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Create Water/Food, Purify Water/Food spells

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.Create Food and Drink: (Total: 3 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2), Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (3 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Time Limit (1 Day; -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day (+3/4) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Create palindromedary tagline

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Cosmetic Transform changes a things color or something equally, you know, cosmetic; it could make dome thing taste like food but could not fundamentally alter the nature of the item. I would think it would have to be a minor transform at the very least. Creating objects from nothing is a Major Transform, they may be a good place to start.

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The life support is interesting but I want the Purify to have less AP than the Create

 

Purify Food & Drink Transform, Minor 4d6 (Spoiled Food and Drink into Edible Food and Drink) AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra Turn to cast -1 1/4, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2, Limited Target (Food Items and Drinks) -1/4, All or Nothing -1/2.  BP:20, AP:25 Real Cost:6

 

Create Food & Water Transform, Major 3d6 (Creates a tasteless porridge and water)  AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra 10 Minutes to cast -2, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2 BP:30 AP:38 Real Cost: 9

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The life support is interesting but I want the Purify to have less AP than the Create

 

Purify Food & Drink Transform, Minor 4d6 (Spoiled Food and Drink into Edible Food and Drink) AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra Turn to cast -1 1/4, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2, Limited Target (Food Items and Drinks) -1/4, All or Nothing -1/2. BP:20, AP:25 Real Cost:6

 

Create Food & Water Transform, Major 3d6 (Creates a tasteless porridge and water) AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra 10 Minutes to cast -2, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2 BP:30 AP:38 Real Cost: 9

This is an excellent guideline.

 

How much food can you purify or create?

 

I would say 1 body equals enough food for 1 person for 1 meal. Each +1 Body rolleds, doubles the number of people you can feed (or increases the number of meals) so 10 Body rolled purifies or creates enough to feed 500 people.

 

If that is too much, make it double every +2 Body. Or each +1 Body covers 1 person (so 10 Body covers 10 meals)

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I am thinking a simple system, for create food 1 body = 1 meal created.

 

Purify Food and Water will destroy poisons if the total is enough to transform the poison into something harmless.  Most toxins that cause just an upset stomachs will be a negative level or more to a stat roll, so 2 AP per neg level and per meal.  More toxins powerful will be a drain or a blast or RKA sometimes with damage over time. so 5 AP and up per meal.

 

 

The spell casters in this world have an Arcane or Faith VPPs with an matched skill to cast and a matched Endurance Reserve to power the spells. This is based in part on the Spelljammer Setting from AD&D 2ed published by TSR.  So the spells should be:

 

Purify Food & Drink Transform, Minor 4d6 (Spoiled Food and Drink into Edible Food and Drink) AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra Turn to cast -1 1/4, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2, Limited Target (Food Items and Drinks) -1/4, All or Nothing -1/2, Requires a Faith Power Roll -1/2.  BP:20, AP:25 Real Cost:3

 

Create Food & Water Transform, Major 3d6 (Creates a tasteless porridge and water)  AOE 1m Radius +1/4, Concentration 1/2 DCV -1/4, Extra 10 Minutes to cast -2, Gestures (1 hand) -1/4, Incantations -1/4, No Range -1/2, Requires a Faith Power Roll -1/2 BP:30 AP:38 Real Cost: 8

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The life support is interesting but I want the Purify to have less AP than the Create

My proposed build had Variable Special Effects specifically because it's one Power Build incorporating several possible "spells."

 

Want to find edible food in the wilderness? Check.

 

Want to slice a small loaf of bread so it feeds 16 even though there's only enough left for 8? Check.

 

Want to purify food that's gone bad or is suspect? Check.

 

Want to literally conjure a meal out of your hat? Check.

 

You can define each of these feats as "separate spells" and still represent them as a single Power Build.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feeding a palindromedary

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I did it with minor transforms, too, but I thought about either using Drain Poison (and house-ruling that consumed food doesn't regain negative properties) or apply the Transform effect not to the BODY of the food, but to the AP of the poison/disease/putrefaction. That way more dangerous poisons wouldn't be done away with that easily. The same would apply to actually healing poison, too.

 

Sure, it's a bit game-y, but keeps the players on their toes in more paranoid campaigns and provides job security for the poisoner's guild.

 

This message brought to you by the Poisoner's Guild. Poison - never having to say you're sorry.

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I like this idea - it's basically handling poison (or just yucky stuff) in food the same way we handle it in a person who has just been poisoned - say by a giant scorpion - in combat.

 

In terms of mundane use - food which has simply spoiled but is not actually poisoned - the AP would be so low that a very simple cantrip could reverse it

 

cheers, Mark

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I think Lucius's original post option was by far the most succinct and RAW build. 

 

Using a transform for this does seem initially okay but I think it is actually far too round about an option. And I would not require that it go above a cosmetic and certainly never above a minor transform to make food. I know that people tend to think of "create something from nothing" must equal Major or Sever Transform but that is fundamentally misunderstanding the objective value of transform. More than "what is created", "What mechanical value is gained" is the defining quality between the several transforms. That is why nothing more than a general +2 bonus should be achievable from a Minor Transform while a Major Transform can do more. 

 

So it comes down to looking at the creation and purification of food in purely mechanical terms: how much real value is it creating for the player character? In HERO terms it is providing a temporary solution to hunger. Is there any other solution in HERO that provides this solution? Yes, LS: Food & Water. So it makes sense that we should pin our cost expecations against that value; a value of 1-3 points only. So if your Power build is costing you far more than 2-6 points (akin to a UoO LS:Food&Drink), then you are likely over doing it. 

This gets back to Lucius's original build. Rather than use a completely separate power mechanic to represent an already existing power mechanic (which is generally frowned upon for good reason), he just used the one as presented in the RAW. Then expanded upon it to make sure it could be usable in a variety of special ways (foraging, magical doubling, whole-cloth creation, etc). It was a simple and sweet build that is price point appropriate (the most PPA a build for this could be - 1 real point!). 

 

Lastly, unless there is a genre expectation that food is a rarity and thus that is a major factor for the PCs, then I do not see any reason to ever get above a 1-3 point cost for a food&drink power. Of course if you are in a Post-Apoc world where food is scarce, I would reconsider that standard - but then again, I might reconsider the RAW pricing for all the LS powers as they would obviously be FAR more valuable in that setting than in any other one. 

 

Soar. 

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I am running a Fantasy Space Game based on the old TSR game world of Spelljammer.  Swords and Sorcery in Space with Wheel-lock firearms and some Steam-punk gear that tends to blow up.

The PC are currently running a ship with 10 persons aboard and will get an upgrade to a 30 man ship when/if they deliver the princess to her political marriage that seals a political alliance.  So, the Druids spells need to cover a number of persons.

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Well, unless your specific Spelljammer setting diverges quite a bit from my experience of the game, Food and Water is an afterthought at best. Thus I still hold to the idea that the druid should not be spending more than 1-3 real points for the power to provide sustenance. Your current build would require at minimum of 8 points and possibly 11 (if you force the Druid to buy purify as being separate from creation). 

To respond to an earlier point you made about which should be more costly (purify vs create), I disagree with your basic assumption that creation should be more expensive. I think the mechanical effects of removing a poison (which is equivalent to making someone immune to a poison) have a greater in game effect than provision of food&drink. Why do I think this? Well, it is a two fold issue: 1- Food&Drink provisions are solutions to 'natural' problems and are not interacting with effects other players are buying (as a normal rule of thumb). 2- But anti-poison and/or anti-disease (spoilage) provisions are solutions to 'natural' problems AND effects that other players are likely to purchase. It is far more likely for a player to have an NND attack nullified by "LS:Immune to poison" or "LS:Immune to disease" than it is for that player to buy an attack nullified by "LS: Does not Eat". 

 

Even with that said, though, I don't think an extremely limited LS:Poison and Disease should be costing more than 5 or so points unless there is a genre convention at work; SpellJammer doesn't strike me as a setting that represents that exception.

To put into perspective why I think that 5 point limit is a good measure is because I could make any character immune to any poison / disease for ANY source for a day for cheap:

Immunity for All!:

LS: Immunity to all diseases and poisons - 10 pt base

UoO: Usable by other - Granted to up to 4 targets - +3/4

Time Limit: Persistent power to 6 hour limitation - -1/2

Active Cost: 17pts
Real Cost: 11pts. 

If we add on extra limitations (Gestures, extra time, foci, incantations, cost end, etc), it becomes significantly cheaper. 

 

Soar. 

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Does culinary intent matter? An omnivorous sapient could engage in cannibalism, even if they normally never would. If this is the case, then "Purify Food and Drink" sounds like a cheap way to rid a fellow sapient of poison and disease.

 

(No "food must be dead" arguing point, please: there are cultures that eat live food.)

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I've always just handled this as Life Support UOO, similar to Lucius' suggestion, and never had a problem with it. But it depends on how much you want to focus on it I guess. 

 

In theory I like the idea of being able to Purify more food than you can Create. But if either costs more than Doesn't Need To Eat...

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Christopher, I am not sure I get what you mean with your point about dispelling. 

Assuming you mean dispel the Special Effect of using magic to counter magic, you could dispel the stated powers above that use magic as a base. My above build for making things non-harmful, if defined as magic, could easily be dispelled. It would be hard to dispel (magic to counter magic) a Power Build that is not using a Magic special effect but that is hardly an issue solely with the above builds but rings true across all builds. So, if I had my build above but swapped out Immunity for 'no food or drink' and tacked on Requires Skill Roll, I could just define it as 'really good at foraging for food'. That, of course, is naturally not going to be effected by a traditional 'dispel' effect. 

If you mean dispel in a strictly mechanical sense of the DISPEL power - yeah, while a case could be made that the UoO build could be Dispelled (it is an attack power), the standard Life Supports can't be (not an attack power). 

 

But if you are talking about a broad mechanical sense of "stop a power", then all the above builds can be stopped by a variety of powers; sometimes determined by the mechanic and sometimes by special effect. Standard Life Support can be stopped with a simple drain. UoO LS can be stopped with a dispel or stopped after the fact by drain potentially. Magic special effects can be countered by magical effects that target magical effects. But those same magical dispels might not work on normal foraging of food special effects. But those effects can easily be counter by a variety of RKA and Blasts that just destroy the items in particular - a makeshift dispel. 

 

Lastly, when it comes to the visibility of a power, that is largely going to be determined by the special effect at play. Is it divine creation of bread where onlookers can easily notice that the loaf of bread never gets smaller? Is it the arcane forces coallescing into solid food? Is it nature spirits and guardians bringing you sustenance? Or is it just you going out to the market and buying some bananas? All of which could be built along the same power concept but would require different advantages / disadvantages to properly calculate among other things the 'visibility' of the power in question. 

 

So I come back to my initial issue: what is the issue? 

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I am running a Fantasy Space Game based on the old TSR game world of Spelljammer.  Swords and Sorcery in Space with Wheel-lock firearms and some Steam-punk gear that tends to blow up.

 

The PC are currently running a ship with 10 persons aboard and will get an upgrade to a 30 man ship when/if they deliver the princess to her political marriage that seals a political alliance.  So, the Druids spells need to cover a number of persons.

 

I'll see your 30 man ship and raise you to 6 ship fleet of 30 man ships. Note the bolded words below. 

 

.Create Food and Drink: (Total: 3 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Life Support (Eating: Character only has to eat once per week), Variable Special Effects (Any SFX; +1/2), Usable Nearby (+3/4), Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used (3 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Time Limit (1 Day; -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4), 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day (+3/4) (Real Cost: 1)

It would take some time and effort, but with this power I can feed the whole fleet. Each deckhand may get only one meal a day but it will be a filling meal.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Create palindromedary tagline

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I've always just handled this as Life Support UOO, similar to Lucius' suggestion, and never had a problem with it. But it depends on how much you want to focus on it I guess. 

 

In theory I like the idea of being able to Purify more food than you can Create. But if either costs more than Doesn't Need To Eat...

"Usable Nearby" and "Recoverable Charge" both have some flexibility built into them, in my view. You could easily justify purifying more food than if you were just creating it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Purify palindromedary taglines

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"Usable Nearby" and "Recoverable Charge" both have some flexibility built into them, in my view. You could easily justify purifying more food than if you were just creating it.

True. I've always built it as Usable Simultaneously, rather than Usable Nearby, so there's a limit to the number of people you can feed. But either way requires a certain amount of handwaving, so it's just a question of which parts you're more comfortable with. 

 

My only problem with usable on others is that its a constant effect, so you can dispel someone's food?

Fair point. See above re handwaving. :)

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Christopher, I am not sure I get what you mean with your point about dispelling. 

 

 

Its pretty simple; the power "DISPEL" rolls 1d6 per 3 points base effect against the active point cost of the target power.  In the case of life support vs eating, that's going to be what, 5 points?  So for a few dice you can easily dispel the effect.  In other words: you make the food vanish with a spell.  So you aren't really creating food at all, you're creating a magical construct that acts as food.

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Christopher, I am not sure I get what you mean with your point about dispelling. 

 

Its pretty simple; the power "DISPEL" rolls 1d6 per 3 points base effect against the active point cost of the target power.  In the case of life support vs eating, that's going to be what, 5 points?  So for a few dice you can easily dispel the effect.  In other words: you make the food vanish with a spell.  So you aren't really creating food at all, you're creating a magical construct that acts as food.

So your point is that it is too easy to stop the power?

 

Yes, assuming my general build which is just a few active points, a three dice Dispel could easily remove it. Thus a 6 Active point Dispel could remove a 3 or 4 active point UoO LS. I understand that but still don't see the issue. Is this a negative or a positive thing for you?

 

To put this in a different context but maintaining the relevant points: Mr. Mage has a 'Arcane Push' attack (6d6 blast - PD - 30 active). But Ms. Counter Mage has a 'oh no you didn't!' counter spell (9d6 Dispel vs Blast - 27 active).

 

For fewer active points Ms. Counter Mage has rendered Mr. Mage's attack pointless. Is this a problem? I think most people would say no. Why? Ms. Counter Mage can only affect blast unless she buys advantages to expand her target. She must be near Mr. Mage and notice him casting otherwise she can't stop it. She must make an attack roll against Mr. Mage and any Power Defense Mr. Mage has gets to protect his Arcane Push attack. Ms. Counter Mage's attack is also 'all or nothing' (IIRC). All in all, the Dispel power is only 'too cheap' (assuming that is your issue) if one ignores all the other context of it.

Getting back to the LS:Food&Drink vs Dispel, we can see that for Ms. Counter Mage to affect the LS:Food&Drink UoO build with a DISPEL, she would either need to be indescribably specialized for it to be cheap or is wasting a lot of points to keep other people hungry. So, I don't see the issue here.

 

But lets assume your issue is simply with the fact that food can be dispelled in the first place: So? Normal food can be dispelled - it is called "Blast, HtHa, RKA, HKA...". But if your concern is that this food is somehow NOT normal food and thus shouldn't exist, we can easily alter that with one simple advantage: inherent. Turn the 4-5 point built into a 4-6 point build and say that the INHERENT advantage is applicable only after the completion of the power. Thus the food is REAL but created by magical means. It can no longer be DISPELLED by anti-magic dispels post facto. It can still be affected pre-completion under that design but if you don't want that, then allow the INHERENT advantage to be used normally and thus completely prevent that from happening at all.

 

All in all, I am still confused as to the issue here. This power is not easily dispelled as one might think. And the food can be made 'real' for almost 0 active points.

 

Soar.

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