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Change Environment to Expose Invisibility?


Surrealone

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In a heroic 5th Ed. game where Invisibility to normal sight is VERY powerful due to lack of other targetting senses, can Change Environment be used to good effect to expose/outline/reveal an invisible opponent?  If so, what are some example power effects that DO NOT involve exposing footprints on the ground (like a powder or fluid might)?

I've come up against a flying opponent with invis ... and have change environment ... but am new to the power and struggling with ideas on how to use it effectively...

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Change Environment can only introduce negative sensory modifiers.  Images can produce positive ones but even that's not the HERO Power to use vs. Invisibility.  Drain and Dispel are the Powers that can be used to directly counter Invisibility*.

 

*A targeting sense not covered by the Invisibility build is an indirect counter.

 

What is the special effect of the character's abilities?  What other Powers does the character have besides Change Environment?

 

This is a good time to remember that the HERO Power name (mechanic) is not the same as the Character Power name (special effect).

Example:  Heat Vision is a Power possessed by Superman.  That only tells you the special effect. What HERO Power is used to build it can vary but usually boils down to either RKA or Blast with various Modifiers.

 

If the character's Change Environment Power is not already part of a Power Framework (Multipower or VPP) you should consider if it can be put in one later with experience.  In the short term you should look at the Power Skill as a 1-use method to use one Power to simulate another Power through a common special effect.

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Hyper-Man:
Thanks for the quick response.  Drain, suppress, and dispel are all at my disposal, as I'm running a low (base) point VPP that's not quite cosmic.  VPP powers are only slightly limited in special effects -- specifically to things involving forces and energy states.  The character basically has control of forces/energy at all levels (i.e. particle, wave, quantum, weak force, strong force, etc.) and can redirect it, convert energy to mass (i.e. build bonds), convert mass to energy (i.e. break bonds), change the vector of a force, etc.  So, it'd be easy to shut down invis by simply redirecting the flow of light so that it does NOT bend around the opponent.

However, I'm specifically looking for an indirect/environmental counter to invisibility -- akin to throwing flour on the floor such that an invis character's footprints are left in it when he traverses it.  (This could be accomplished with change environment by simply ionizing an area to attract more dust to it, for example -- or a cosmetic AE transform on the environment would also cover it, by breaking the bonds of local matter to form a fine dust in the desired area.)  The hard part is that the opponent is flying (or possibly clinging; not sure, as I can't see it), so I need a three dimensional indirect/environmental solution​ -- like a mist, dense air/gel that would expose movement through it (like walking through coloured water), etc.

I DO NOT want to counter the opponent's invis -- I simply want to cause the opponent's passage to be obviated (while leaving the opponent invisible).  Images are an option that might fit the bill, as the character can certainly manipulate energy to produce them, but this should be a passive thing (I might need to slap a trigger on it for that).

What were you thinking as it pertained to images?  Any other ideas?

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What you are describing sounds like the Fringe Effect of Invisibility.

 

From 6e1 page 240:
 

Fringe
An Invisible character has a “fringe” around himself. Other characters may perceive the Fringe with a normal PER Roll with the affected Sense at a range of 2m or less. Invisibility can have No Fringe for an Adder, or a Fringe that’s even easier to perceive for a Limitation (see below).

The form a Fringe takes depends on the special effects of the Invisibility. It could be the literal fringe where light bends around the character, the character’s glowing eyes, the fact that the character still casts a faint shadow, or anything similar that the GM permits.

 

 

See this old 5e thread discussion on how to convert the D&D3.x version of Glitterdust into HERO rules:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/49878-sorcerorwizard-35-spell-conversion/?hl=glitterdust

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If you playing one of the PC's in this scenario I would encourage talking this through with your GM since your character seems to have the available power set to accomplish what you are trying to do.  You may be going up against a character with some manner of 'plot immunity' that could be causing frustration for both of you.

 

There's a reason that many GM's of superhero games hate superman-like player characters.  Writing X-Ray vision proof stories can be a real PITA!.

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Change Environment can only introduce negative sensory modifiers.

True by Rules As Written. But I've sometimes seen CE used to provide a bonus to PER in an area (GM permitting), so I don't know why you couldn't do something similar here. Maybe increasing the range at which the invisible character's fringe can be perceived?

 

I suppose the book-legal way to do that would be some sort of Enhanced Perception, UBO, but it's such a relatively minor effect I think it'd be appropriate for CE. Obviously you'll need GM approval.

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I'd always understood that you could just as easily toss the flour into the air, and if the invisible opponent walks through it then the flour clings to them/moves accordingly.

 

So, a bunch of sand in air would hamper your visibility but reveal them at short range.

Exactly. Cleaver use if change enviroment can reveal an outline of an invisible opponent. It wouldn't give you more info than that though.

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What you're looking at here, Surrealone, is the interaction between the Invisible character's special effect and yours.  It is perfectly book legal for Change Environment to reveal a character who is Invisible.  It will rely on the special effects, however.  If you've got Change Environment: Big Bag of Flour, and the other guy has Invisibility as a formula he ingests like the original Invisible Man (where he's got to take his clothes off), then the special effect of your power should make him visible.  However, someone like the Invisible Woman from Marvel, who can turn all kind of crap invisible, won't be bothered by being covered in flour.  The flour will just turn invisible as well, because that's how her powers work.  At most I think you'd see her outline until her next action, when she turns the rest of it invisible.

 

It's all in how the power descriptions would logically interact.  You don't have to buy every tiny detail of the power with points, you can describe how it works, and if it makes sense for something to function that way, then it does.

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What you're looking at here, Surrealone, is the interaction between the Invisible character's special effect and yours.  It is perfectly book legal for Change Environment to reveal a character who is Invisible.  It will rely on the special effects, however.  If you've got Change Environment: Big Bag of Flour, and the other guy has Invisibility as a formula he ingests like the original Invisible Man (where he's got to take his clothes off), then the special effect of your power should make him visible.  However, someone like the Invisible Woman from Marvel, who can turn all kind of crap invisible, won't be bothered by being covered in flour.  The flour will just turn invisible as well, because that's how her powers work.  At most I think you'd see her outline until her next action, when she turns the rest of it invisible.

 

It's all in how the power descriptions would logically interact.  You don't have to buy every tiny detail of the power with points, you can describe how it works, and if it makes sense for something to function that way, then it does.

 

 

This is the type of decision that is up to the GM (which is why I suggested talking about this with them up thread). However, from a RAW standpoint it is not correct.  Change Environment will NOT have any effect on Invisibility by default.

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Images giving a bonus to perception, only to enhance the fringe effect of invisibility (-1/2)

 

So inside the area of effect of the "images" power, any invisible character who has no fringe now effectively has a fringe and those who have a fringe are easier to spot (their fringe is "brighter")

 

Thats how I would run it.

 

I also wouldnt have any issue allowing Change Environment to mimick this effect as well.

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I don't get your argument there, its not targeting a detect.  Its targeting the person and illuminating them with the images.  Its forcing them to be the source of the image: a glow

How is it "targeting the person"?  If you can't Detect the character a Power like Image can't magically perceive them either.

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Your problem is that you can't target an invisible person?  That's a separate issue from whether or not images can be used as an attack to outline a target.  The targeting is another power such as a detect or a targeting sense, or an advantage such as Area Effect.  The actual power its self, Images usable as an attack works fine, if you can target the invisible person.

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I can't quote the 8 year old thread since it is archived now but here is the main point from post #35:

 

Say Hologram-Guy is looking for Inviso-Dude. Hologram-Guy can make any image he wants using his Images power. He can make a holographic "car" or he can even make a real car "disapear" (using minuses to PER). However, he cannot counter Inviso-Dude's Invisibility power without also having some type of Enhanced Sense that would allow him to actually perceive Inviso-Dude first. Images is NOT a Enhanced Sense. Rather, it is a Sense Affecting Power just like Invisibility. The 2 are NOT the same thing. Hologram-Guy can certainly create a non-invisible Image of Inviso-Dude, but it will have no way to actually track the real Inviso-Dude's movements unless an applicable Enhanced Sense is used as well.

Having Area of Affect does NOT magically give Images the ability to sense Invisibility.

IF it did a simple flashlight (normally built using Images) would work against Invisibility but it doesn't. Suppress is NOT permanent. It normally stops as soon as END is no longer being paid. Continuing Charges replaces that mechanic. The only permanent way to purge (or dispell) the Invisibility is to actually use the power Dispell (or possibly Drain with a long enough recovery time).

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That was essentially my intended point.

 

I know. :)

 

I made all these arguments before 8 years ago.

 

Folks fall into the 'name-trap' with the Change Environment Power more than just about any other Power in HERO.

 

The name of a Power in HERO does not define how its mechanics work.  That definition is actually written in the rule book.  Why that even needs to be repeated in a forum like this baffles me.

 

Now it is certainly possible that a Player or GM creates a character and creates an Ability named Change Environment that may or may NOT use the actual HERO Power Change Environment.  But that's just a coincidence.  It's like modeling a superhero from the comics who actually refers to his ability to zap bad guys at range with the term "Blast" (instead of "Heat Vision").

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What you're looking at here, Surrealone, is the interaction between the Invisible character's special effect and yours.  It is perfectly book legal for Change Environment to reveal a character who is Invisible.  It will rely on the special effects, however.  If you've got Change Environment: Big Bag of Flour, and the other guy has Invisibility as a formula he ingests like the original Invisible Man (where he's got to take his clothes off), then the special effect of your power should make him visible.  However, someone like the Invisible Woman from Marvel, who can turn all kind of crap invisible, won't be bothered by being covered in flour.  The flour will just turn invisible as well, because that's how her powers work.  At most I think you'd see her outline until her next action, when she turns the rest of it invisible.

 

It's all in how the power descriptions would logically interact.  You don't have to buy every tiny detail of the power with points, you can describe how it works, and if it makes sense for something to function that way, then it does.

 

It's a judgment call to say where the line is between "benefit you get from special effects" and "this should definitely cost points." It might be reasonable to handwave this with "ok, that should work" but that's a call to be made by whoever is running the game.

 

Obviously a lot of people think it needs to be defined as a Power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The confused palindromedary asks if an invisible palindromedary in the middle of an Area Effect Blast is immune to the damage by virtue of being invisible.....

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This is the type of decision that is up to the GM (which is why I suggested talking about this with them up thread). However, from a RAW standpoint it is not correct. Change Environment will NOT have any effect on Invisibility by default.

I lost my post about how in fifth you can affect invisibilty. Howwver Hyperman I feel you are wrong, change enviromemt will work on invisibilty more often than not against invisibilty. Temperature change right now is an effect I can't think of a way to affect the fringe of invisibility.

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This is the type of decision that is up to the GM (which is why I suggested talking about this with them up thread). However, from a RAW standpoint it is not correct.  Change Environment will NOT have any effect on Invisibility by default.

 

I don't think you and I are really disagreeing, much.  Change Environment is a power that requires a lot of GM interpretation.  In my younger days, I thought it was completely useless because of that.

 

CE is not Dispel vs Invisibility.  As I said, the interaction between the two is very special effect dependent.  CE can be "it's raining" or "a dust cloud blows in".  Usually these effects will only affect non-points-paid-for conditions.  Heavy rain may put out a fire, but it won't normally put out Fire Guy's purchased flame wall.  However, in some circumstances, it can work.  CE is useful for taking advantage of someone's -1/4 "not in magnetic fields" limitation.

 

It is perfectly legitimate for CE to reveal someone's Invisibility if the special effects of the powers match up appropriately.  It will not work that way by default.  But the GM deciding how powers interact is within the RAW.  And Hero has always been clear that the special effects of your power can have situational benefits or penalties depending on the circumstances.  They are not completely neutral.

 

It's a judgment call to say where the line is between "benefit you get from special effects" and "this should definitely cost points." It might be reasonable to handwave this with "ok, that should work" but that's a call to be made by whoever is running the game.

 

Obviously a lot of people think it needs to be defined as a Power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Certainly it's situational, which is how I described it.  It is a thing that affects powers on a case by case basis.  Many forms of Invisibility won't be affected by it.  But certainly some may be.

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that's a special effect argument not supported by the mechanics of the rules.

 

Except the game allows for special effects having an actual impact on the game.  While one special effect should not be more powerful than another, the game encourages the GM to allow differences between powers based upon special effect.  A fireblast in a room filled with gas is treated differently than a boxing glove arrow.  This is within the rules.

 

Suppose I'm MuckMan, defender of the swamp.  And one of my powers is a Change Environment.  It covers an area, and gives -5" of Running to anyone within it.  The special effect is that I fill the area so that everyone is knee-deep in mud.  It slows everybody down.  If Bob is invisible, we may see two holes in the mud where his legs are sticking into it.  Now if he's flying, obviously that won't work.  Or if he's standing on a crate.  Or if he jumps up and grabs a tree limb and lifts himself up.  Or if Bob's Invisibility is defined like the old D&D power, where it was mind-affecting and people were magically compelled to not notice you.  If that is the case, they still won't see him.  Change Environment doesn't act as a Power, like Dispel Invisibility would.  It won't always work perfectly, and can be avoided with a little ingenuity.

 

But it is perfectly within the realm of the rules for it to work.

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that's a special effect argument not supported by the mechanics of the rules.

As per RAW, under invisibilty, a character can be revealed by throwing liquid on said invibile character but a change enviroment defined as rain say for negative perception rolls wouldn't? And this argument is really simular to missile deflection where the ability to deflect an attack isn't based on DC or power by rather the what the special effect is.

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