$$ in medieval fantasy

[Cosmosemeritus]

*brushes fingers through thinning hair*

Wow yes. I can't disagree with anything either of you've said. Mostly because Locke gets me spinning only tip-toes in.

 

And I bountifully agree to the first sentence of your second to last paragraph.

 

So, while lacking in the depth of economic prudence, its my opinion that for the humble GM the act of fixing a weight to value standard is a good foundation for a coinage.

Doing so answers the two main practical concerns of the player: "How much of these thingies can I carry before I incur penalties to DEX rolls?" and "How many ponies can I buy with them?"

 

Secondarily: I do like the idea that player actions, or for that matter non-player actions, can cause economic effects. I fear that's a level of detail I eschew to model, however.

[IndianaJoe3]

I guess that was kind of a spoiler. Taxation is the source of the value of money, and coining tells you, right away, of the existence of a state. And once its coins are in your pocket, it is interested in you. 

 

You can see where the badfun comes in. "Congratulations, players, you have seized the dragon's hoard of coins, which are the instantion of the power of the emergent state!" Wrong or right as a question of political theory, players tend to prefer a more libertarian setting. 

 

I'm coming up with all kids of scenarios now, tied into the idea that wealth is also political power. 

[Markdoc]

I'm coming up with all kids of scenarios now, tied into the idea that wealth is also political power. 

 

I must admit I've always done this in my games. Players haven't always been the moneybags, though since huge hoards of coin tend not to crop up in my games very often. But almost inevitably in my games, the PCs tend to end up playing some role in political intrigues simply because of the kind of people PCs tend to be. And of course, where you have politics you  have wealth (not always cash: it can be land, ships, monopolies, etc)

 

Just off the top of my head, some of the relevant scenarioes have been - in the last campaign, the PCs gradually went from being wandering adventuring types, to local heroes, to being integrated into the local power structure - not just as combatants, but as members of the Temple hierarchy, the City Council, officers of the local militia and so on. Money in that game dealt with not just "How many ponies can I buy?" but "How do we fund an expansion of the militia and that new aqueduct?"

 

In the game before, the PCs rose from humble servants and soldiers to being courtiers and generals, and running a full-scale military invasion. This involved not just being in the frontline lopping off heads, but all the stuff before that as well - getting allies lined up, the logistics of actually getting their army to where the final battles would take place, squaring the military activities with the other ruling powers, etc.

In the campaign before that, they were roving adventurers, but still ended up collapsing one local government (and that adventure did involve a giant heap of treasure: the PCs' pursuit of the supposedly lost treasure set the local political scene aflame as all sides tried to grab a piece of the treasure, and local alliances unraveled. They also ended up - at a later stage dealing with a coup d'etat in a local city-state.

And in the campaign before that, they were enforcers for a merchant house, dealing with piracy and political intrigue, but also dealing with mundane issues like counterfeiting and escorting dignitaries.

 

Basically, because in most games PCs eventually become personally very powerful, they almost inevitably draw the attention of what ever passes for political authority.

 

cheers, Mark

[Michael Hopcroft]

Frequently in fantasy fiction men and women of power and skill become "adventurers" specifically to avoid such entanglements. And when required to take on such a role, they bolt the first chance they get.

[Markdoc]

Frequently in fantasy fiction men and women of power and skill become "adventurers" specifically to avoid such entanglements. And when required to take on such a role, they bolt the first chance they get.

 

Players are often not that different. When we play fantasy games, we are often not just looking to play powerful ubermenschen, but also slough off the predictability of a day job, a mortgage, dinner with your spouse's family every other week, etc. A lot of players are therefore certainly not planning to get entangled in a whole new set of (imaginary) social obligations. For this to work, the PCs and the players need to have a reason to want to do it. It's not something I would ever recommend a GM force on his players, but often it grows organically out of the game. I find that a lot of players are willing to enter into official contracts/obligations in a game for much the same reason they do it in real life: the feeling that they can actually make a difference.

 

cheers, Mark

[massey]

I hate getting involved in Fantasy Accountant Hero games.  I've played in one or two where the GM has his own pet theories on politics/the economy/history/technological advancement/social structure/etc.  The game ends up getting lost in favor of listening to the GM describe his incredibly intricate world and why it is better than a standard D&D world.  Should any of this matter in a game about wizards and dragons?  I don't think so.  The worst part is when it devolves into political arguments when a player knows or thinks he knows more about the subject than the GM.

 

At some point, realism has to take a back seat to fun.  I'm the guy in a fantasy game who often doesn't even write down stuff like copper pieces on the treasure list.  Why would I want to keep track of 50 different currencies and where they were issued?

[Old Man]

You wouldn't. Most of the time counting money is something you just don't want to deal with in a fantasy game. I've played in several campaigns where we used the Conan accounting method--all the spoils from the last adventure have been squandered by the start of the next.

 

It may be interesting on occasion for denominations to serve as a plot point ("Why does this guy have a purse full of Guilderian florins? Is he a spy?!") but elaborate conversion rates and the like are rarely worth the effort.

[Steve]

One of the ways I've used coinage to add color to campaigns has more to do with the rarity of its minting than the weight. Taking a simple silver piece as an example, a coin of the Elven kingdom might be far more valuable in human lands than its weight due to its artistry, rarity and suspected magical properties, or it could be treated with suspicion.

 

Digging up an old hoard of coins can initiate an adventure if it contains coins minted with an ancient tyrant's face. Maybe kingdoms commonly remint coins when a change in ruling families occurs, and having old coins invites suspicion or could be a token of a secret society.

 

"Ah, you bear a coin of Rexus Tyrannus. I did not realize you were a member of our group."

[Markdoc]

 

At some point, realism has to take a back seat to fun.  I'm the guy in a fantasy game who often doesn't even write down stuff like copper pieces on the treasure list.  Why would I want to keep track of 50 different currencies and where they were issued?

 

 

You wouldn't. Most of the time counting money is something you just don't want to deal with in a fantasy game. I've played in several campaigns where we used the Conan accounting method--all the spoils from the last adventure have been squandered by the start of the next.

 

It may be interesting on occasion for denominations to serve as a plot point ("Why does this guy have a purse full of Guilderian florins? Is he a spy?!") but elaborate conversion rates and the like are rarely worth the effort.

 

This is the truth It depends very much on the game and the players/GM. I like to have a solid grasp on coinage and trade costs, because it means I can answer odd questions about where things are from, what they're worth, etc. It also helps me come up with "appropriate" loot on the fly when I need to and can also be used as hints to unusual events, as noted above.

 

But the players don't need to keep track of any of this. I like to have it there if they ask, but it's not there to be packed down their throats if they don't ask. In the last game one of the PCs was a merchant and his player liked to ask questions about how much things were worth, where they came from, and different currencies to try and squeeze a few more coin out of his trading. So he cared about this stuff. The other PCs gave him all their excess loot and let him "invest" it for them - they didn't care.

 

In the game before that, we used the [money] technique. In other words, when the players set out on a mission for their lord, I said "The lord gives you [Money] for your trip."

Players: "How much?"

Me: "Way more than you need for lodging. The Lord says "Also, as you will be representing my house, you should have new clothes. Go to the shop of Akimura, who have dealt with my family for generations. Give him [Money] and he will ensure you are adequately clad" So they had enough coinage to cover expected expenses, so we could focus on other things.

 

We basically never dealt with coins at all in that game. The one time the players found a treasure hoard it was described as "really a lot of money". The players used some for lodging, some for "bribes of appropriate size" (they had a "bribe consultant" - no really! - who helped them work out what "appropriate size" was) and all of the rest on a really expensive piece of jewelry.

 

Both types of campaign are equally viable.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

 

Who do have to bribe to get a bribe consultant? And how much?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an appropriately sized palindromedary

[Markdoc]

A bribe consultant can inform you of the appropriate bribe required to obtain their services. And the first one, of course, is always free

 

More seriously, in this scenario the PCs wanted to get a message to someone important in the court. But as raggle-taggle provincials, they had no way of accessing the court or talking to anyone important there. So they managed to find a woman who had, at one point, worked at the court (as a courtesan) who now - her youth being gone - made a living advising visitors to the court on etiquette, training in dancing and poetry, etc ... and of course how to offer bribes of an appropriate size, without seeming coarse or vulgar..

 

A few coins or an appropriate "gift" in the right hands can get you an invitation to a party, where a few more gifts and a conversation can get you an invitation to another party, where you can talk to a man, who knows a girl who works as a maid for the person you actually want to get a message to. A few more meetings, some more gifts and a "chance meeting" can be arranged where a careful conversation can be had and a very expensive piece of jewellery can be passed to the maid ... aaaand a couple of months later you have an imperial warrant.

 

People like this really did exist, and intrigues like this seem to have been common in every society I know of that had a courtly culture - partly, I suspect because of the boredom of attending at court.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve]

Could Bribery be used as a super-skill?

[Markdoc]

I don't see why not, but in general, I try to avoid "superskilling" social skills, since you always seem to end up with variations on mind control.

 

Cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

And no one's even mentioned electrum yet

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Lucius was surprised when he first learned there actually IS an alloy called electrum used in ancient coinage

[eepjr24]

And the palindromedary spends it's ill gotten gains resurrecting year old threads. =P

 

My current GM is so free with coin that we don't even really bother keeping track. By our second adventure my player had more money than he gathered in most campaigns, AFTER he had already bought everything he needed to continue adventuring. As a result, no one is at all obsessed with coin, but it is kind of disappointing in that we don't get the satisfaction of earning enough coin for a fancy new set of clothes or the like.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

Hey guys !

 

For my world campaign i am looking for a realistic medieval money system. Maybe some examples would help.

 

What i mean by realistic is: a commoner never saw a gold piece in is life…. Even Silver! No DND Falvor

 

Hope i am clear english not my first language

 

Steph

I base mine off the old Robin Hood Supplement set in 12 century England.

https://www.amazon.com/Robin-Hood-Outlaw-Campaign-Rolemaster/dp/0915795280

 

Mostly barter but a few coppers. Real treasure would be silver pennies.

[womble]

If you (or a given player) actually want the different mints and weights of coin to be something they can play with, how about a "Numismatics" skill that can complement other negotiation skills when money is involved? The clever coin connoisseur knows how to get best value out of the raw weight of metal depending on custom and mores.

[bigdamnhero]

FWIW, here are the guidelines I put together for my current campaign set in 11th Century Europe. I mostly went with Keep It Simple:

 

Tldr - We're going to use “silver marks” as a generic/abstracted unit of currency. I don’t expect you to be hurting for money much, and this game isn’t really treasure-driven, so I don’t feel the need to count pennies unless you’re really into that.  This is mostly to provide context/color.

 

A lot of 11^th Century Europe’s day-to-day economy is still barter driven. And even for nobility, most of their wealth is in land, not cash. But most countries do mint their own coins nowadays; in fact, minting coins is considered one of the signs of being taken seriously as a “legitimate” country.

 

The names, sizes and value of coins vary widely from country to country. Their value typically exceeds their actual metal value, but this depends heavily on the perceived strength and legitimacy of the issuing government. As a result, the value of most coins drops the farther you get from that country. (“Meath? Never heard of it, this probably isn’t even real silver…”) So when you reached Constantinople, you probably traded most of your Roman coins in favor of either Byzantine coins or better yet coins from the region you’re headed towards – with of course some loss in actual value. It can get more complicated if say the country you just arrived in is mad at the country you came from, so the King has banned that country’s currency. We’ll mostly handwave this in actual game play, but it may show up as background color.

 

Banking is just starting to be a thing, mostly for money changing. It is theoretically possible for you to get a loan from a bank in Constantinople based on the value of your lands in Wales, but  in practice the communication time necessary to verify that value means it’s probably not going to be practical in game terms.

 

Anyway, for simplicity I’m just going to abstract prices as being worth so many “silver marks.” The word mark at this time was used by many countries as more of accounting term than a coin per se, so I’m adopting it.

• 1 silver mark is roughly equal to the day’s wages of a yeoman or craftsman. Regional examples: English shilling, Cordovan dirham.
• For commoners, most daily transactions are conducted in pennies, which is a small silver piece roughly equal to the day’s wages of a peasant. (Not that peasants are paid in money, but you get the idea.) 12 pennies are worth 1 mark. For smaller transactions, pennies are frequently chopped up into halfpennies and farthings and so on. Regional examples: English pence, Byzantine bronze follies.
• Gold is rare but not unheard of. I picture trying to pay for your meal with gold coins being like handing over a $100 bill at the 7-11: it’s legal tender, it’s not like the clerk hasn’t seen one before, but he’s going to squint at it closely and may not have enough change to cover you. A gold crown might be worth 12-20 silver marks. Regional semi-equivalents: English crown, Byzantine solidus, Cordovan dinar.