Jump to content

Danger: Humans


薔薇語

Recommended Posts

Also, there is no "mounting evidence" that our ancestors were "endurance hunters." Without going into an epic thread of a few years back, human hunter gatherers probably endurance hunted some animals, and used other strategies on others. The human evolutionary advantage is that we're tool users --not that we can run down horses. 

Indeed, that is our design purpose.

 

Also without medical assitance all those ideas about human being able to survive stuff like "dismemberment" is not true. Indeed we are more fragile:

Any hunter species on this planet can without (great) danger eat and digest raw flesh without much issues. Even apes like to eat raw flesh once in a while (if they can annoy a predator to give it up enough). There are even some scavenger species that eat exclusively rotting flesh and they thrive.

 

We humans in turn are highly adapted to eat cooked meat.

I think the better a species becomes as tool users, the worse it becomes as non-tool users (this is not only genetic evolution, but might also be how the bacteria in our digestive systems changed over time).

 

If we ever find life of off-Earth origin, we'll be able to talk more intelligently about it. We are still laboring under the ignorance of knowing only one biology. This is at least as bad as knowing about only one planetary system, back before the mid-1990s.

I still think it will be similar to us humans.

Not because we are special. But exactly because we are NOT special.

Not because we are the gold-standart. But because we are bog standart.

 

As far back as the bible humans asumed they are special ("created in gods image").

It seems very odd to me that we continue to believe that after all we learned about how we are the same as other life on the planet.

 

Actually makes me wonder:

Was there ever a SciFy setting where humans were not special?

Where we had no special genetic/evolutionary advantage/disadvantage towards other species? Where there was no "indomitable spirit" or other trait that set us appart?

 

How do we know our saliva and skin oils wouldn’t be ultra-corrosive to most other sapient races? What if we actually have the strongest vocal chords and can paralyze or kill the inhabitants of other worlds just by screaming at them? What if most sentient life in the universe turns out to be vegetable-like and lives in fear of us rare “animal” races who can move so quickly and chew shit up with our teeth?

Corosive skin/salvia:

There is a "neutral line" for acids and bases alike - Water. It's PH value is the same on every planet.

A species we could melt by spitting on them, we could melt by just throwing water at them.

 

Killing vocal cords:

The shockwaves caused by our vocal cords are nothing compared to the shock of landing on (or jumping of) the ground at very low gravity. Or the pressure air puts on our bodies. Sonic waves only travel in a medium like air. And any air able to carry our speech needs a certain minimum density.

If we could shout it to death, it would have died from our atmosphere pressure long before we could say anything.

 

Vegetable life:

Any definition of sentient I know includes some form of tool use. With tool use all natural weaponry becomes kinda useless, because you get proper weaponry to use instead.

Our teeth are nice, IF the target is already dead/disabeled. Our teeth and nails aren't a proper fighting/killing tool like the ones of a Lion. They are not weapons, they are part of our digestve system. The acids in our stomach are much more dangerous then our teeth - and even we have issues resisting them anywhere but our stomach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 168
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Harry Turtledove portrayed an interesting "Danger" Humans" scenario in his short story called (IIRC) "The Road Less Traveled," in his collection Kaleidoscope. In it, FTL (and, incidentally, gravity control) is actually an easy technology that can be built at a Medieval stage of tool use. Humans just somehow missed it, and developed other stuff instead. Steam engines. Electricity. Radio. Automatic-fire weapons. Nukes.

 

All this comes as a terrible surprise to the alien fleet that attempts to conquer Earth, and a somewhat humiliating surprise to human scientists.

 

At the end of the story, some human and alien characters speculate -- the humans uneasily, the aliens in horror -- what will happen now that humans have FTL, too. Because the humans and these particular aliens have always behaved exactly the same whenever they met people with lower technology and weaker militaries.

 

(Run the scenario forward 50 years and you could build an interesting Star Hero setting. Even if major human governments are determined to behave better, FTL is still within reach of minor governments, criminal gangs, or any two-bit group of would-be bandits, conquerors, or zealous missionaries. Who will go out and behave badly. PCs can be the, ahem, entrepreneurial pioneers or the government agents sent to rein them in -- among other options.)

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

James White's "Sector General" series presents a setting in which humans seem in no way special among the hundreds of alien species. The early stories had human protagonists, but they had both human and alien friends and colleagues. As the series has gone on, more protagonists have been nonhuman.

 

Even in settings that seem human-dominated, I'd draw a distinction between settings in which the dominance is casual and assumed -- the result of a human author telling stories about human characters for a human audience -- and settings that make a point of human dominance, however it is explained.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Niven and Pournelle's Footfall is another story similar in some ways to the Turtledove story mentioned above. Humanity fights back via Project Orion.
 

 

They possess more advanced technology than humans, but have developed none of it on their own. In the distant past on their planet, another species was dominant, with the Fithp existing as animals, perhaps even as pets. This predecessor species badly damaged the environment, rendering themselves and many other species extinct, but left behind their knowledge inscribed on large stone cubes (called Thuktunthp, plural of Thuktun in the Fithp language), from which the Fithp have gained their technology. The study of Thuktun is the only science the Fithp possess. The Fithp are armed with a technology that is superior, rather than incomprehensible: laser cannon, projectile rifles, controlled meteorite strikes to bombard surface targets, lightcraft surface-to-orbit shuttles the size of warships, etc.

 

 

HM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually makes me wonder:

Was there ever a SciFy setting where humans were not special?

Where we had no special genetic/evolutionary advantage/disadvantage towards other species? Where there was no "indomitable spirit" or other trait that set us appart?

 

 

 

David Brin's Sundiver, Startide Rising and a couple of other novels in the same universe. In that universe, humans eventually develop FTL and get out into the galaxy--only to discover that it's not a vast, unclaimed wilderness. It's New York City. And our solar system is simply one of countless not-particularly-nice apartments therein.

 

There is a galactic civilization that is literally billions of years old. Extant species seek out and cultivate pre-sentient species from fallow worlds* to groom into sentience as their protegees. The newly-emerged species spend 100,000 years as the students/wards/subjects/slaves (it varies depending on the personality of their patron species) of their mentors before becoming full members of the galactic civilization. Nobody does original research anymore; everything was discovered billions of years ago by now long-gone Ancients; "research" consists of looking through the Galactic Library. 

 

*Whole arms of the galaxy are declared off-limits for millions of years at a time to allow new life to evolve on those worlds before being reopened to exploration and colonization. Humans evolved** on a world in one such sector, which is why we found no immediate neighbors.

 

**Only sentient species evolving without help is virtually unheard of (clearly SOMEBODY managed it--the Ancients had nobody to help them along), and most of the other intelligent species in the galaxy don't believe humans did. They think someone started an uplift project on the sly and then abandoned us partway through. Status in the galactic civilization is based on how many "client" races a species has uplifted. Plenty of species would LOVE to take humans under their wing (for our own good, of course) for a 100,000 years or so. A great deal of human politicking in the galaxy is based on acquiring allies who will help us remain free of such "help". It also helps that humans had already uplifted chimps and dolphins before we encountered the galactic community, thereby forcing them to concede--however grudgingly and tentatively--our status as equals in law, if not in practice.

 

One of the ways in which humans are mavericks is in our insistence on continuing to do actual scientific research, and employing our own (often laughably primitive) technology along with things gleaned from the Galactic Library. The humans don't completely trust the library, or maybe just don't like using technology that might as well be magic given our complete lack of understanding of how it works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rememebered a settings where humans were the bogeyman:

Scrapland. The "world" of scraplands is colonised only by robots and they have high fear of those "viscous creatures" (humans). At some point murders happen wich are apparently done by such a "viscous creature". When seen on screen it is humanoid - and that is about how close it is to a human.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brin's Uplift Universe is a "Danger: Humans" setting, but the danger is social, or even philosophical. Just by existing, humans challenge social rules the rest of Galactic society has followed for eons.

 

It doesn't help that by the time humans and aliens meet, humans have already begun uplifting Earth's other protosapient species, making humans a patron race. Chimps and dolphins are a done deal. Other great apes and other cetaceans are merely the most obvious other candidates. Elephants are on the verge of sapience as well. Dogs. Crows are pretty darn smart for creatures with brains the size of a hazelnut. Octopi? With at least a half-dozen candidates for uplift, humans could become not just patrons, but top-ranking, major patrons based on just one planet. Using the New York analogy, Earth ought to be a shabby walk-up apartment in the Bronx but inside, TARDIS-like, is a Billionaire's Row mansion. As part of the price for Galactic admittance (or even avoiding subjugation), humans had to promise not to uplift any more species. Pinky swear! (And yes, this becomes a plot point in one of the novels.)

 

Naturally, some aliens refuse to believe it and see a hidden hand -- an unknown patron, possibly still running the show from the shadows. Or even a force of destiny set to upend Galactic society, whether a Second Coming of the Ancients or a rough beast slouching toward Bethlehem. Either way, dangerous on levels they fear even to consciously acknowledge.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Our victory is assured human.  In a few minutes our greatest battleship will be in position to deliver an Aris-class citykiller, which is uninterceptable.  Then the war is over."

 

"Oh god, billions are going to die!"

"Billions?  No  depending on which city is most convenient to bomb it will be 5-10 million.  After that you'll submit to..."
 

"That's never happened."

"I can assure you we've destroyed cities before."

"So have we, it's never stopped humans fighting before, no human nation has ever surrendered because one of it's cities was destroyed.  Some have had MOST of their cities leveled and still fought."

"Don't be rediculous, no intelligent species would take fatalities over 1% of their population and keep fighting."

"Emporer if you think no intelligent species would take casualties like that, you just called humanity unintelligent.  We're not, we're insane.  We have fought on with greater than 10% populaton loss, and that was one of the nations that WON."

"Captain, why is this human prisoner making up such absurd lies."

"I don't think they're lies.  In fact it explains something.  Several human ships have collided with ours after taking enormous damage.  We thought they were prone to some sort of control failure, but that's not it is it, Mr Anderson?   They weren't moving randomly they were deliberately ramming us weren't they?"

"You only just figured this out?"

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the Larry Niven's Known Space variant on this idea.  Humans don't seem that special compared to other aliens like Kzinti and Puppeteers but when it's discovered that they are really evolved from the Breeder stage of Pak Protectors (THE scariest aliens in the setting) then it gets interesting.  What's even scarier is when a Human goes through the transformation into a Pak. They make the regular Pak look like retards. 

 

:)

HM

Yeah that Protector-stage human genocides an entire sentient species _because they might threaten one of his descendants at some stage_.  Note that said species are on Mars, humans almost never go to Mars, and no Martian has ever killed a human, or even harmed one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Our victory is assured human.  In a few minutes our greatest battleship will be in position to deliver an Aris-class citykiller, which is uninterceptable.  Then the war is over."

 

"Oh god, billions are going to die!"

 

"Billions?  No  depending on which city is most convenient to bomb it will be 5-10 million.  After that you'll submit to..."

 

"That's never happened."

 

"I can assure you we've destroyed cities before."

 

"So have we, it's never stopped humans fighting before, no human nation has ever surrendered because one of it's cities was destroyed.  Some have had MOST of their cities leveled and still fought."

 

"Don't be rediculous, no intelligent species would take fatalities over 1% of their population and keep fighting."

 

"Emporer if you think no intelligent species would take casualties like that, you just called humanity unintelligent.  We're not, we're insane.  We have fought on with greater than 10% populaton loss, and that was one of the nations that WON."

"Captain, why is this human prisoner making up such absurd lies."

 

"I don't think they're lies.  In fact it explains something.  Several human ships have collided with ours after taking enormous damage.  We thought they were prone to some sort of control failure, but that's not it is it, Mr Anderson?   They weren't moving randomly they were deliberately ramming us weren't they?"

 

"You only just figured this out?"

What is this from?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary doesn't recognize it either

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a point vaguely related to the "What Might Make Humans Special" portion of the discussion, last Friday's public radio program All Things Considered included an interview with a biologist who recently published a review paper about one of the great puzzles of human anatomy: Of all mammals, only humans have a chin. (okay, maybe elephants and manatees have chins, but biologists debate this.) And no one knows what the human chin is for. The paper reviewed all the proposed explanations and found them seriously deficient. Given that no other primates have chins, including the extinct species of genus homo, the author suggests -- not entirely facetiously -- that if we understood the purpose of the chin we might discern some deep truth about What Makes Us Human.

 

Perhaps we shall never know until we encounter intelligent aliens, and see if they have chins or not. Perhaps it's a mystery humans can never understand. Or it would drive you mad if you did.

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the interviewer brought up sexual selection. The biologist noted that sexual selection features tend to gender-specific (his example was how only the male cardinal has bright red plumage), and both men and women have chins. 

 

(He didn't bring it up, but sexual selection features also tend to be a form of conspicuous consumption or deliberate advertisement to predators -- the peacock's tail, or the male cardinal's color, again -- and just as the chin has no use, it's also hard to see the cost.)

 

But "tends to" isn't proof. Perhaps humanity is just too new a species for strong chin dimorphism to evolve. And, the male lower jaw and chin tend to be more pronounced, so there's a little dimorphism. Maybe SF writers who want to portray Super-Evolved Future Humanity should portray the women chinless, and the men with huge, bulging chins that would put the most rugged action-movie hero to shame. :)

 

Dean Shomshak

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...