Hovering

[tripthicket]

What would be the limitation on Flight if the character can only Hover with it? No movement, not up, down, sideways, nada, merely standing on air (the character I have in mind has other movement powers to get him up there in the first place). Is there a minimum base cost with Flight? Would one need to buy enough Flight to overcome the effects of falling, or is 1m of Flight good enough, since the character isn't falling? Should I buy enough Flight to (try to) counter terminal velocity, if the character is knocked out (and thus begins falling), then comes to before going splat? Same question with mid-air Knockback? 1m of Flight to counter 1m of Knockback? Thanks for any advice, and if I need to be over in the Ask Steve forum for this one, let me know.

[Hyper-Man]

Here's how I tackled a similar issue for a famous character.

 

2 He Can Fly!: Flight 2m, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), No Gravity Penalty (+1/2) (3 Active Points) Conditional Power - Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

Notes: Allows him to hover without dedicating a VPP slot to Flight.

 

Only to Hover would probably be worth at least (-1) but would only save 1 additional Real Point.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

What does No Gravity Penalty do if it's only hovering with no movement?

[Hyper-Man]

What does No Gravity Penalty do if it's only hovering with no movement?

 

It wouldn't do anything.  No Gravity is good for vertical movement.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

It wouldn't do anything.  No Gravity is good for vertical movement.

 

Exactly, which is why I was wondering why it was in your power there.

[Hyper-Man]

Exactly, which is why I was wondering why it was in your power there.

 

It was copied from the character link in my original post. 

As-Is it allows for a small amount of movement in any direction.  It could even be used to slow down from a terminal velocity fall - it would just take 2-3 minutes to do so. 

 

If I was building an effect to stop falling velocity as a primary goal, a separate 1-2m Teleport build with No Relative Velocity and other appropriate Limitations would be a cheap way to acheive the effect when combined with Flight built with an Only to Hover Limitation. Total Cost should probably be under 5 Real Points.

[Christopher]

What would be the limitation on Flight if the character can only Hover with it? No movement, not up, down, sideways, nada, merely standing on air (the character I have in mind has other movement powers to get him up there in the first place).

This sounds a bit like you try to trick your way around just buying flght. One important thing is to never mix up the game effect and the special effect, or trying to oversimulate the special effect.

"Jumping/Teleporting halfmove up, actvate floating" is a slightly more complex way to just buy flight in the first place.

 

If the character floats via antigravity and moves by projecting air pressure waves, you just invented a two-part special effect for plain flight. the power.

 

 

About breaking a fall with this:

It's a bit tricky. Effectively gravity works as 10 STR pulling you down on every segment.

 

Just having flight online means you don't accelerate anymore. That is all "flight on" does for you. You keep any movement already aquired and can only shed it as fast as you have flight. You don't need to actively put your flight movement against the gravity in a tugging contest.

If you fall at 40 m/segment and get your 10m flight running (without using it otherwise), you won't start going beyond 40 m/segment.

If you get that flight running on the phase before impact and use it to slow down, you would impact as if travellng at 30m/segment. Of course you could up this by using non-combat movement or pushing.

[Lucius]

What would be the limitation on Flight if the character can only Hover with it? No movement, not up, down, sideways, nada, merely standing on air

Well, Gliding is a -1 Limitation so I might use Gliding and then stack a further - 1/4 or so Limitation on it to prevent movement.

 

(the character I have in mind has other movement powers to get him up there in the first place).

Like Leaping or Teleport?

 

Is there a minimum base cost with Flight? Would one need to buy enough Flight to overcome the effects of falling, or is 1m of Flight good enough, since the character isn't falling?

You could use Trigger: when character begins to fall, and then 1m would probably be enough.

 

Should I buy enough Flight to (try to) counter terminal velocity, if the character is knocked out (and thus begins falling), then comes to before going splat? Same question with mid-air Knockback? 1m of Flight to counter 1m of Knockback? Thanks for any advice, and if I need to be over in the Ask Steve forum for this one, let me know.

You might try this power to counter falling, knockback, and even Movement Powers Usable as Attack.

 

Cancel Velocity: (Total: 16 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Teleportation 1m, No Relative Velocity, Position Shift (16 Active Points); Can Only Teleport To Current Location (-1), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

This "Teleports" you from where you are, to where you are (i.e. not really a teleport, even if it's using the Teleport Power) but without velocity. It might need a Trigger to be effective against Knockback (unless you held a phase, or are allowed to abort to use it.)

 

What kind of special effects are you using anyway?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Simulating a palindromedary

[WistfulD]

Would one need to buy enough Flight to overcome the effects of falling, or is 1m of Flight good enough, since the character isn't falling? Should I buy enough Flight to (try to) counter terminal velocity, if the character is knocked out (and thus begins falling), then comes to before going splat? Same question with mid-air Knockback? 1m of Flight to counter 1m of Knockback? Thanks for any advice, and if I need to be over in the Ask Steve forum for this one, let me know.

 

You need as much flight as required to counteract whatever wind you might end up going against. That's about it. As for being knocked out, I've never heard anyone suggest that you need more flight speed than the speed you are falling to break a fall. It might take longer (hope you don't wake up 20 ft. from the ground), but that's about it. Of course, if you have some magic "standing on air" thing going on, why not make it inherent? I totally want to see a superhero unconscious, lying on an invisible ledge, with his non-flying buddies going, "okay, how do we get up there to splash him with cold water?"

[Chris Goodwin]

You might try this power to counter falling, knockback, and even Movement Powers Usable as Attack.

 

Cancel Velocity: (Total: 16 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Teleportation 1m, No Relative Velocity, Position Shift (16 Active Points); Can Only Teleport To Current Location (-1), no Noncombat movement (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

I wouldn't allow this at all.  If you want to counter Knockback, buy Knockback Resistance.  

 

Edit to add:  To counter falling, I'd expect you to buy more than 1" or 2m of Flight.  If you have a reasonable amount of Flight, you only need to use a minimum amount of it to hover, but you need enough to bleed off the velocity if you've got any motion at all.  

[Hyper-Man]

I wouldn't allow this at all.  If you want to counter Knockback, buy Knockback Resistance.  

 

Edit to add:  To counter falling, I'd expect you to buy more than 1" or 2m of Flight.  If you have a reasonable amount of Flight, you only need to use a minimum amount of it to hover, but you need enough to bleed off the velocity if you've got any motion at all.  

 

As built, the No Velocity Teleport example would not be an automatic defense vs. Knockback since it would require at least a Half Phase Action to use.  IF a Variable Trigger Advantage and a Safe Blind Teleport Adder were added I think the Active and Real Costs would be at a threshold that would at least merit the discussion of designating this as a legal 'Absolute Effect'.  Of course an appropriate SFX that doesn't step on any other character's Schtick would be preferable as well.

[Chris Goodwin]

As built, the No Velocity Teleport example would not be an automatic defense vs. Knockback since it would require at least a Half Phase Action to use.  IF a Variable Trigger Advantage and a Safe Blind Teleport Adder were added I think the Active and Real Costs would be at a threshold that would at least merit the discussion of designating this as a legal 'Absolute Effect'.  Of course an appropriate SFX that doesn't step on any other character's Schtick would be preferable as well.

 

This is a flat out violation of the spirit of the No Velocity Teleport Adder.  Its purpose is so that you can teleport into or out of a moving vehicle, or (assuming you have enough distance) from one side of the planet to the other, without having to worry about velocity.  If -- and this is a very big if -- I as GM were to allow something like this under the Absolute Effect rule, you would need to buy a whole lot more than 1m of Teleport (trying to do it with 1m is not just cheese, it's Velveeta on Wonder Bread government warehouse cheese).  To take advantage of Absolute Effect you have to build to the biggest general value of whatever absolute you're working on.  Depending on the highest possible attack, you might be looking at 28" or 56m, which means I'm going to make you buy that much Teleport.  And at that point you're better off just buying 56m of Knockback Resistance.

[Lucius]

As built, the No Velocity Teleport example would not be an automatic defense vs. Knockback since it would require at least a Half Phase Action to use.  IF a Variable Trigger Advantage and a Safe Blind Teleport Adder were added I think the Active and Real Costs would be at a threshold that would at least merit the discussion of designating this as a legal 'Absolute Effect'.  Of course an appropriate SFX that doesn't step on any other character's Schtick would be preferable as well.

Why Safe Blind Teleport?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Safe bl nd pal ndromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Why Safe Blind Teleport?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Safe bl nd pal ndromedary

 

Imagine if another character performs a Move Through versus a character with this ability.  The ability removes any velocity imparted TO the character but doesn't do anything to slow down the character performing the Move-Through.  If the Move Through was performed with the intent of ending their movement 1 to 2 meters beyond the current position of the target (a viable declaration similar to 'punching through a target') then the possibility exists for the Teleport build to attempt to put the owner in the same space as the attacker!  Safe Blind is the only way around this that I can figure. It's also a good argument on why more than just 1m of Teleport is probably needed.

[Lucius]

Imagine if another character performs a Move Through versus a character with this ability.  The ability removes any velocity imparted TO the character but doesn't do anything to slow down the character performing the Move-Through.  If the Move Through was performed with the intent of ending their movement 1 to 2 meters beyond the current position of the target (a viable declaration similar to 'punching through a target') then the possibility exists for the Teleport build to attempt to put the owner in the same space as the attacker!  Safe Blind is the only way around this that I can figure. It's also a good argument on why more than just 1m of Teleport is probably needed.

Okay, I had to think about that one but I see what you mean now.

 

But we've come a long way from helping someone build the ability to hover.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's my fault

[Chris Goodwin]

Only To Hover would probably be -1.  I'd require more than 1m, because of gravity and because of advantage stacking.  10 points for 5" or 10m ought to do it (that's also the 4th edition minimum cost for Flight, and advantage stacking is making me look hard at bringing those back in my games).  

[Mister E]

Suspension Of Disbelief: Telekinesis (10 STR) (15 active pts); No Range (-1/2), Only Works On Self (-1), Affects Whole Object (Only To Stay Up In The Air; -1). Total cost: 4 pts.

 

Once aloft the character can use an attack action & spend 1 END to stay there.

 

While suspended the character is unable to move in any way.

 

If used to catch the character while falling subtract 2d6 (1d6 per 5 STR) from the sudden stop damage.

[Chris Goodwin]

Telekinesis doesn't work on self.  

 

Hover:  10m Flight (10 Active Points), Only To Hover (-1).  Real cost: 5 points. 

[tripthicket]

As the guy who instigated this whole thing, I should throw in another 2 cents of clarification. My concept/vision is that SuperCharacter uses Teleport as his only means of movement (aside from the normal Running, Leaping, Swimming). Let's throw out an example of what I'm trying to achieve: Badguy is hovering in the air, about 30 feet up, and 30 feet away from SuperCharacter. SuperCharacter has enough Teleport to get to the hex right in front of Badguy (30 feet in the air) as a Half-Move, then he attacks, perhaps with surprise bonuses, perhaps not. I envision SuperCharacter staying in exactly the spot he Teleported to, not having the capability of his own volition to move left, right, up, down, back or forward -- via Flight. In most cases, yeah, standing on air, but definitely not walking on air.

 

Turning on Flight, Usable As Hover Only is a zero-phase action, happening at the beginning of a Phase (and do please correct me at any point; I'm a returning veteran who's very rusty and am finding myself a little thrown by that and some of the changes in 6E). SuperCharacter then Teleports to his desired location (that he can see, that it's safe to be in, and that he can reasonably be assured that he'll arrive at). Assuming he gets to where he wants to be, the Flight/Hover is still in use, so SuperCharacter doesn't fall. He stays where he put himself until he chooses to move to another location. Buying enough Flight to counter-act Knockback might be the way to go(6E1 117); the purchase of Knockback Resistance might be in order.

 

I always find myself thinking in absolutes, which harms my character creation, especially since I create most of my characters in a vacuum. 'The Flight/Hover and associated powers/tricks always work to make sure he's rooted to the spot he intended to arrive at.' But then there's Knockback, being knocked unconscious, Drains and the like, all conspiring to mess up my plans.

 

It may be that the best solution is to just buy several points' worth of Flight, limit it to Hover and resisting KB only, and call it it a day as an imperfect power. With sufficient force, he can be knocked down from his perch, Fall according to the normal rules, and save himself or not. This power ( and all powers) should be built to work as intended, and should have ways in which it will fail its intended purpose. Note that I don't think it's necessary for any reason I can think of to Link this Flight to his Teleport (however much of that he ends up buying); the two powers could be and are used separately as the need arises, or used together when necessary.

 

Thanks for the discussion! You all have helped to clarify what I might have been thinking, as well as clarifying a few things and giving me new ideas.

[Mister E]

Teleport 60m, Usable As Flight 60m (+1/4). 75 pts.

 

Psych Comp: Can Only Hover & Resist KB w/ Flight (Common, Total): 20 pts.

[Lucius]

(Total: 90 Active Cost, 90 Real Cost) Teleportation 60m, No Gravity Penalty (+1/2) (90 Active Points) (Real Cost: 90)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says you can always teleport, but you can't tell it much.

[dmjalund]

teleport has a gravity penalty?

[Lucius]

teleport has a gravity penalty?

If you teleport to a place where your weight is unsupported and you start to fall, that strikes me as a significant penalty.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No palindromedary penalty

[tripthicket]

If you teleport to a place where your weight is unsupported and you start to fall, that strikes me as a significant penalty.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No palindromedary penalty

 

Nah, that's not a bug; it's a feature!

[bigbywolfe]

Smart Alec responses aside, I don't believe Teleport has the Gravity Penalty that Flight has so that Advantage would be worthless. You also can't use gravity to increase the distance of your Teleport when going down.