Long-Term STUN

[bigdamnhero]

One thing about HERO combat that doesn't match well with either reality or most genre conventions is that no matter how badly you get beat up, a few Turns of rest is typically enough to bring you back up to full Stun. But anyone who's been in a boxing ring knows you don't go into Round 8 with the same Stun total you started the fight with, Long-Term Endurance notwithstanding. Now most RPG battles (IMX) don't last long enough for this to be a factor. But for epic battles (Superman vs Doomsday) or a long series of running fights (any Hero vs. Series Of Mooks) it would be nice to have some way to reflect some sort of cumulative STUN damage. So I'm thinking of trying out the following, or something like it. Thoughts? Suggestions? Similar ideas you've tried?

 

 

Long-Term Stun (LTS)

 

Generally, a Turn or two of rest is enough for most characters to fully recover all their Stun damage. For some longer battles, the GM may wish to keep track of Long-Term Stun to reflect characters gradually getting worn down and “punch drunk” from the cumulative effect of repeated hits.

 

Long-Term Stun works similarly to Long-Term Endurance. A character’s LTS score starts out the same as their Stun score, and is reduced as follows:

• If a character takes Stun damage (after defenses) that exceeds their REC, they mark down 1 LTS for every x1 REC (ie – 1 at REC x1, 2 at REC x2, etc).
• If a character is Stunned, they mark down 2 LTS.
• If a character is Knocked Out, they mark down 4 LTS.
• The above effects are cumulative.
• Example: A character with 10 REC and 18 CON is hit for 22 Stun after defenses; in addition to the regular Stun damage, the character marks down 4 LTS (2 from x2 REC, +2 from being Stunned). If the character was also Knocked Out by that shot, they would take a total of 8 LTS.  

 

A character’s Stun cannot exceed their LTS; so when a character has lost LTS, it limits how much Stun they can Recover normally. A character Recovers their REC in LTS for every five hours of rest. If they do not or cannot rest, they only Recover their REC in LTS once per day. However, a successful Paramedic Roll can restore 1 LTS for every point of success, up to half the LTS sustained.

 

Healing Powers can typically restore LTS as well as regular Stun (unless sfx would indicate differently). Healing LTS costs twice as much as regular Stun (+1 LTS for every 2 point of effect), and can be done in conjunction with Healing the character’s Stun.

Example: A Character has taken 18 Stun and 5 points of LTS. They then receive 21 points of Healing from an ally. The first 13 points of effect restores 13 Stun as normal. The next 6 points restore 2 LTS and 2 Stun. The remaining 2 point of effect restores 1 point of LTS, but no additional Stun, leaving the character down 2 LTS and 3 Stun.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I've toyed with this diea before.  A simple tweak I used in Fantasy Hero was that for each point of body you are below max, you lose 1 max stun.  Until that body heals up, you just can't take as much punishment.  But in a really gritty, realistic setting stuff like this (and others such as roll mods for damage like -1 for every half body you sustain) are options that really crank up the believability.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

This ... is not a bad way of doing it.  If one shot both Stunned and KO'd you, though ... hm.  I think I'd make Stunned +2, KO'd +2, cumulative.

[mhd]

This looks quite interesting. I actually toyed with the third "leg" of this, i.e. "short term" BODY. Wounds that can kill you, but that you'll recover more easily from (blood loss, shock etc.).

[massey]

We made a house rule about Stun loss causing Body damage.  For every 50 Stun you take past defenses (in one blow), you lose a Body.  A Superman/Doomsday type fight would theoretically involve them gradually whittling their Body scores down.  Theoretically, they're taking enough Recoveries to stay conscious, but the Body damage piles up.

 

Alternatively, maybe in those world-threatening circumstances, you could burn Body to give you more Stun.  It would be similar to using Stun as Endurance.  When you're out of End, for every 2 you spend you take a D6 Stun (or something like that, no book in front of me).  Why not let someone stay conscious by using Body?  You take a D6 Body damage and get 20 Stun back.

[procyon]

Yeah I've toyed with this diea before.  A simple tweak I used in Fantasy Hero was that for each point of body you are below max, you lose 1 max stun.  Until that body heals up, you just can't take as much punishment.  But in a really gritty, realistic setting stuff like this (and others such as roll mods for damage like -1 for every half body you sustain) are options that really crank up the believability.

I like the LTS idea.  We have used it once (sort of) in a short game I ran, and it worked pretty much like this.

The only difference was that each body would reduce max stun by 2.  This wasn't assessed until after a combat, so the 1 stun per body damage minimum rule wasn't an issue.

But the 'sore, bruised' issues that set in after the fact were what we were looking at.

[Christopher]

I thought about something like this for a Bleach/Dragonball style game.

My solution however was to just make Long Term End loss work less long term. Instead of average over minutes it would use average over turns.

Pushing directly cost you LTE. You aditionally could limit your powers to also cost LTE (an extra level of increased endurace cost).

I never got to actually test it however. It just looked and sounded good in my imagination.

 

I don't think applying this mechanic to STUN is a good idea.

Stun is already a passive stat. Except in the rare cases you are at 0 END, burning stun instead. All that realy acomplishes is characters being Knocked out earlier. And recovering from being knocked out harder. Inactivity and counting time until recovery is not something players tend to like.

Endurance in turn is an active stat. You use it to fuel your actions.You have to actively choose (to some degree) to use it up and even to incur LTE loss.

 

Also note that there already is a mechanic that ties Body loss/damage taken to stun loss. The optional bleeding rules (not to be mistaken with the core "Bleeding to death" rule) gives you per-turn normal damage based on how much body you lost.

[bigdamnhero]

Results of playtest Round 1:

 

We wound up dropping/ignoring the 1 LTS from taking STUN > REC, and just using 2 LTS for getting Stunned, +2 for getting KOd. So basically there are no long-term effects of "normal" hits, just from when you really get your bell rung. I think that works better both conceptually and mechanically.

 

In practice, the way we applied it was after each battle: "If you got stunned mark 2 points off your max STUN, if you got KOd, knock off 2 more." It basically worked like a Drain with a longer recovery time.

 

After the first 2 battles, a couple PCs were down 2-6 LTS. The players seemed to like it. The fact that they didn't start each new battle fresh as a daisy helped lend weight to the situation. I definitely noticed more dodging & blocking in the 2nd fight. At the same time because they were only down a handful of points, it wasn't too big a handicap. And it gave the folks with Paramedics Skill something to do besides stopping bleeding.

[bigdamnhero]

I don't think applying this mechanic to STUN is a good idea.

Stun is already a passive stat. Except in the rare cases you are at 0 END, burning stun instead. All that realy acomplishes is characters being Knocked out earlier. And recovering from being knocked out harder. Inactivity and counting time until recovery is not something players tend to like.

Endurance in turn is an active stat. You use it to fuel your actions.You have to actively choose (to some degree) to use it up and even to incur LTE loss.

Fair point about active vs passive stats. The one "active" impact it had on the playtest was that it seemed like players were dodging & blocking more the 2nd go-around. I think it mostly added color, knowing that at least a little bit of STUN doesn't automatically come back at the end of every round of fighting.

 

Definitely not for everyone/everygame.

 

Also note that there already is a mechanic that ties Body loss/damage taken to stun loss. The optional bleeding rules (not to be mistaken with the core "Bleeding to death" rule) gives you per-turn normal damage based on how much body you lost.

True, but in superheroic games where a lot of Body damage is fairly uncommon, that doesn't come into play much. Even blunt trauma adds up over time.

[Christopher R Taylor]

We wound up dropping/ignoring the 1 LTS from taking STUN > REC, and just using 2 LTS for getting Stunned, +2 for getting KOd. So basically there are no long-term effects of "normal" hits, just from when you really get your bell rung. I think that works better both conceptually and mechanically.

 

 

This is a good way to do it, much easier mechanically and to keep track of.  Rules work best when they are very simple to remember, I find.

[LouGoncey]

A different way to do this:

 

No post 12 recoveries.

A recovery action takes a whole turn to do.

 

Just spit balling...

[Steve Long]

While I don't necessarily agree with all of your reasoning, it's funny you should post this now. I've been fiddling with something along these lines myself, but with a different goal in mind:  simulating the long-term suffering Hindu spellcasters engage in to acquire the spiritual energy needed to cast spells in the magic system I'm tinkering with for the Hindu Mythology chapter of Mythic Hero. Great minds think alike, soft minds run together.

[Christopher R Taylor]

yeah I had an experimental system in place a while back with a 3 tiered caster concept.  Ordinary wizards use END/Mana for spells; Sorcerer use stun and have more phenomenal but slower spells; necromancers use body.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, this highlights a difference between Hero (Champions) and most RPG's (Supers games).

 

STUN recovers between combats. Pretty much every other game has an "attrition game" as one fight takes away hit points, Health, whatever that often does not recover before the next combat. Hero has no such attrition in many genres and settings, as STUN is the main stat which erodes in combat.

 

This requires attention in translating scenarios from other systems. V&V, for example, often had "team against one opponent" battles, which worked there as characters would lose some hit points that stayed lost for the next battle. I found Hero conversion often needed to include converting a series of "team vs 1 guy" combats into "team vs team".

[Nolgroth]

I like this idea, specifically the Stunned/Knocked Out variant. I would go so far as to add Impairing/Disabling wounds adding even more LTS damage. Perhaps a +3 and +4 respectively. I'm hobbling around on a sprained ankle right now and it hurts whenever I have to flex the wrong way or once when I used my foot to hold back my dog from getting into some broken glass.

 

I am so going to use this for my Epic Everyman campaign that I am starting to (re)develop. Thank you for posting this cool idea. 

[Hyper-Man]

I learned something new from this thread.

 

I always assumed that loss of BODY was also permanent loss of STUN until the BODY was recovered.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its not a bad way to run a gritty, more realistic campaign.

[bigdamnhero]

No post 12 recoveries.

A recovery action takes a whole turn to do.

Either way, you're essentially back to full Stun as soon as you drop out of Combat Time to Noncombat Time. I'm less concerned with recovery during combat than with recovery between combats.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with all of your reasoning, it's funny you should post this now. I've been fiddling with something along these lines myself, but with a different goal in mind:  simulating the long-term suffering Hindu spellcasters engage in to acquire the spiritual energy needed to cast spells in the magic system I'm tinkering with for the Hindu Mythology chapter of Mythic Hero. Great minds think alike, soft minds run together.

Neat idea! I've used LTE for this for some magic systems, and I've seen Stun used for others, bu never thought of it as long-Term Stun.

 

STUN recovers between combats. Pretty much every other game has an "attrition game" as one fight takes away hit points, Health, whatever that often does not recover before the next combat. Hero has no such attrition in many genres and settings, as STUN is the main stat which erodes in combat.

Exactly. I don't normally like the Death-By-A-Thousand-Cuts Hit Point model, but there are a few situations where the PCs shouldn't start Combat #5 as fresh as they started Combat #1.

 

I would go so far as to add Impairing/Disabling wounds adding even more LTS damage.

I hadn't thought of that, as my current game isn't using those rules. But it makes sense.

 

I learned something new from this thread.

 

I always assumed that loss of BODY was also permanent loss of STUN until the BODY was recovered.

Glad I could further your education! And that would make a nice House Rule for gritty games.

[massey]

Perhaps an attack that Stuns an opponent then rolls a hit location.  That location then takes a lesser form of a disabling hit.

[Heroic Halfwit]

I learned something new from this thread.

 

I always assumed that loss of BODY was also permanent loss of STUN until the BODY was recovered.

 

That's the way I remember it from when I started back in the 80's.  But that may have been a house rule/misreading of RAW.

 

The -2 per Stunned -2 per KO is something I might try.  It has the additional benefit, IMHO, of encouraging people to purchase Stun and Body rather than relying so heavily on PD/ED.  In all too many games, I see a lot of uniformity i.e. everyone has a 12DC attack, 25-30 rpd/red, speed 5-6, etc. etc.  Long Term Stun may provide the additional incentive for players, especially tanky types to invest in Stun.

 

Then again maybe not.