Shields at 40%! Or why we do not need Star Trek shields

[Christopher]

How to make Star Trek like shields in comes up in quite often. Both for spaceships and for characters. People quickly learn it is not as easy as it sounds.

I think this is not an issue with HERO however. I think it is an issue with trying to copy something from another medium too exactly. Compounded by machinery generally having Stun damage immunity in HERO.

 

There are a few ways to do it, but all of them have caveeats:

 - Ablative is only designed for armor that repairs about as often as charges recover. Shields need to regenerate a lot faster

 - Force Wall works like the most direct translation. But quickly get's expensive as you need stuff like one-sided transparency or indirect to use your own weapons. Not to mention you need to account for regeneration and somebody just re-using the power.

 - one of the APG adds "damage based endurance cost". If you combine that with a dedicated shield-only Endurance Reserve you get a pretty good translation. However unlike 5E, 6E End Reserve is quite expensive. It is like a more detailed verson of charges or no Endurance cost.

 

I believe in order to translate anything from one system to another - or even stuff from other works of fiction into a game - we need to understand why it works the way it does. For example D&D saving throws do not need to be copied from D&D to HERO because Hero lacks the designflaw they are are designed to adress - armor does not reduce damage in D&D.

 

So:

Why are shields working as sort of ablative, regenerating energy armor with percentile values in Star Trek and practicaly every computer game that has them? What are shields purpose?

 

Answer:

To build a dramatically tense situation, without permanent damage. We don't need to know how much energy the shields can resist or how much the energy an enemy attack projects. We don't even need to know the physics of the shields.

If an attack (salvo) leads to shields falling from 100% to 40% that is bad!

100% to 80% in a few minutes? There has been worse.

 

 

I believe HERO does not need ablating shields to create the same "dramatic tension". We already have something much better - Stun damage. Make shields something that costs endurance or at least non-knockout to be kept active. And your stun suddenly works like your Shield percentage.

Lossing stun, how much stun you loose and how close you get to loosing body already builds all the tension you need. 5-10 Stun past shield and armor is not much. 30 on the other hand sounds like serious trouble.

The only issue is that most machine like stuff in HERO (inlcuding vehciles, robots and many undead writeups) are build with "takes no stun". We just need to stop doing that. Keep "can not be stunned" around isntead. Give it extra stun equal to how many CP have been invested in body. And you should get somewhere quite interesting.

 

So, what do you think of this idea?

[L. Marcus]

I'd prefer a Resistant Defense, built with a Costs END When Reducing Damage Limitation (-1/4), coupled to a slowly regenerating END Reserve. When the Reserve is empty, the shields are down.

 

I don't know how closely this mimics Trek in its various incarnations, but it's a clean build.

[megaplayboy]

Wait, won't Barrier cover that pretty well? As the Barrier loses body, the "shields" weaken.

[Christopher]

Wait, won't Barrier cover that pretty well? As the Barrier loses body, the "shields" weaken.

Cover the mechanical simulation well? As said, Barrier does that.

Doing the same thing at a reasonablle CP price? And resonable complexity? Nope. Not even close.

[massey]

I mentioned a similar idea in this thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91314-any-hero-writeups-for-star-trek-ships/

 

So yeah I think it's a great idea.

 

Edit:  So you don't have to go searching, I suggested just building Star Trek ships as a regular character.  "Shields" equals Stun.  As long as you're conscious, you've got your Force Field up that prevents Body damage.  If you get knocked unconscious ("All systems are offline, Captain!") then you've just got your base PD and ED, and at that point the enemy can put Body on you and blow up your ship.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Resistant defense/barrier on Charges.

 

Every time it deflects an attack, remove a charge. After so many hits the charges are completely depleted and the shields are at "0%" till the charges recover.

 

A layered approach can be taken here if you want that much detal.

 

Your ship could have 3 layers of Barrier, each with a resistant defense of 10 and 20 charges each. If an attack did less than 10 body, it would only damage the first layer. More than 10 but less than 20 dammages 2 layers. More than 20 damages all three layers. More than 40 body damages the ships hull. (10 res def armor)

 

This requires more bookeeping, but would allow for partially damaged shields which still gives some protection, but takes a pretty good beating before going down completely.

 

For my game, I dont do layers, just one unified force field defense, to which I apply charges so it will go down eventually.

 

Also, I use Force Field/resistant defense, not Force Wall/Barrier so that stun damage penetrates the force field and on a crew hit location roll, the stun damage penetrates to hit the crew members (representing concussion, debris and shrapnel hitting the crew members)

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

This reminds me of the 'can of whoop-ass' situation, but hey.

 

"What do shields do?"  In SF, they keep the ship from taking BODY but regenerate quickly.  Since this is an 'all the same universe' sort of thing, define the damage done to shields as being 'non-penetrative' - meaning they don't penetrate the ship itself and damage its parts - and then ...

 

+100 BODY (100 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4): 40 points

Regeneration (5 BODY per Turn) (80 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only Regenerates Shield Damage (-1/2): 27 points.

[BlueCloud2k2]

This reminds me of the 'can of whoop-ass' situation, but hey.

 

"What do shields do?"  In SF, they keep the ship from taking BODY but regenerate quickly.  Since this is an 'all the same universe' sort of thing, define the damage done to shields as being 'non-penetrative' - meaning they don't penetrate the ship itself and damage its parts - and then ...

 

+100 BODY (100 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4): 40 points

Regeneration (5 BODY per Turn) (80 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only Regenerates Shield Damage (-1/2): 27 points.

 

I would include some rED tied into that power... so when the BODY counter reaches 0, the Sheild fails.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

You certainly could, and when you get down to it, I really don't see the issue with not doing so; a basic 'x-point' Force Field (simply defined as Resistant Protection) would work.  If you want to complicate it slightly, give it a -1 Disad of 'Total Defense Per Phase' (or per Segment), meaning that coordinated attacks are going to get through the 'we could defend against this all day' part and start really hitting the 'percentage' part of the shield.  Then link it, so that if the BODY goes down to 0, this shield goes down as well.  (And this being part of the ship's systems, it simply does not require a 'force wall' length and everything; it already functionally IS a force wall, personalized, because vehicles don't take STUN.)

 

When that Body boost - which is defined as the ship's shields - hit 0, then the shields are, by definition, down.  Oh, the system is trying to regenerate them, 5% max value every 12 seconds, but if the Romulan's 3d6 ship-scale RKA ('ship-scale' being defined as different than personal scale, or perhaps there's several different scales, as in Star Wars) is hammering at the Enterprise's shields (while Chekov / Worf is firing back) then if you're lucky, they won't do enough damage, or they'll miss, or maybe you have better shields or better shield-regeneration technology, and you can shrug it off because they just ain't doin' enough over the turn for you to worry about.  To be honest, there should be several people involved in retuning / rebuilding the shields, but let's say it's just 2, giving us another -1/4, bringing it down to 25 points - which means for every point of shield regeneration per 12 seconds, you spend 5 vehicle points, or one character point.

 

Backup shields?  Sure, more BODY, and another regeneration that takes longer (per minute).  Or whatever.  Point is, look at what it does (prevent the main ship from taking damage) and work off that.

[Christopher]

I think I just stumbeled over a solution for the "how does the crew affect the use of the ships abilities?" problem.

The still Alpha game Star Command Galaxies (Captain Kirk Simulator) might hold the solution. The energy system works like this:

You have a battery (the End part of an endurance reserve). Exampels ships have 20.
You have reactors (the Rec part of an endurance Reserve). Example ships have around +2 or so.

Low consumption devices drain reactor power (Recovery) directly. Stuff like teh TV and the kitchen. That is already figured into above figure of energy recovery.

 

High consumption devices (weapon, teleporter, shield healing, ftl) instead drain directly from the Endurance reserve. So the more you use them, the more you have to wait for recovery.

 

Without crew they drain a lot. FTL is the whammy with 20 endurance. With crew it cost 10.

The others cost -5 endurance less with crew, with the cost being between 14 and 10 depending on system.

 

Adapting that to Hero:

Add extra endurance cost to ship powers. Buy naked buyoffs covering those limitations. Maybe also naked reduced Endurance Advantages.

Now limit those End cost savers to need skilled crew to operate.

[Vondy]

What about using Deflection?

 

They are deflector shields, after all.

 

And, even with the shields up, the ship does take some damage from concussion and circuit overload.

 

And, multiple attacks do reduce the deflection roll by -2 per attack.

 

You might have to play with the exact application of the -2 to make it work, but its there.

 

So, "shields at 40%" could just mean, "holy crap, our next deflection roll is 8-"

 

But, as you say, ablative shields aren't necessary system-wise for dramatic tension.

 

In fact, mechanics aren't the best method of building dramatic tension irrespective of what they are.

 

Its a question of story, circumstance, and player investment.

[Ninja-Bear]

The easiest would be force field with ablative use the option where you reduce the PD/ED and have AID to force field. Scotty I need more power!

[Christopher]

The easiest would be force field with ablative use the option where you reduce the PD/ED and have AID to force field. Scotty I need more power!

Except the whole idea here is to discuss how we can do them without havng to slavishly copy the mechanic from another medium (movie or game). Doing so often creates a sub-par result, with excessive cost and/or complexity.

 

We already have very well existing ways to produce "dramatic tension", we don't need to copy another mediums ones.

[Ninja-Bear]

Who said about slavish devotion? You said that the force field with ablative was unusable because of the rules which Im pointing out isn't the case and is the cleanest.

[Scott Baker]

Who said about slavish devotion? You said that the force field with ablative was unusable because of the rules which Im pointing out isn't the case and is the cleanest.

 

Well, he did say something about it in the original post...

 

I think this is not an issue with HERO however. I think it is an issue with trying to copy something from another medium too exactly.

 

 

That doesn't mean there aren't multiple ways to do things of course.

[Ninja-Bear]

Scott Bakwr I reread Christooher's original post and i'm still confused. He claims that force field or armor with ablative is clunky but then wants to change it with Stun mechanic? To give a ship a stun value am I understanding that correctly? Plus he states you really don't need to know what value a shield would be, huh? Perhaps there are some players that wouldn't mind not knowing what strength their shields are but I would say that it would be a small minority. And if he uses a Stun characteristic, he still needs ti know starting values and such unless I fear the term dramatic tension is GM arbitration which players generally don't like.

[Scott Baker]

Scott Bakwr I reread Christooher's original post and i'm still confused. He claims that force field or armor with ablative is clunky but then wants to change it with Stun mechanic? To give a ship a stun value am I understanding that correctly? Plus he states you really don't need to know what value a shield would be, huh? Perhaps there are some players that wouldn't mind not knowing what strength their shields are but I would say that it would be a small minority. And if he uses a Stun characteristic, he still needs ti know starting values and such unless I fear the term dramatic tension is GM arbitration which players generally don't like.

I was only noting that Christopher did state his position about copying things (i.e., mechanics) too closely (from his perspective). I was not judging the correctness of anyone's interpretation of how they want to build shields.

[Christopher]

Scott Bakwr I reread Christooher's original post and i'm still confused. He claims that force field or armor with ablative is clunky but then wants to change it with Stun mechanic? To give a ship a stun value am I understanding that correctly? Plus he states you really don't need to know what value a shield would be, huh? Perhaps there are some players that wouldn't mind not knowing what strength their shields are but I would say that it would be a small minority. And if he uses a Stun characteristic, he still needs ti know starting values and such unless I fear the term dramatic tension is GM arbitration which players generally don't like.

The whole thing about "shield strenght" was implemented to give dramatic tension for Videogames, Books and Television/Movies.

And actually it is a new development. The Star Trek TOS and it's Films had not yet thought about even giving precent values. Interestingly enough the one crossover movie (generations) they too avoided mentioning shield strenght at all.

 

At the same time if we have a known Stun value for the vehicle (of course not a secret one!), we got dramatic tension right there. The same dramatic tension a single superhero with a "Force Field" has in a superbrawl.

[Spence]

All great ideas and I can see how they would work well for people. 

 

But for me I like to build ships as ships, not characters.  There is just something in the "feel" during play for me.  Ships as characters just doesn't "work" for me.   Can't explain why.  They just don't. 

 

For Star Trek I use Steve's Space Dock and Expansions to build Star Trek ships.  Somewhere I had a hero conversion (4th Ed) for it.  But since I cannot find it I think it was lost in the "Great Hard-drive Crash of '02". 

 

But the old Star Trek RPG by Last Unicorn Games was IMO, the only Trek RPG that really captured the "feel" of Star Trek.  That elusive blend of rule mechanics and style that makes a RPG.  The why D&D just works for High Fantasy or the why Champions just plays better (for me) than M&M or ICONS. 

 

Fantastic game and sorely missed.

 

But on subject, Spacedock is highly recommended.  Even if just to use as a mine for Techno-Babble

 

I've got a few RPG one-shot to prep for my FLGS, a Halloween Party and the upcoming OrcaCon.  When that is done I may try to replicate my SpaceDock conversion for 6th Ed.  Hmmm.....   Sunday morning inspiration?  Maybe

[NuSoardGraphite]

Well what happens cinematically when the ship is hit and the shields absorb damage?

 

If the attack is weak, oftentimes the shields will completely deflect the attack with little damage.

 

If the attack is strong, the shields will deflect much of the damage, but sometimes energy will penetrate the sheilds and do minor damage to the ships hull.

 

If the attack is overwhelming, the attack will bllow throuvh the sheildz to deliver some of its energy to the hull.

 

If the sheilds go down completely (0%) then direct attacks will he devastating, delivering much of their energy directly to the hull.

 

So the sheilds dont completely protect the ship from powerful attacks....energy can penetrate the sheilds without being rendered to 0%.

 

What sheilds seem to do is cut some of the energy from attacks....enough to allow thenarmored hull to resist the damage.

 

To me, this can be resistant defense on activation, or it can be Damage reduction on charges. I prefer resistant defenses on charges. They seem to work pretty well to simulate this kind of situation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

This reminds me of the 'can of whoop-ass' situation, but hey.

 

"What do shields do?" In SF, they keep the ship from taking BODY but regenerate quickly. Since this is an 'all the same universe' sort of thing, define the damage done to shields as being 'non-penetrative' - meaning they don't penetrate the ship itself and damage its parts - and then ...

 

+100 BODY (100 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4): 40 points

Regeneration (5 BODY per Turn) (80 Active Points); OIF Bulky (-1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Only Regenerates Shield Damage (-1/2): 27 points.

So are we just going to make a campaign rule that this "Body" is above the inherent and resistent Defense of the starship, because otherwise this Body gets the benefit of the ships Armor as well.

 

That argument aside, this would be an excellent way of doing the shield percentage thing.

 

I personally like hits that can penetrate a force field and do hull damage. With a system like this, I would have Critical Hits do their full damage to thenForce Field, then apply half the damage to the Defense and Hull of the ship.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, you just solved the issue that was being talked about after I originally posted that: 'what about too-weak shots that don't take the shields down at all?'  Those would (presumably) be taken care of by the ship's basic DEF.

 

Thing is, though, that ships in Star Trek don't have armor.  Basic DEF from being a tritanium-whatever hull, sure, but they don't have armor, ablative or otherwise; get through the shield, and so long as you can damage the hull, hey, you're blowing holes in the ship.  (In Star Wars, they have deflector shields, sure, but they also have armoring; this is one of the reasons why flying a craptastic TIE fighter is basically signing up for the Suicide Squad - barely any deflectors, no fraggin' armor at all.)

 

However, what you're discussing, really, is a matter of 'appearance' and not 'function'.  HERO's #3 rule is 'build what it does, not what it looks like'.  Q.E.D.

[Tasha]

I would say that all starships have some built in armor, as part of the structure of the ship. So to say that because hits when shields are down cause damage is like saying that Modern Warships lack armor because shells and torpedos damage the hull and blow holes in it. Armor tends to lessen damage. It's rare for it to totally deflect all damage. Because weapon tech tends to be better than defensive tech.

 

Early Fed Starships DID have armor beyond the basic structure of the ship. (ie NX-01 had energized hull plating)

[dgulledge]

I believe in order to translate anything from one system to another - or even stuff from other works of fiction into a game - we need to understand why it works the way it does. For example D&D saving throws do not need to be copied from D&D to HERO because Hero lacks the designflaw they are are designed to adress - armor does not reduce damage in D&D.

 

I have a couple of notebooks full of stuff converted from AD&D to Champions back in the days before Fantasy Hero.  I tried much too hard to match the exact behavior of each spell.  That was a serious mistake.  The points were telling me that what I was creating was extremely poorly balanced.

 

What you want to do is first determine which features you want to convert.  You're right that the capabilities of the shields need to be expressed relative to the existing rules for damage and defenses in Star Hero.  Design to give your campaign the feel you want first.  Once you know how you want the tech to feel, make the mechanics serve that feel.

[Nolgroth]

I have a couple of notebooks full of stuff converted from AD&D to Champions back in the days before Fantasy Hero.  I tried much too hard to match the exact behavior of each spell.  That was a serious mistake.  The points were telling me that what I was creating was extremely poorly balanced.

 

What you want to do is first determine which features you want to convert.  You're right that the capabilities of the shields need to be expressed relative to the existing rules for damage and defenses in Star Hero.  Design to give your campaign the feel you want first.  Once you know how you want the tech to feel, make the mechanics serve that feel.

 

Sometimes. Many times Hero is way too expensive for some simple effects. A Light spell, lantern or flashlight, is way too expensive to model using the official Images, Only to Create Light methodology. Some of us have just gone to using a variant of Enhanced Perception (Normal Sight), Only to offset penalties from Darkness. It is cheaper and does pretty much the same thing. It is the danger of a cost system. Not all the costs are weighted in the same way that I or somebody else would have them. Ever seen the arguments (especially in 5th Edition or lower) about the relative cost of Characteristics? 

 

Your second statement is spot on with any point buy system.