fair chance of surviving.

 

Differences between 2 Spd and 5 Spd. 

- Recovery is much more effective in lower speed games, as are things like Quick Draw, Lightning Reflexes, etc.

- Endurance is much less of an issue in lower Spd games.

- In some ways lower Spd games are more tactical in that one can hold an action for much longer without incurring a "Non Action Penalty"

- Mind Control, Mental Illusions are weaker in lower SPD games because of the "receiving instructions" delay, and the fewer actions between break-free attempts.

 

With respect to Speed, when a character has a superhuman speed I ask the player, "Is the character fleet of foot?  Quick of hand? or does he really change strategy every 2 seconds?"  The first gets additional movement, the second autofire/sweep attacks and the third actually gets 6 Speed.

[bigdamnhero]

With respect to Speed, when a character has a superhuman speed I ask the player, "Is the character fleet of foot?  Quick of hand? or does he really change strategy every 2 seconds?"  The first gets additional movement, the second autofire/sweep attacks and the third actually gets 6 Speed.

That's a pretty good way of describing it.