Jump to content

Martial Arts against non humans


Recommended Posts

This is a concept I've struggled with for a while.  It comes up in Fantasy or Sci Fi settings more than others, but its valid across any game setting.

 

Just because you know Kung Fu doesn't mean you can use it on everything.  We know for absolute fact that the basic blows, blocks, and kicks work on pretty much anything: a woman in my state beat the crap out of a cougar that attacked her while jogging because she used karate.  But some moves shouldn't.

 

Those grabs and throws you learned that work so well on humans by leverage and pivoting won't work so well on a moose or a giant octopus.  That nerve strike is dandy on people because you know just where to hit.  But on a dragon?

 

I toyed with the idea of requiring martial arts to take a familiarity with broad groups of creatures that they work on (quadropeds, insects, etc) based on their body construction at least for special maneuvers.  But that adds expense to the build that maybe isn't fair.  Another approach is to just say "it doesn't work" as a GM decision.  I dunno.  Just the idea of using a nerve strike on an Otyugh makes no sense to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nerve Strike Martial Maneuvers are NNDs and shouldn't work against something that doesn't have those same nerves

 

 

Sure, but how far do you take that?  Nerve strikes target specific ganglia in exact spots on a human body.  Horses have those, but they're in specific spots, different than humans.  You can't use the same leverage against a horse you do a human being.  if a horse tries to kick you, a hip pivot isn't going to even bother it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one of those things where you have to ask yourself "Is this nod to "realism" going to add to the fun of a game or will it add frustration or needless complication"

 

I think for most games that it will add needless complications.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martial Arts are very "point efficient." You get a lot of bang for the buck so to speak. I've long thought that either there is, or there should be, considered to be a kind of "implied Limitation" similar to the Real Weapon Limitation that restricts Martial Arts.

 

But it's probably best to leave finding the exact right balance and way to approach it to each individual gaming table.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary proposes that there may be Target Elements as well as Weapon Elements

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martial Arts are very "point efficient." You get a lot of bang for the buck so to speak. I've long thought that either there is, or there should be, considered to be a kind of "implied Limitation" similar to the Real Weapon Limitation that restricts Martial Arts.

 

But it's probably best to leave finding the exact right balance and way to approach it to each individual gaming table.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary proposes that there may be Target Elements as well as Weapon Elements

 

Martial Arts are way too point efficient. So much so that you see characters that shouldn't have MA styles running around with them. It might be worth looking at reverse engineering them using Skill levels and HtH attack in a Multipower as a check.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the limit is implicit in a nerve strike, and while specific technique would vary, the priciples of most throws apply in many circumstances beyond the obvious. I remember once reading that a school of kaliparyat teaches nerve points for elephants. :)

 

So if something comes up often...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that Martial Arts are awfully cheap - "cost effective" - and in fact many of the things that went down in cost in 6th edition, almost all of them are related to martial arts I'm noticing in rebuilding Watchers of the Dragon characters.

 

Requiring familiarity with various categories of creatures would increase cost slightly for games it is used in.  Indeed, it would be an interesting series of quests and training to find someone who actually knows how to use martial arts against that dragon, for instance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This would apply to CSLs, too. It's quite unlikely that your training involed countering all the other fighting styles and weapon sets available, in extreme situations you probably only ever fought against someone with the exact same weaponry. And if students of the Dagnabitian School of High Fencing didn't train against flails and the Orcish Kr'Hnkk, they certainly didn't train against countering minotaur charges and the spikey tentacles of the Demon Priestess of Outer Erthrul.

But they're still better off than their rival fencing schol, which uses minimalistic interposition of their blades, which isn't adaptable at all against very different fighting styles, while their fancy footwork provides good defense against almost anything.

 

Now, whether it's worth to simulate that is another matter entirely. While I could see campaigns where this is part of the implicit setting assumptions (in "my Kung Fu is better than yours" way), for most cases I wouldn't want to waste too much effort on it. So for very special cases like nerve strikes, anatomy skill rolls or training might be required (a one-time deal), whereas for others I'd just go with a variation of the GURPS familiarity penalty (-1 to -3 on rolls) for the first few times.

 

And, well, grappling rules...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two things to keep in mind. 1) Throws sunce fourth edition had a meta rule added ao you could not throw mecha size opponants. Though technically you can still block one. 2) Nerve strikes are built as NND and in the Ultimate Martial Artist, NND powers usually have the Non-Humaniod as a defense. So I would just have a meta rule that certain maneuvers don't work for certain beings.

 

Forgot to say that for games that there are non-human opponents, then custom elements would work to eliminate the penalty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martial Arts are way too point efficient. So much so that you see characters that shouldn't have MA styles running around with them. It might be worth looking at reverse engineering them using Skill levels and HtH attack in a Multipower as a check.

I use to be in that camp. Blowtorch was to me the prime example and offender. Then I realized that martial arts in hero terms just represent fighting skill. But still that wouldn't apply to Blowtorch. Then I realized that villians in some school of thought are built as challenges, not realism. Now im ok with characters having martial arts because in those cases the the villians have it to increase their hand to hand effectiveness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I once had a player's character attempt a Judo throw on a lunging boar. All I did was slap on a penalty to the attack roll, and things worked out just fine (even with said penalty, his sheer skill at the martial arts allowed him to succeed).

In the real world, it would depend on the throw being used. Cowboys use a head wrestle to throw a calf down works the same on a human.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A required Biology KS would do the trick. In a world where fighting big tentacled beasts is common, a Martial Artist might have acess to Octopus Pressure Points 101. A Sensei might feel dragon fighting is an important skill to teach.  It comes down to what is normal for the game world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Martial Arts are way too point efficient. So much so that you see characters that shouldn't have MA styles running around with them. It might be worth looking at reverse engineering them using Skill levels and HtH attack in a Multipower as a check.

 

Already done. Interestingly, the breakdown is:

 

if you spend less than 12-14 points the standard system is much more efficient than a multipower.

if you spend around 18-22 points they are usually similar

if you spend more than that, the multipower is more efficient

 

I've switched my game over to a multipower based system years ago, and never looked back. It's not just the question of costs and wierd exploits (like making your offensive strike AP) but that the current system really breaks down if you want lots of maneuvers or only a couple.

 

So for example, an ancient master with a very wide range of maneuvers is going to be a crap fighter - someone built on similar points with just a couple of solid maneuvers and a few CSLs will clean his clock, because there is very little advantage to having multiple variations on the basic maneuvers. They are just wasted points. Likewise in the current system, a "novice" will have one or two maneuvers at full effect and nothing else, instead of having a range of less effective abilities. Multipowers scale better in both cases.

 

cheers, Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are a number of ways to do Throw. Remember, Trip is a standard maneuver now.

 

So

 

Throw:  (Total: 2 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) +1 with Trip (Real Cost: 2)

 

But there are other ways

 

Throw:  (Total: 10 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Flight 1m, Position Shift, Does Knockback (+1/4), Usable As Attack (+1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor can only grant the power to others (10 Active Points); Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Can Be Blocked/Deflected (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), Cannot Hover (must move at least 2m per Phase; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Throw:  (Total: 12 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Change Environment (-4 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll) (12 Active Points); Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Limited Power Target may choose between: STR roll, DEX roll, Breakfall, or Acrobatics (-1/2), Can Be Deflected (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

And even a way to do STR damage with it.

 

Throw Damage:  (Total: 3 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset; Trigger Condition: Successful Throw attack; +1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds that there's also Grab and Throw

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lucius why would you put knockback on flight?

 

I had a vague idea of allowing it to do knockback damage instead of or in addition to STR damage. But it's probably better to trim that Advantage off as cruft.

 

Throw:  (Total: 9 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Flight 1m, Position Shift, Usable As Attack (+1/2), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor can only grant the power to others (9 Active Points); Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), no Noncombat movement (-1/4), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feed it to the palindromedary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No - anyone can do a throw, without the need for martial arts. It's built into the core rules via grab: when you grab someone you can automatically either throw them or squeeze them. You can also use Trip, which is a standard maneuver, as noted above, so there are two ways to build throws, depending on what you want.

 

All a martial arts multipower needs to do is add a some extra STR and some CSLs to make it easier to grab and throw or trip opponents, giving you the ability to build WWF style wrestling slams or Aikido-style redirection throws.

 

Basically, pretty much all martial arts maneuvers can either be built directly with powers (HKA, Flash, etc) or with a combination of STR and/or CSLs. I use STR rather than HA, so that you don't need to build seperate multipowers for use unarmed or with weapon elements, but you could choose to do that if you wanted.

 

cheers, Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I built a chart of 0 cost martial arts once, its worth digging up again.  My idea is that anyone can do any martial arts maneuver, they're just lousy at it.  All the maneuvers are the same: killing strike, etc, but they are built with the martial arts rules to cost 0 points, so they have heavy restrictions and penalties on them.  Then I considered them free, everyone can try.  Its just not very effective.  Most of the tougher maneuvers take a full phase, for instance, because they require concentration and careful aim.  All of them have OCV penalties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...