Using Money Instead of Character Points (Superheroic)

[Supabeasto]

I finally got a group together, and in a not entirely unforeseen turn of events, my players have become villains.

Our campaign is now the takeover of a superpower-adapted Hudson City.

 

Since my players will now likely want to rob banks and take over drug trades, would it be fair to allow them to spend money on character points? Ideally I would like to give them some sort of mechanical reward for building up a bunch of riches. What would be a fair conversion rate? A couple thousand dollars to a point?

 

Alternatively, would it be a better idea to simply give them a bonus XP for each "Business" they acquire and successfully maintain? I'm still not very sure what a good amount of XP to give players at the end of a session is.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Christougher]

I think your last line is the best option.  If taking over an operation and gaining the cashflow from it was one of the session's goals, they should get an XP for it.  They can then choose to spend the XP on a wealth perk to represent continuing income.

 

As for how many XP, most GMs will give out 1-3 per session.  It's easier to be stingy and make up for it later than to take it back.

 

Chris.

[Vondy]

This sounds a bit like "XP for GP," which harkens back to the misty beginnings of our hobby.

 

I would suggest giving XP for accomplishing tangible story goals -- like assuming control of "market sectors."

 

That way you don't have to worry about "if I give them to much money they get too much experience."

 

And, I agree that XP shouldn't be taken away once given. Just be a little parsimonious until you get your sea legs as a GM.

[dmjalund]

just as long as we are not talking about players bribing the GM

[assault]

Bribing the GM is an ancient tradition. This was why the pizza thread in NGD was so important.

[Vondy]

...as long as we are not talking about players bribing the GM

My players give me character points all the time.

[Lucius]

 

You might consider allowing player characters to use money for "ordinary" type weapons and equipment.

 

Possibly also temporary followers or contacts.

 

For some things, you might require BOTH character points and money; buying a base or vehicle for instance.

 

You might consider allowing money to buy one shot items, like a death-trap or a fragile irreplaceable prototype weapon, that won't be permanent parts of the character. I wouldn't get too carried away with that sort of thing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Supabeasto]

Thank you all for the responses!

 

It looks like I'll be going with XP for tangible story goals and cash for one shot/"ordinary" items.

 

If they want anything more, they'll have to pay the pizza price.

[Christopher]

Since my players will now likely want to rob banks and take over drug trades, would it be fair to allow them to spend money on character points? Ideally I would like to give them some sort of mechanical reward for building up a bunch of riches. What would be a fair conversion rate? A couple thousand dollars to a point?

Fair?

Propably.

 

A good idea for balance?

Absolutely not!

 

Adding another resource (especially money) is always fraught with danger for Balance.

It went so far that D&D has tables how much wealth a character should have based on level. It is something that heroic games in Hero struggle with in particular. The "only what you paid XP for" rule is there to make certain the money issues do not work thier way into Superheroics.

 

But there is actualyl a third option in APG I 191 - the rules for Resource Pools.

These put managing stuff like Weapons, Vehicles/Bases and Contacts into a VPP like construct. You get some points for free. You can buy more points for XP at an increased rate. And the GM can give out extra points based on session results, as a more granular and more directed alternative to XP.

[Supabeasto]

But there is actualyl a third option in APG I 191 - the rules for Resource Pools.

These put managing stuff like Weapons, Vehicles/Bases and Contacts into a VPP like construct. You get some points for free. You can buy more points for XP at an increased rate. And the GM can give out extra points based on session results, as a more granular and more directed alternative to XP.

 

This is awesome! Thank you for this, it's pretty close to what I was trying to go for.

[Lucius]

Fair?

Propably.

 

A good idea for balance?

Absolutely not!

 

Adding another resource (especially money) is always fraught with danger for Balance.

It went so far that D&D has tables how much wealth a character should have based on level. It is something that heroic games in Hero struggle with in particular. The "only what you paid XP for" rule is there to make certain the money issues do not work thier way into Superheroics.

 

But there is actualyl a third option in APG I 191 - the rules for Resource Pools.

These put managing stuff like Weapons, Vehicles/Bases and Contacts into a VPP like construct. You get some points for free. You can buy more points for XP at an increased rate. And the GM can give out extra points based on session results, as a more granular and more directed alternative to XP.

I believe the exact same rules, and if not something like them, are in Dark Champions.

 

Dark Champions has a lot of other stuff that probably applies if one is running a supervillain campaign.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders why there isn't a Light Champions

[Pattern Ghost]

They were in 4th Edition Dark Champions, so likely carried forward.

[Vondy]

I use resource points for civilian-mundane-non-signature equipment.

 

This is because my games tend to be high-powered commando hero with low-level super-powers.

 

The characters typically work for a group or government that has access to gear.

 

And, the kinds of story I tell and scenarios I run means characters change their operational kit a lot.

 

However, in a high powered superheroic game one might not sweat mundane gear, either.

 

After all, does the 4-6DC government issue sidearm really unbalance a character with a built in 14DC main attack?

 

Or prove effective when going to head with another high-powered super?

[massey]

 

However, in a high powered superheroic game one might not sweat mundane gear, either.

 

After all, does the 4-6DC government issue sidearm really unbalance a character with a built in 14DC main attack?

 

Or prove effective when going to head with another high-powered super?

 

Yeah, it doesn't really matter what kind of car Superman drives.  

 

--

 

As far as the original question, I think giving character points for successfully stealing money could be fine, as long as they are limited in what they spend it on.  It might be an interesting way in doling out XP.  "You've stolen thirty million dollars.  After money laundering fees, you each now have 10 points of wealth."  If they want to buy a base, it comes out of their money.  Perhaps there are expensive super-treatments that can boost your powers.  Dr. Mutation charges quite a lot to give you the "+15 Str" radiation treatment.

 

It could be a fun way to do it.

[Supabeasto]

Soooo......coming back to this.

 

We've run a few sessions now and I've hit a bump of a bump.

 

I repurposed Steel Commando, but my players killed him. Now they want his gun.

 

How would you guys handle that?

[Hugh Neilson]

The bigger question is how you want to handle it.

 

If you don't want the gun in play, then the following (beyond "then pay the points for it") de-motivate it:

 

- how many of them have the Weapon Familiarity to avoid a -3 OCV penalty? You get WF for free if you buy the weapon, not if you loot it.

 

- who else wants the gun? Government, agencies, etc.? OK, you have a gun (which should cost, say, 45 points) and an equal number of points in new Hunteds and other disads (Reputation seems like another reasonable one).

 

- where do you get the customized ammo? Do you know who supplied him? Are they willing to supply you? Do you have the skills to make the ammo yourself?

 

- similarly, can you maintain the gun? Do you have the skills, or does it gradually deteriorate?

 

- how much money (since they have some measure of money focus) does it cost to maintain the gun? Does its use erode their resource pool?

 

- how much of what the gun could do was built into it, and how much related to the owner's skills? They only get the former by stealing the gun.

 

If it's not a big deal from your or the game's perspective, these issues need not be emphasized. What do they really have? Probably a suite of attack powers requiring they hold the gun (so a lot of their other attack options can't be used in tandem with the gun), so it may not be worth much more than a few multipower slots.

 

Of course, if the gun is that easy to maintain, acquire ammo for and use effectively, other groups could probably start producing them, and arming agents with them.

[Supabeasto]

Really I just figured how this gun is handled will set the precedent for future loot.

 

I have several goons with high tech weaponry and power armor, not to mention ARGENT itself is a presence in the city. I figured I should establish some kind of baseline for how this type of loot is handled. If it weren't for the fact that one of them burned a hole straight through SC's chest, they would've looted the suit too.

 

Right now I'm thinking of implementing Kits and Armories from Dark Champions, but I like some of the things you outlined. They definitely do not have WF to handle it, or a means to maintain it, or even know what kind of ammo it uses.

[procyon]

I have no idea who Steel Commando is, or what his equipment does.

But I am pretty sure I would have ruled that it was designed with a 'dead man' type destruct mechanism that SC would have placed to make sure that it couldn't be stolen and used against him, fall into the wrong hands if he was captured/died, or was available for evidence if he was forced to leave it behind.

So the players would likely have had less than a day to mess with it, before it went away.

 

But that is just me.

[massey]

I'd let them keep it as a trophy no problem.  I don't know what his gun does, but if it was something special I'd even let it be used once or twice if the situation called for it.  After all, if someone breaks into the Batcave, then it is possible Batman could grab Mr. Freeze's gun and use it on the attacker.  But Spider-Man doesn't ride around on Green Goblin's glider even if it would be kind of cool.

 

I'd just tell the player flat out -- if you want to use this more than once or twice, you've gotta buy it.

[assault]

According to the Champions Villains 3 writeup, his gun is 88 points worth.

 

No PC in a game of mine is going to just pick up that kind of stuff.

[procyon]

According to the Champions Villains 3 writeup, his gun is 88 points worth.

 

No PC in a game of mine is going to just pick up that kind of stuff.

Wow.

If it is 88 points worth of useful - it isn't going to be around very long unless someone had the points to buy it.

And none of my players have ever had that many points saved up.  So it is going to be history.

The record so far for my group has been saving 22 points...

[assault]

Actually, now that I think about it...

 

It isn't a conventional game, and conventional logic doesn't necessarily apply. It might be fun to let them have it. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

 

I don't know how much Steel Commando was "repurposed", but it would be worth looking at his character sheet.

 

The published version of the gun uses charges. There's the first twist. The PCs are going to have to find a new source for these, or learn how to make them.

 

They also won't be able to easily repair, replace or replicate it. That means if it is lost, it is gone. It also means that only one member of the party will be able to use it. The others aren't going to be able to get their own copies.

 

Steel Command's Hunteds and Rivals may also be interested in the gun. There's a "seasonal plot arc" right there. In effect, the gun will be paid for by extra Complications. Whatever the PCs do, certain other interests will be likely to get involved. That assumes, of course, that they use the gun in anything resembling public. Does anyone know that they killed Steel Commando?

 

More generally, you will have established that this game is a loot collecting game. That's fine - you just need to keep an eye on what loot you hand out, just like in any other such game. Allow for the fact that the game will involve sudden jumps (and falls!) in power level. There's also the issue that if one PC gets a nice piece of loot, the other players are going to want nice loot for their characters too.

 

The main thing is for everyone to have fun. Go for it!

[procyon]

I've never used the rules for resource points/pools, but I suppose if you could justify adding the weapon to that sort of framework - it could be acceptable.

Then if a character choose to carry it, they would be giving up a lot of versatility they could otherwise have by devoting their points to that item.

 

But in our current game, even if I tagged the gun with Independent to lower the point total and attached several disadvantages to it...I would still be wary of allowing the players to keep.

A weapon with that many points associated may let some member of the group overshadow the rest - which is generally (for my group) bad for play.

 

But if everyone has resource pools and everyone else is packing around assault rifles/body armor/night vision goggles/lock picks/etc while one character packs around SC gun...that could work ok.

[Supabeasto]

If by any chance you've looked at the Hudson City and Predators book, I basically took one of the gang leaders and gave him Steel Commando's stats and powers.

 

 

Steel Command's Hunteds and Rivals may also be interested in the gun. There's a "seasonal plot arc" right there. In effect, the gun will be paid for by extra Complications. Whatever the PCs do, certain other interests will be likely to get involved. That assumes, of course, that they use the gun in anything resembling public. Does anyone know that they killed Steel Commando?

 

There are definitely people who want this gun. Namely ARGENT, whom I said SC stole the gear from. Paying for the gun in complications sounds like a pretty good approach.

 

As for if anyone knows, pretty much all of the city knows now. The PCs made a very public display of SC's death.

[assault]

Hmm. So SC's family and friends know who did it.

 

Are you saying SC was a gang leader? If so, someone will try to take over what is left of the gang and/or its turf and business. Potentially multiple someones. Maybe including the PCs, from what you've written about the campaign. Gang War!

 

So: ARGENT wants the gun. Somebody else wants vengeance. Somebody else again wants control of the gang/turf. None of them like the PCs.

 

That's not mentioning the authorities, and anyone else who gets excited about very public displays of death.

 

All this grief for 88 points. A bargain!