What is HERO combat like?

[Greywind]

Probably because the Speedster and the Power Armor Guy can't do combat at those speeds. Breaking the the sound barrier inside an urban setting does nasty things to, like, windows.

[zslane]

I kind of feel that the benefits of having lots of combat movement are pretty intuitive? Crossing the map in a single half move is (mostly) pointless, but having the Flight ability to do so is not. There are many tactically valuable things you can do with that much Flight (or Running or whatever).

[Altair]

Admittedly I'm relatively new to HERO, but I like Hex-grid and Map for fantasy, since movement for pretty much everyone is at a reasonable scale. It allows players to make use tactical combat, especially when a number of the players have either AoEs, 'Attacks of Opportunity' (essentially built as Naked Triggers on damage or other effects), or both, which require a reasonable knowledge of the area and the combatants therein.

 

Cool idea - I've been trying to figure out how I want to model AoE-type attacks, and naked triggers are worth exploring. 

 

 

I kind of feel that the benefits of having lots of combat movement are pretty intuitive? Crossing the map in a single half move is (mostly) pointless, but having the Flight ability to do so is not. There are many tactically valuable things you can do with that much Flight (or Running or whatever).

 

I think it depends on how interesting the tactical part is to what everybody's doing. Watching a speedster have enough movement to thwack somebody, then run around a city block to position themselves behind & out of sight of the boogum? That was a genuinely cool moment, and one that I think was aided by the map being there. 

 

I'm about to go overboard and build some foamcore skyscrapers. Reasons! 

[Greywind]

I kind of feel that the benefits of having lots of combat movement are pretty intuitive? Crossing the map in a single half move is (mostly) pointless, but having the Flight ability to do so is not. There are many tactically valuable things you can do with that much Flight (or Running or whatever).

 

Mach 5 is non-combat speed. Jets don't do combat at that speed.

[zslane]

No, Mach 5 was an example of non-combat speed, to be sure. I was speaking to the issue of high levels of combat speed as a general principle. One does not purchase 100" of Flight in order to pointlessly cross the battlemat, or to look cool or impressive. And a Speedster can't use lots of movement to attack and move away in the same Phase, so that example is invalid (and I have to believe that someone who knows and uses the actual rules would know that, but whatever...)

 

One does it in order to add +20DCs to a 20-hex Move-By, or to reach the other side of the battlemat in order to get between an innocent bystander and a villain's attack. Or any number of other legitimate tactical needs that arise on the battlefield in your average superhero battle.

[Altair]

And a Speedster can't use lots of movement to attack and move away in the same Phase, so that example is invalid (and I have to believe that someone who knows and uses the actual rules would know that, but whatever...)

 

 

Is there something in the rules that prohibits using a 1/2 phase to strike, then a 1/2 phase to move? I can't find it. Never mind, I found it. While I can't say that I'm happy with the rule -- it never made any logical or mechanical sense to me -- I'll try implementing that next time I play with this stuff, see what it does. I suppose that with the extraordinary amounts of movement that are possible in HERO, if people can attack-then-move, it might make high movement rates the dominant combat strategy.

 

Easy fix: the awesome thing my player did was a move-by attack. Still hits, just does an unnecessary amount of extra damage. With the movement speed and no turn radius, it still works. Might have even been the player's intent to do it as such, as the route was plotted before the attack roll was made, so that could just be one of the (many) details that I missed.

 

To your other points, I will simply posit that one buys things for all manner of reasons, as many people engage with roleplaying games in different ways, and derive enjoyment from different things. I absolutely believe that that is why you, and perhaps everyone that you game with does so, and they're all very valid, legitimate reasons. Awesome! 

[zslane]

Sure, and my ultimate point is that many of those reasons only make sense in the context of a detailed tactical treatment as you would get on a battlemat. This was in response to: "...when the speedster can travel across literally every single hex on the map in a turn amd the guy in power armor can fly at Mach 5, what's the point of a map?" Even with Speedsters and their "insane" amount of movement, there are countless reasons to use a map. One pointless usage example (traveling across the whole map in a Phase) does not a compelling anti-map argument make, that's all I'm trying to say.

[Altair]

Cool cool

 

Sorry if I came off as testy, I was cross at missing the "attack ends turn" rule, cross at its existence, then cross at myself for not seeing the reason behind it in HERO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its worth at least trying a few games to test not ending someone's phase with combat.  Even breaking moves down to smaller segments so you can move 1/4, attack, and move 1/4 would be worth trying.

[Greywind]

One does it in order to add +20DCs to a 20-hex Move-By, or to reach the other side of the battlemat in order to get between an innocent bystander and a villain's attack. Or any number of other legitimate tactical needs that arise on the battlefield in your average superhero battle.

 

...and violate the GM's damage cap. Nice going.

 

Is there something in the rules that prohibits using a 1/2 phase to strike, then a 1/2 phase to move? I can't find it. Never mind, I found it. While I can't say that I'm happy with the rule -- it never made any logical or mechanical sense to me -- I'll try implementing that next time I play with this stuff, see what it does. I suppose that with the extraordinary amounts of movement that are possible in HERO, if people can attack-then-move, it might make high movement rates the dominant combat strategy.

 

Easy fix: the awesome thing my player did was a move-by attack. Still hits, just does an unnecessary amount of extra damage. With the movement speed and no turn radius, it still works. Might have even been the player's intent to do it as such, as the route was plotted before the attack roll was made, so that could just be one of the (many) details that I missed.

 

To your other points, I will simply posit that one buys things for all manner of reasons, as many people engage with roleplaying games in different ways, and derive enjoyment from different things. I absolutely believe that that is why you, and perhaps everyone that you game with does so, and they're all very valid, legitimate reasons. Awesome! 

 

Game balance. Otherwise you get someone that will hit you, run away, and you waste your turn trying to catch up to them.

[massey]

I disagree with a lot of things that have been said in the last dozen or so posts.

 

While Hero *can* be a tactical wargame, it doesn't have to be. Counting out hexes to see if you are within half-move range or what your exact range penalty will be is fine if that's what you are into, but it isn't required. You can abandon the battle map and it still be perfectly within the rules.

 

I have a character with 60" of combat flight. He doesn't violate any damage caps (there aren't any in that campaign) or other game rules. And it is pointless to have a hex map in that campaign because everyone moves so fast that they will be off the map in a phase. So we don't use one.

[Altair]

Game balance. Otherwise you get someone that will hit you, run away, and you waste your turn trying to catch up to them.

 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking with the whole movement power thing. If I can poke you, then fly 100 meters up to end my turn, it does kind of make that conflict lopsided. What I want is for combat (especially with superheroes) to be exciting, dynamic and kinetic - basically not the "Rock-em-Sock-em Robots" type of slugfest that some games can turn into. 

 

Being objective about it, I'm not really that worried. 

 

 

I think its worth at least trying a few games to test not ending someone's phase with combat.  Even breaking moves down to smaller segments so you can move 1/4, attack, and move 1/4 would be worth trying.

 

Worth checking out, for sure. For now, I'm still planning on running things out of the book, because I really want to get a feel for the game on its own terms.

 

 

I disagree with a lot of things that have been said in the last dozen or so posts.

 

While Hero *can* be a tactical wargame, it doesn't have to be. Counting out hexes to see if you are within half-move range or what your exact range penalty will be is fine if that's what you are into, but it isn't required. You can abandon the battle map and it still be perfectly within the rules.

 

I have a character with 60" of combat flight. He doesn't violate any damage caps (there aren't any in that campaign) or other game rules. And it is pointless to have a hex map in that campaign because everyone moves so fast that they will be off the map in a phase. So we don't use one.

 

Yep. Different strokes! It's good that there are different game styles, it's so good. I'm quite pleased at the versatility of HERO so far. When I want something super-tactical (every now and then I get it in my head to run something based off of the excellent Jagged Alliance 2, and I think HERO would be sublime for that) it's right there. When I don't, the underlying physics of the game mechanics are there, modeling things for me. 

 

I'll probably try some brawls with Fate-style zones, and some that are 100% description-based, and see how that goes. 

[Scott Baker]

I disagree with a lot of things that have been said in the last dozen or so posts.

 

While Hero *can* be a tactical wargame, it doesn't have to be. Counting out hexes to see if you are within half-move range or what your exact range penalty will be is fine if that's what you are into, but it isn't required. You can abandon the battle map and it still be perfectly within the rules.

 

I have a character with 60" of combat flight. He doesn't violate any damage caps (there aren't any in that campaign) or other game rules. And it is pointless to have a hex map in that campaign because everyone moves so fast that they will be off the map in a phase. So we don't use one.

To put this in perspective, is that how you started out playing? Or is this something you progressed to over the years?

[Tech]

I've never encountered Champions players who used theatre of the mind for superheroics. Everyone I've ever played with wanted to use every bit of tactical detail available on the battlemat. The thinking was that if you're running supers and you're not trying to line up your opponents for maximum knockback damage, you're doing it wrong... ;-)

 

You have now. Our group rarely uses a battlemap.

 

However, if you meant 'never encountered in person', well that's different.

[massey]

To put this in perspective, is that how you started out playing? Or is this something you progressed to over the years?

 

We started out with a battlemap, but it changed pretty quickly towards description only.  On occasion we've pulled out a map if the area is really complicated, or if there are a ton of people on the field, just to help everyone visualize it.  We've had a fight before where there were 50+ supers on the field at once.  Even then, most of the time it rapidly changes back to pure description.  High speed, high movement characters can cover large distances very fast.  Nobody wants to redraw the battlemap 10 times during the course of a fight.  "You are in Central Park."  Megascale knockback!  "Well, hell.  Now you're both in Jersey."  scribble scribble  "Just imagine these scribbles are piles of trash, used cars, and tanning salons."

[Altair]

  Now you're both in Jersey."  scribble scribble  "Just imagine these scribbles are piles of trash, used cars, and tanning salons."

 

I see somebody's been to Jersey. *Hides under a desk*

 

Kidding! I grew up in Cleveland, I can't really throw shade

[Nolgroth]

I'll admit up front that I merely skimmed the thread. Even during that brief perusal, I saw something that hit my "rankle" button. I've ran Hero in both live and online variants. I have never seen the combat portion take any longer than most other games. The one advantage, in terms of quick play combat, I give it to D&D 4E. It was super quick, even for a bunch of new players and GM. Any and all other games that I have played have taken as long or longer than Hero. I also tend to play with a lot of the bells and whistles of the system in play.

 

As to how it feels, that depends upon those aforementioned bells and whistles. The more you layer on, the more deep combat feels to me. Some options do add some time (especially Hit Locations and Impairing/Disabling wounds) but the time is usually minor. A fully engaged combat, using maneuvers, hit locations and all that is a very satisfying experience. It takes some practice on the GM's (and to a lesser extend the players') part, but once mastered can make for a very dynamic combat system.

 

What I love most is how it scales. A few points of CV or changing the Damage Class vs Defenses ratio can have a major impact. At the same time, most characters of a given genre are within spitting distance of each other in terms of their expendable stats. On the whole, you can build a competent fighter type that can dominate combat but still be severely injured by a nominally luck shot from a peasant. Again, using the bells and whistles option is worth it.

 

My biggest issue comes with the fact that combat can be very easily broken. Defense Maneuver above level II is pretty much a deal breaker for me. Not enforcing a rough balance can mean that one character can easily go beyond dominating combat to become akin to a combat god. Speed imbalance is one way that I've seen that happen. That also tends to make for bored players as most of the group has to sit around while Everysegment Man gets to act and act and act. It is for these reasons that I always use some sort of character guidelines in my games. For my online games, I also tend to lock characters at the same speed with a few special abilities granting a turn of extra speed here and there. I'm not as picky with live games.

 

An important disclaimer is that I use Hero for heroic not super-heroic levels of play. I probably should play a Champions character just to get an idea how that runs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Game balance. Otherwise you get someone that will hit you, run away, and you waste your turn trying to catch up to them.

 

Well, you can hit someone as long as you are right beside him, then run away.  And then he can go do something else, or just wait for you to come back.  He can go indoors where you can't see him, for example.  A character with high movement can also zip in from a long ways away, hit you, and wind up a long ways away too - Move By.  We've run a game or two without the "can't move after attacking" rule, and the balance didn't really change noticably.

 

We started out with a battlemap, but it changed pretty quickly towards description only.  On occasion we've pulled out a map if the area is really complicated, or if there are a ton of people on the field, just to help everyone visualize it.  We've had a fight before where there were 50+ supers on the field at once.  Even then, most of the time it rapidly changes back to pure description.  High speed, high movement characters can cover large distances very fast.  Nobody wants to redraw the battlemap 10 times during the course of a fight.  "You are in Central Park."  Megascale knockback!  "Well, hell.  Now you're both in Jersey."  scribble scribble  "Just imagine these scribbles are piles of trash, used cars, and tanning salons."

 

So what difference does it make how much movement you have?  If I move 60 meters per phase, and you move 40, how does my superior movement get reflected in ToM play?

[Altair]

So what difference does it make how much movement you have?  If I move 60 meters per phase, and you move 40, how does my superior movement get reflected in ToM play?

 

In my experience and estimation, it still shows up, though admittedly, ToM tends to be less granular, as a rule. Having said that, it matters as much, and in much the same way as any other implementation. 

 

True, if you ask the GM how far away mook x is, and they say "not too far, you can reach him," then your extra 20m of movement hasn't really been given a chance to shine.

 

The exact same thing is true if you're playing on a hexmap, and the GM always puts the opposition close enough that your movement doesn't matter. 

 

They're different experiences, but I think that's the point. I'll often use different techniques for different fights over the course of a campaign, because every method has its own strengths and weaknesses. They're tools.

 

I want a big toolbox. So I use them both, and other methods besides.

[massey]

 

 

So what difference does it make how much movement you have?  If I move 60 meters per phase, and you move 40, how does my superior movement get reflected in ToM play?

 

I guess it just depends.  Am I chasing you?  Are we circling each other, shooting with our energy blasts?  Are you using move-bys on me?  Just depends.

[zslane]

Well, you can hit someone as long as you are right beside him, then run away.

Huh? Attacks always end your Phase, regardless of whether or not you do anything with your other half Phase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Correct, he was speculating upon a possible problem with letting people move after attacking.  But its not really an issue, since that happens in real life.

[Greywind]

Usually ending with the perp being shot in the back by the police.

[zslane]

Ah. These debates get kinda confusing sometimes.

[Hugh Neilson]

In my experience and estimation, it still shows up, though admittedly, ToM tends to be less granular, as a rule. Having said that, it matters as much, and in much the same way as any other implementation. 

 

True, if you ask the GM how far away mook x is, and they say "not too far, you can reach him," then your extra 20m of movement hasn't really been given a chance to shine.

 

The exact same thing is true if you're playing on a hexmap, and the GM always puts the opposition close enough that your movement doesn't matter. 

 

They're different experiences, but I think that's the point. I'll often use different techniques for different fights over the course of a campaign, because every method has its own strengths and weaknesses. They're tools.

 

I want a big toolbox. So I use them both, and other methods besides.

 

To the question of granularity, why use actual damage rolls and Defenses in ToM combat either?  We know your Force Blast is more powerful, so it will do more damage, and my defenses are higher, so I will take less damage from a hit.  Just roll to hit and let the GM decide when/if any given target is KO'd.  Hey, why even roll to hit?  The GM knows how much everyone invested in OCV and DCV, so we can remove that granularity as well.

 

And any of these approaches would work.  However, to me, it seems to defeat much of the purpose of buying abilities in tiny granular bits.

 

Huh? Attacks always end your Phase, regardless of whether or not you do anything with your other half Phase.

 

To clarify, I was responding to your post that the ability to hit an opponent, then fly 100 meters straight up, was a game breaker.  It's not.