Am I applying Power Defense correctly?

[DasBroot]

At what step does Power Defense get applied to a negative adjustment power attacking a defensive attribute?

 

Or, if easier, at what point does the effect of that attack get halved?

 

Right now I'm running it like this - a 12 point standard effect Drain Body attacks a character with 5 power defense:

 

12 (effect) - 5 (power defense) = 7 .  7 / 2 = 3.5 = 4 Body gets drained .

 

A player maintains that the true way of handling it is 12 / 2 = 6 (because the 'effect' is halved) - 5 = 1 / 2 = 1 Body

 

I  figure it's no different than how PD/ED and Damage Reduction interact with regular damage - but I could be wrong.

[Scott Baker]

The effect of the power is halved, so reduce the points before applying defenses. This is not the same as Damage Reduction which works on damage past defenses.

 

Side notes:

Looking at your calculation, remember that rounding is normally in favor of the character, so 3.5 rounds down to 3 (if that were the calculation to be used).

Looking at the player's calculation, I'm not sure why the point through defense is being divided by 2 again.

[Lucius]

I may have to check the rules on this...but I've always subtracted Power Defense first, then halved the effect. Have I been doing it wrong?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is sure you don't halve it twice

[Scott Baker]

I may have to check the rules on this...but I've always subtracted Power Defense first, then halved the effect. Have I been doing it wrong?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is sure you don't halve it twice

This isn't any different than other damage modifiers. If I haymaker, I add the additional damage before applying defenses; I don't apply the normal damage and then add the extra after defenses have been applied. (Yes, I know this is an damage increase rather than a decrease.)

 

Also, check the Leech example on 6E1 141. You roll the damage. You halve it. The results get applied. Which is where defenses come in.

[Hyper-Man]

I think Lucius is correct.  The general rule doesn't specifically address the order at which Power Defense is applied.  The specific entry under Power Defense itself does though. I would say subtract Power Defense first, then half unless someone wants to pose the question to Mr. Long.

 

6e1 141

Defense Powers: To balance the usefulness of defenses in the HERO System, the effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved: any Defense Power; the Characteristics CON, DCV, DMCV, PD, ED, REC, END, BODY, and STUN; and any other ability the GM designates as primarily defensive in nature. EGO, PRE, Desolidification, and similar abilities do not count as “defensive abilities” for this purpose even though they have defensive functions.

Example: Leech buys Drain 6d6. This would normally Drain a full 6d6 worth of Character Points of a certain Power or Characteristic. However, if he buys it to apply against a defense (CON, PD, ED, STUN, or the like), he would roll 6d6 and then halve the result to determine how many Character Points of the defense he Drained.

 

6e1 272
 

POWERS
Adjustment Powers: If a character attempts to Drain (or otherwise negatively Adjust) a target’s Power Defense, the Power Defense applies first, and anything that gets past the Power Defense is then halved when determining how much the negative Adjustment Power reduces the Power Defense.

 

[Scott Baker]

I think Lucius is correct.  The general rule doesn't specifically address the order at which Power Defense is applied.  The specific entry under Power Defense itself does though. I would say subtract Power Defense first, then half unless someone wants to pose the question to Mr. Long.

 

6e1 141

6e1 272

 

That's a specific direction when draining the defense that applies to the power. In general notice that determining the amount of damage is done before determining the effect of the damage (that's even how the rules are layed out).

 

I'll certainly post the question.

[薔薇語]

The way I always thought of the order of operations was:

 

 

1 - Determine if the attack hit or missed.

2 - Determine how many dice of effect can be rolled

3 - Determine if there is any Damage Negation. If so, reduce the Dice of Effect from above

4 - Roll the dice to determine the effect.

5 - Apply all the standard static (single number) defenses (PD, ED, PwrD, etc).

6 - Determine carry over past defenses

7 - Apply any percentage reductions that are relevant (Damage Reduction).

8 - Determine final effect and apply against the relevant stats (STUN, Body, END, CON, etc).

9 - Determine if the defender has become "STUNNED"

10 - Finished.

 

Things like "Teamwork" and possibly "Autofire" can affect this a bit.

 

So, if I was applying POWER DEFENSE against a DRAIN attack, I would apply it at stage 5. If there was a Damage Negation against Drain, I would apply that at stage 3. If there is any Damage Reduction, I would apply that at stage 7.

 

Soar.

[Scott Baker]

Steve's answer here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92360-negatively-adjusting-defensive-powerscharacteristics/?do=findComment&comment=2466163

[DasBroot]

The player calculation being halved again in the original post was a typo on my part.  

 

Thanks for the answers and asking Steve Long.

[Tasha]

So any multiplication or division of damage always happens after defences (ie PD/ED, Power Def, etc). That makes the whole thing work consistantly with the rest of the system

[Lucius]

So any multiplication or division of damage always happens after defences (ie PD/ED, Power Def, etc). That makes the whole thing work consistantly with the rest of the system

 

I thought Vulnerability applied before defenses?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usually applied before a palindromedary tagline

[Scott Baker]

I thought Vulnerability applied before defenses?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usually applied before a palindromedary tagline

It does: (CC 129) "The multiplier applies to the damage or effect before any defenses."

[bigdamnhero]

Huh, I always thought the rule was that halving is always the last thing you apply, but I think I was thinking of DCV.

 

So any multiplication or division of damage always happens after defences (ie PD/ED, Power Def, etc). That makes the whole thing work consistantly with the rest of the system

I wish it was that simple. Aside from Vulnerabilities (which Scott pointed out) think about damage modifiers for Hit Location: apply defenses then multiply...except for STUN from Killing Attacks, where you multiply first then subtract.

 

Any other exceptions we can think of?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Why would you apply Vulnerabilities before defenses. That doesnt make sense to me.

[Lucius]

Why would you apply Vulnerabilities before defenses. That doesnt make sense to me.

 

Well, one reason to do it that way is because that's what the rule says. As for why the rule says that, I think the book said "If you're vulnerable to something it's going to hurt."

 

To put it another way, if you are say a werewolf and buy enough defenses to be effectively bulletproof to small calibers, then if you apply Defense before Vulnerability, you're STILL bulletproof even to silver bullets - if you take no damage from a 1d6+1 Killing Attack (lead) then you take no damage from a 1d6+1 Killing Attack (silver.) By applying Vulnerability before Defenses, you can effectively ignore small blade and bullet attacks, but could be hurt by similar attacks using silver blades or silver bullets.

 

So it makes sense to me although I am sure you can find lycanthropes who will howl that it's not fair.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Applying a post before a palindromedary tagline

[薔薇語]

I don't know. That seems like a specious argument to me. Seriously, it is the 21st century. By know we should be more accepting of our Lycan brothers and sisters. 

 

Soar.