Too Many Swords

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I'm having an extreme problem. I'm running three different fantasy games and I'm noticing a trend. In each one, there is about one or two spell casters, one cleric, and the rest are swordsmen. This is starting to get on my nerves, having to run seven or eight swordsmen at once. I'm going to start running a fourth game, and I'm trying to limit the number of swordsmen, mostly for my sanity. Do you guys have any ideas on how to make sure my campaign isn't run over with swordsmen again?

 

These are some I have now:

 

1) Applying Bleeding Rules.

2) Reducing The Penalty To Placed Shots on RKA's.

3) Giving Magic Users The "Power" Skill For Free.

 

 

 

 

 

As Words Die, We Realize That, In Reality, The Sword Is Mightier Than The Pen

[Doc Democracy]

Your games obviously favour swords. Players rarely tend towards less efficient options.

 

It is impossible to know what is driving the options (whether towards swords or away from magic) without lots more information on the basic parameters of your game.

 

I would say it is opposite of most games I gave run where everyone sees advantage in being a user of magic...

 

Are your players maybe attracted to the simplicity of running a fighter? Is your magic system complex or access to magic so restrictive it puts them off.

 

Finally, I guess it is your vision for magic to be ubiquitous, otherwise you could play a decent low fantasy game with that mix. It us not as if all fighters need to be the same, or even nearly the same in HERO.

 

Doc

[Scott Baker]

Your games obviously favour swords. Players rarely tend towards less efficient options.

My first thought is that spell casters in your games likely pay for their spells with character points, but the swordsmen get their weapons and armor as equipment they can purchase in-game money. This ties in directly with Doc Democracy's statement about, "less efficient options."

[Hyper-Man]

Have a MAGIC Axe (or other out of the ordinary weapon) show up in story and see how long before a character 'specializes' in its use.

 

The MAGIC doesn't have to be extreme (Maybe +1 OCV above normal and/or slightly lower STR Minimum, Extra DC, etc...).

 

HM

[zslane]

I'm curious to know why having a preponderance of melee characters is viewed as an "extreme problem".

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Your games obviously favour swords. Players rarely tend towards less efficient options.

 

I have tried to make it so that isn't the case. I have tried implementing a rule that swords lose power the more you use them. Also, I have given a HEFTY point reduction to magic and its not working. Parameters that are in place in my more Portal Fantasy games are that magic users control different powers in different worlds, and that swords are axes, maces, or even spears in different worlds and vice versa.

 

My first thought is that spell casters in your games likely pay for their spells with character points, but the swordsmen get their weapons and armor as equipment they can purchase in-game money.

 

This is true, but I usually allow my magic users to buy spell books to use spells.

I'm curious to know why having a preponderance of melee characters is viewed as an "extreme problem".

It is problem for multiple reasons.

 

1) The amount of story I have to base around it. For example I wanted my party to tame a Tarrasque (Link is there if you don't know what it is) through the use of magic. Now, they are most likely going to try and kill it.

2) The constant use of gang tactics on small enemies.

3) The lesser fun of my magic users, especially the cleric.

 

 

 

 

As Words Die Answers Are Given.

[Tjack]

Are the "Swordsmen" in your game fleshed out individuals or just cookie cutter copies? If the former you can still get a good game, if the latter then then you need to talk to the players about the fun to be found in style and characterization.

A group containing Conan, D'Artanian, Inigo Montoya and Gomez Addams may have a lot of steel between them but it will be a hell of a show.

[massey]

I'd suggest putting in challenges that are more easily handled by magic users.

 

I see complaints by GMs.  "My players all play combat monsters.  They never buy skills."  Then you see their games, and it's all combat, all the time.  If you let skills be useful, even crucial, to the game, then players will take them.

 

Let them encounter an Iron Golem.  +20 PD, resistant, hardened.  Let their swords 'plink' off of its armored hide.  Then let them get away.  Let them find a book with a magic spell that will defeat the Golem.  The next adventure, let them find a chasm in the dungeon.  There's an invisible path that leads across it, but only those with magic sight can see it.  Something like that.

 

Don't completely screw over the fighters, but if you want more magic, then you need to use adventures where magic is incredibly useful, even necessary.

[Tasha]

Treat spells as equipment ie they cost money. That should make the flexability seem more promising. Also make sure that spells are worth having ie spells you can cast a couple of times a day will not be as enticing as a weapon that you can swing until your endurance runs out. Have minor spells and Attack spells be able to be cast at will. More powerful spells and ones that can break a mystery story take longer to cast. Also have spells that players can just choose off a list. If you make them design spells, then you will only get the game mechanics and the powergamers wanting to play spell casters.

[zslane]

Why are so many players choosing to be sword specialists?

 

If this is only because they are powergamers who have found that the game world rewards swordsmen with greater success for less effort, then the game world itself must change as described by others in this thread.

 

If, on the other hand, they all just happen to really like the concept of swordsmen, then you may have to resign yourself to the fact that you and your players want different things from the game. You may want an adventure where magic is used to tame a Terrasque, but they may just want adventures that offer opportunities for lots of swordplay. You can try to force them into adventures where their favorite abilities are worthless, but you may not have them as players for long. Which I suppose solves your problem, but in a rather tragic way.

[Tasha]

It is worth mentioning that not all players like playing spell casters. Sometimes a Straight up melee specialist is all certain players want to play. Nothing wrong with that if that's a player preference. It's still worth talking to your players about, you may be surprised by what you learn (tragically most GM's don't really talk to their players about the adventure, and end up having no real clue about their players preferences and satisfaction with the game). 

[Markdoc]

Huh. This is the first time I have ever run across a game with too many swordsmen and not enough mages: usually it is the other way round. It might be helpful to get some rough campaign guidelines, so that we can identify if there is a mechanical reason.

 

If there is not a mechanical reason, maybe it's because your players just really like playing swordsmen, in which case rules changes are unlikely to solve your problem.

 

regards, Mark

[womble]

Generally, games seem to go the way of:

 

1. Start with a balanced party of up front combatants, support combatants, combatant support and noncombatant finger-wigglers
2. The ones doing the fighting die
3. The players of the ones who've died don't want to play a combatant, so switch to combatant support of non-combatant
4. Eventually, there aren't enough front line combatants.

 

Maybe you aren't making the front line combatants' lives hard enough...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I guess I'm no sure why it bothers you.  As long as the players are having fun, and you're enjoying yourself, why let it upset you?

[Manic Typist]

...are the swords magic? I'm confused as to why they become less effective the more you use them.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Are the "Swordsmen" in your game fleshed out individuals or just cookie cutter copies? If the former you can still get a good game, if the latter then then you need to talk to the players about the fun to be found in style and characterization.

A group containing Conan, D'Artanian, Inigo Montoya and Gomez Addams may have a lot of steel between them but it will be a hell of a show.

Most of them have bought CSL's in swords and have very similar skills, but are not quite the same per se. And Yes I would love to have those four in my party.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

I'd suggest putting in challenges that are more easily handled by magic users.

 

Let them encounter an Iron Golem. +20 PD, resistant, hardened. Let their swords 'plink' off of its armored hide. Then let them get away. Let them find a book with a magic spell that will defeat the Golem. The next adventure, let them find a chasm in the dungeon. There's an invisible path that leads across it, but only those with magic sight can see it. Something like that.

 

Don't completely screw over the fighters, but if you want more magic, then you need to use adventures where magic is incredibly useful, even necessary.

 

Great Idea!!!

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Treat spells as equipment ie they cost money.

 

 

I could do that

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

...are the swords magic? I'm confused as to why they become less effective the more you use them.

 

 

More or less it is wear on a blade, the more you use it the more dull it becomes

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

And Yes, most of my party likes melee. I have tried to tell them that too many swordsmen leads to problems in the long run. I guess I'll let them suffer the wrath of a Dragon or Golem.

 

 

 

 

As Words Die, We Appreciate The Help We Receive.

[Doc Democracy]

And Yes, most of my party likes melee. I have tried to tell them that too many swordsmen leads to problems in the long run. I guess I'll let them suffer the wrath of a Dragon or Golem.

As Words Die, We Appreciate The Help We Receive.

Carrot and stick, Johnny, carrot AND stick.

 

You need to lure them in with the magic. Perhaps allow the fighters to buy charms they can use, one off spells that will begin tempting them to the dark side. You might even look to differentiate the way they fight by restricting the kinds of magic different people can use (star-sign or race or something interferes with the mystic doflips).

 

No point just beating them, they need to find that other stuff works when even the best swords do not...

[massey]

Carrot and stick, Johnny, carrot AND stick.

 

You need to lure them in with the magic. Perhaps allow the fighters to buy charms they can use, one off spells that will begin tempting them to the dark side. You might even look to differentiate the way they fight by restricting the kinds of magic different people can use (star-sign or race or something interferes with the mystic doflips).

 

No point just beating them, they need to find that other stuff works when even the best swords do not...

 

One thing I really liked about the Final Fantasy games (I only played the early ones, so if they changed this later, too bad), they include a lot of different one-use magic items.  So you could find a magic charm that was basically a one-use fireball spell.  I imagined them to be some intricately carved little trinket that glowed with power, and you threw it on the ground and they released their magic.  So you could have a pure fighter type guy, and he could carry around half a dozen of these things and have some magic support.

 

I think things like that might be fun to add to a fantasy campaign.  

[zslane]

In the old days, D&D was very DM-centric. And by that I mean it was typical for DMs to run pre-written adventure modules (often oriented towards tournament play), and the players had to come up with a party composition that could navigate the challenges of the adventure. The DM didn't (usually) customize the adventure to suit the composition of the party.

 

But then points-based systems like Champions came along and fostered the notion that players could play whatever kind of character they wanted, as long as it stayed within the point limits. In this brave new world, GMs had to customize the adventures to suit the characters that would be participating. After all, when you spend hours upon hours meticulously designing your PC, you don't want to dive into an adventure where 90% of your abilities turn out to be useless. In D&D, you could always just fall on your sword and roll up another character during the next snack break. Priorities change in a point-based system as rich and complex as the Hero System.

 

That's why, IMO, the GM and the players have to collaborate closely to produce characters and adventures that suit each other. Neither can be constructed in a vacuum. When you have a group of players whose tastes differ so drastically from that of the GM, you have a problem that is potentially much bigger than the minor annoyance of "too many swordsmen".

[bluesguy]

Tells us more...

 

• Campaign world
• How many players
• Describe the characters a bit more
• How many points are the characters being built on
• Are all the fighters built like bricks or some of them finesse style fighters
• Run some adventures where role playing (instead of roll playing) is the focus.  More talking less fighting.  Especially ones where the mage and especially the cleric can take the lead.
• Is the cleric just a weak version of a mage (i.e. D&D thinking) or is the cleric a person to be seriously considered
• Is religion important in your world?  Little things like when the cleric comes to town people say "Sir would you please bless my home by staying with us tonight for free.... Sorry we can't accommodate your friends."  When they go 'shopping' people give them a little extra or ask for their advice.
• Think about how people in our world feel when they see someone walk into where they are at with a pistol strapped to their hip (use to see this in Texas and Arizona all the time).  Made me nervous (not trying to start a gun argument)?  How would people react seeing someone walking down the street armed to the teeth.
• What happens when they come to town?  Does the town guard disarm the warriors of their swords and armor but lets the priest keep their staff/mace because "well he/she is a priest we can trust them"

If your adventures are mostly dungeon crawls then none of my suggestions will work.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

 

• Campaign world
• How many players
• Describe the characters a bit more
• How many points are the characters being built on
• Are all the fighters built like bricks or some of them finesse style fighters
• Run some adventures where role playing (instead of roll playing) is the focus.  More talking less fighting.  Especially ones where the mage and especially the cleric can take the lead.
• Is the cleric just a weak version of a mage (i.e. D&D thinking) or is the cleric a person to be seriously considered
• Is religion important in your world?  Little things like when the cleric comes to town people say "Sir would you please bless my home by staying with us tonight for free.... Sorry we can't accommodate your friends."  When they go 'shopping' people give them a little extra or ask for their advice.
• Think about how people in our world feel when they see someone walk into where they are at with a pistol strapped to their hip (use to see this in Texas and Arizona all the time).  Made me nervous (not trying to start a gun argument)?  How would people react seeing someone walking down the street armed to the teeth.
• What happens when they come to town?  Does the town guard disarm the warriors of their swords and armor but lets the priest keep their staff/mace because "well he/she is a priest we can trust them"

• Campaign world- Its actually portal, two different worlds one is based in a castle and the politics behind it, the other in a distant time period in a different world where they are regarded as fugitives.  
• How many players- 12 in all three. 
• Describe the characters a bit more- The characters more or less have very similar personalities. In fact, three of my players in one of my games are triplets. About three of them have a past involving some sort of forced fighting and most of rest are like castle soldiers. My mages are a wide variety, and my clerics have different powers and deities. 
• How many points are the characters being built on- 400
• Are all the fighters built like bricks or some of them finesse style fighters- Most are Bricks, one or two are finesse. 
• Is the cleric just a weak version of a mage (i.e. D&D thinking) or is the cleric a person to be seriously considered? A cleric has holy powers that are just as, if not more powerful, than a mage.
• Is religion important in your world?  EXTREMELY.
• What happens when they come to town?  Does the town guard disarm the warriors of their swords and armor but lets the priest keep their staff/mace because "well he/she is a priest we can trust them"? They usually are trusted with their weapons in the original world, not in the portal world.  

 

 

 

As Words Die, I Die With It Via 10 Swordsmen