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Hi All,

I started playing 6th ed Champions with my gaming group a few months ago. I find they min/max the characters and spend 90+pts in offense and defense. We are all experienced players having gamed for 30+ years, but this is the first time with Champions since the early 1990s...

 

I have been using the old 2nd and 3rd edition books, for adventures, and it has been going pretty well, but as a general rule what is a 400pt 6th ed character equal to in 3rd edition? Roughly...

 

If a character selects invisibility (sight and hearing, no fringe, always on), can they be heard while speaking? The player insists he can be heard while speaking, but can't be seen with sonar or infravision. I argued always on is a disadvantage, so no he can not be heard and any discriminatory sight or hearing, other than standard would make the hero visible. Disciminatory senses typically cost 15pts, and it should offset his 20pt power. Am I wrong?

 

Ugh. The same person argued mental paralysis as written CC pg65, states he doesn't need a common way of getting out of mental paralysis, because the book states mental atttacks will do it. I responded:

 there is no +3/4 advantage:
P66 Takes no damage from attack has 3 values +1/4, +1/2, +1. Now go and read the description. at one +1/2 it's transparent to all attacks, BUT +1 can not be attacked,... ... or affected by an outside character. I believe the last sentence is incorrect, ...takes no damage at the +1 (should be +1/2) must specify AT LEAST ONE REASONABLY COMMON AND OBVIOUS WAY TO REMOVE THE ENTANGLE OTHER THAN THE VICTIM BREAKING OUT NORMALLY.
 
He wanted sleep as a common way to break out, but I responded:
Yes. Everyone can fall asleep, but not in combat. Entangle is the basis for mental paralysis, and with entangle anyone can help the entangled character with their hands. Everyone has hands, even non-super heroes. Mental blast is NOT common. The book has an error: there is no +3/4 takes no damage from attacks, so I will allow the sleep. Against my better judgement.
 

If you have a not discrimatory sense, and know a invisible character is around, what is the OCV/DCV modifiers? How about hitting blind, with no senses giving a clue as to the whereabouts?

 

The party has min/maxed, so abilities they don't use in an attack is generally low or normal, making it fairly easy to exploit. I've made recommendations to try to be better rounded, but they became upset saying I was trying to micro-manage too much.  Is there any advice you can give me about guidelines for character builds?

 

 
 

What does everyone think?​

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Generally, a 350 point 5e character is actually more powerful than a 400 point 6e character.  I think this holds true for 4e as well.  But I am not sure if it does with 3e too.  For stuff from that era I really think you'll just need to compare CV's Defenses, SPD and Damage Class of attacks.

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1 - 90 points or more in attacks and defences isn't terrible - so long as everyone is similar.

 

2 - Can't speak to direct conversion points but with that kind of active point expenditure you'll have to fudge any opponent a bit based on their role (let the mooks still be mooks, beef up the threats). Don't worry about the points on villains in the adventure so much as making sure that if they are supposed to be 'as powerful as the hero' that they have attacks and defences comparable to what the heroes are fielding (hence my comment 'so long as everyone is similar').  

 

3 - You are correct.  If his invisibility is always on to hearing he can't be heard. Not even by discriminatory. It's one of the most obviously  disadvantaged 'Always on' there is - one actually worth points as opposed to an attempt at free points (I'm looking at you, always on life support)

 

4 - Entangle scares me.  I'll let others take a crack at it.

 

Edit: As for the ocv/dcv penalties and attacking invisible opponents they're in the books. And frankly, it's painful. The character will be more or less untouchable at range without tactics or special powers from the opponents.  Let him get away with it frequently (though given his entangle attempt I'd be less lenient than normal) but as the world learns of him don't be afraid to have organizations adapt from time to time - held actions with AoE attacks to target the hex his attacks come from, etc.  Try not to give everything under the sun a targeting sense that can find him but do make a few enemies that can (Danger sense, spacial awareness, etc). 

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Mental paralysis was a pet hate for my group.  If they even suspected a villain had the power they would group stomp him at the expense of all other strategy.  as such the power was never used in my campaign by players or villains.

 

try using it as a power on the players and see how they like it, test what their response is to a power that removes them from play with little chance of anyone getting them back into play.

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Edit: The character will be more or less untouchable at range without tactics or special powers from the opponents.  Let him get away with it frequently (though given his entangle attempt I'd be less lenient than normal) but as the world learns of him don't be afraid to have organizations adapt from time to time - held actions with AoE attacks to target the hex his attacks come from, etc.  Try not to give everything under the sun a targeting sense that can find him but do make a few enemies that can (Danger sense, spacial awareness, etc). 

 

When thinking about this, you have to remember that all of the villains plans will take into account the abilities of the heroes, it is the villain's greatest advantage - they know the abilities of the heroes, they know what they face and, if they are wise, will have planned on how to deal with them. not all of those plans will involve finding combat options.

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Mental paralysis was a pet hate for my group.  If they even suspected a villain had the power they would group stomp him at the expense of all other strategy.  as such the power was never used in my campaign by players or villains.

 

try using it as a power on the players and see how they like it, test what their response is to a power that removes them from play with little chance of anyone getting them back into play.

 

I used to call that power "The I Win Button."

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thanks for the replies.

 

Any idea what the rough conversion cost between 3rd ed and 6th is?

 

Villians, I typically boost powers by 15 to 20 Cp in attack powers to keep things interesting. Minions and thugs I typically do leave alone, well, I have increased attack in a few to keep the party interested. most of the party can't be hurt by 40-45pt attacks:

 

40ED/PD 1/2 is rPD/rED (60str attacks)

35PD/ED (60str attack), with only 5 rPD/rEd,

26 Pd/Ed with 18rED/PD (135 VPP w/ 90 control),

32PD/ED with 23rPD/Ed w/60pt attacks

invisible+20PD/ED+ none rPD/rEd, 90 pts mental power pool (see below)

 

 

Invisibilty + 90pts in a mental multipowr makes for a character hard to stop. I did call him a reverse Helen Keller, no one can see or hear him...His plan was to use one-way 9d6 mind scan to set the victim up (this way he has a connection and doesn't need line-of-sight), possibly 6d6 ego+mental defense drain, then 4d6 mental paralysis, or 9d6 mental blast or 10d6 mental control. He was upset, he couldn't do what he wanted (speak while always on sight+hearing invisbilty, he wanted every power in a IIF focus- I warned him(if he lost the focus, he would be a punching bag), and he changed, but didn't like it.), and refused to come to the last gaming session.

 

Has anyone noticed the +3/4 no damage from attack advantage in pg65 is incorrect, there is no +3/4 advantage listed on pg66? +1/2 (another error on pg66, which lists it as a +1 advantage), states must have a common way to remove the entangle. Read my reply above... Is sleep too uncommon? As it will eliminate them for the combat.

 

Thanks Phydaux, I may ban mental paralysis, but I will probably attack the party with it, and then suggest banning it...

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I would say that sleep is a bit too vague. Why does sleep allow them to escape? Is it the length of sleep, the brain activity profile or something else?

 

If the sleep profile could be projected on someone's brain - artificially induced brain pattern - would that work? If so, I think that it would be fine. If it is you need to wait eight hours, then it is not. :-)

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I don't like the idea of sleep, simply because entangle anyone can help - even non-heroes can hit it and break it (in theory). Mental paralysis with a lower level of (+1/4, +1/2) takes no damage from attacks must specify, a similar way to help (although, again it is listed as the +1 advantage, I believe it should be the lower levels -what do you think). Sleep involves a fair amount of time, and no one can help them -well, maybe a mentalist who can put them to sleep or fake sleep .

 

And again, CC pg 65 lists mental paralysis take no damage from attacks as a +3/4, but on CC pg66 there is no +3/4 advantage... How common should th help be with a  +3/4 advantage? I still think sleep is too uncommon and you can't get sleep assistance to be used at +3/4 level. Opinions?

 

How does everyone feel about mental powers being invisible? Most characters don't have as much mental protection as protection from Physical/energy attacks, and making the attacks invisible makes the mental power even more powerful. I can understand telepathy being invisible, but attacks I feel should be visible. Steve long stated he doesn't answer design/philosophy questions, and suggested I post it for discussion...

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Mental Paralysis is practically its own power on page 65.  The reason that it is a 3/4 is a specific level for it that over-rides the advantage on the next page - because the mental paralysis paragraph describes how to use it. Since it  can be affected by mental attacks it's not the full +1 but because it's mental they over-costed the 1/2. It's a custom modifier.  Mind you, you're in trouble if they pay the full +1 instead - that's when your 'sleep' or common circumstance rears its ugly head as even mental powers stop working on it.

 

There doesn't *need* to be a common way of removing it, technically, because it's not the full +1 - 65 specifies what can and can't affect it.  That those effects aren't common are part of the reason that it's costed the way it is.  Is it still too cheap? That depends on your campaign setting - in mine it's *rare* to find anyone, especially heroes or villains of merit, without Mental Defense or Ego - psychics are a known phenomena and people have taken steps to protect themselves (mental defence isn't as common as PD or ED, but it's more common than  Flash Defense in my campaign):  You wouldn't try to arrest Mr Bulletspam without a bulletproof vest, you wouldn't try and arrest Mindplaydoh Man without a psionic resisting helmet.  

 

In other campaigns, as mentioned, it can easily be an "I win" button. If nobody knows that mentalists are out there then mentalists get to run amok and can be among the most disruptive things in a game. Encourage the rest of the table to throw dice at the offending player whenever he ruins a night of heroic fun for them by putting Doctor Destroyer's brain in a box on phase 12. :)

 

As for making mental attacks visible - I usually do in order to save some character points (perceivable disadvantage).  As GM you could enforce that - but if you have a problem player it's better to suggest saving some points this way (or suggesting they don't take the power at all if you think it's truly disruptive).

.

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Hi All,

I started playing 6th ed Champions with my gaming group a few months ago. I find they min/max the characters and spend 90+pts in offense and defense. We are all experienced players having gamed for 30+ years, but this is the first time with Champions since the early 1990s...

 

I have been using the old 2nd and 3rd edition books, for adventures, and it has been going pretty well, but as a general rule what is a 400pt 6th ed character equal to in 3rd edition? Roughly...

 

If a character selects invisibility (sight and hearing, no fringe, always on), can they be heard while speaking? The player insists he can be heard while speaking, but can't be seen with sonar or infravision. I argued always on is a disadvantage, so no he can not be heard and any discriminatory sight or hearing, other than standard would make the hero visible. Disciminatory senses typically cost 15pts, and it should offset his 20pt power. Am I wrong?

 

Ugh. The same person argued mental paralysis as written CC pg65, states he doesn't need a common way of getting out of mental paralysis, because the book states mental atttacks will do it. I responded:

 there is no +3/4 advantage:
P66 Takes no damage from attack has 3 values +1/4, +1/2, +1. Now go and read the description. at one +1/2 it's transparent to all attacks, BUT +1 can not be attacked,... ... or affected by an outside character. I believe the last sentence is incorrect, ...takes no damage at the +1 (should be +1/2) must specify AT LEAST ONE REASONABLY COMMON AND OBVIOUS WAY TO REMOVE THE ENTANGLE OTHER THAN THE VICTIM BREAKING OUT NORMALLY.
 
He wanted sleep as a common way to break out, but I responded:
Yes. Everyone can fall asleep, but not in combat. Entangle is the basis for mental paralysis, and with entangle anyone can help the entangled character with their hands. Everyone has hands, even non-super heroes. Mental blast is NOT common. The book has an error: there is no +3/4 takes no damage from attacks, so I will allow the sleep. Against my better judgement.
 

If you have a not discrimatory sense, and know a invisible character is around, what is the OCV/DCV modifiers? How about hitting blind, with no senses giving a clue as to the whereabouts?

 

The party has min/maxed, so abilities they don't use in an attack is generally low or normal, making it fairly easy to exploit. I've made recommendations to try to be better rounded, but they became upset saying I was trying to micro-manage too much.  Is there any advice you can give me about guidelines for character builds?

 

 
 

What does everyone think?​

1) IMHO a 400pt 6e character is ~275-325pt 5e and earlier character, depending on character type. Characters that get a lot of bang for their buck from figured Characteristics can be built with less points in 5e and earlier. I recommend looking at a 6e NPC's dice of damage vs their Defenses to get a clearer picture about how they will stack up against an earlier edition character.

 

2) Always on is only a -1/4 limitation, Also this IS a roleplaying game, so I would allow the invis character to speak. I would also allow characters with Targeting Hearing (ie Sonar) to target the otherwise invisible character. Rules wise, I would say that it depends on the power's special effect.

 

3) Mental Paralysis also allows people to use their Ego as Strength. I would not say that Mental Attacks are a common attack (though you could point out that you could make them a common attack if he wants you to).

 

4)6e2 pg 125 Inability To Sense and Opponent.

A character who cannot perceive his opponent(s) or target(s) with a Targeting Sense (because he’s been attacked with a Flash, is in a Darkness field, is otherwise “blinded,” or his opponent is Invisible) suffers the following penalties: In HTH Combat, the character is at ½ OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in HTH Combat, and is attacked in HTH Combat. In Ranged Combat, the character is at 0 OCV and ½ DCV. This applies both to when he makes attacks in Ranged Combat, and is attacked in Ranged Combat.

 

Overall. I would have limited the party to 12d6-14 attacks, no more than 30 defenses, CV 10-12 SPD 4-6 . It's about you being able to build challenges easier. with 90pts of defenses/and attacks, they blow earlier edition villains right out of the water. Most of the earlier edition adventures assume 8-10d6 attacks, with defenses in the 18-20 range. It's no unreasonable for you to set limits on the power of their characters. It's also ok to say no to certain power constructions. ie I would have said NO to Always on Invisibility. It just wrecks out of combat roleplaying. He can get the same milage out of Zero End Persistant invis.

 

BTW Mental powers are ALWAYS Visible to the target of the attack(unless the mental power has invis power effects). FYI

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FYI -- It's not in CC, but in 6th edition rules under Invisibility there is a specific notation under Incantations:

 

 

If a character speaks while Invisible to the Hearing Group, whether it’s Incantations or normal speech, other people can hear him speaking.

 

In general, the "mental sniper" is a PITA (pain in the ***); see Hugh Neilson's Margarita Man for taking that idea to extremes.  When I was starting my new Champions campaign, I strongly advised the would-be mentalist player not to try pulling stuff like that.  However, since you already approved the invisible mentalist, I guess you just have to find ways to deal with it.  I'll try and post a few tricks in another post.

 

If "sleep" is the non-Mental Blast way to deal with his version, this can be learned by a bright enough person and disseminated throughout the villainous community.  Certainly, if someone can put an Entangled target to sleep (Mind Control, Telepathic, One Command), the sounds of battle would likely wake the person fairly quickly.  (Under Lightsleep, it says you make a Hearing PER -6 to wake if someone enters the room, makes an unusual noise, etc.  For normal noisy combat, I'd say Hearing PER at -2 to -0 to wake up, depending on the noise level.)

 

Personally, I'd turn it into a plot arc -- heroes are fighting a villain group and MindSniper mentally locks down BadBoy.  In swoops Utility who, rather than attacking the heroes, snatches BadBoy (back to his lab to study the mental paralysis, though the heroes won't know this).  An adventure or two later, the heroes learn that a doctor (an expert in sleep disorders) is kidnapped by person unknown.  They eventually track down the (stolen) van that hauled him away and find the doctor, who says he was forced to help Utility to build an Alpha-Wave Generator (AWG) that induces sleep.  An adventure later, the heroes then learn that Utility is selling AWGs (with tamper-proof cases and a 4-use, no-recharge power pack), for a relatively hefty price to any interested villain.  Limit two per person, while supplies last.

 

Assuming MindSniper wants to nip this in the bud, he might track down Utility (who BTW has a AWG installed in his goggles, Triggered if he ceases movement for more than 3 seconds, followed by a wake-up alarm, also Triggered).  And Utility reveals he set up a remote computer to automatically release AWG schematics (simplified, without the tamper-proof case) to every villain and criminal group Utility knows if he doesn't lissue a "continue hold" order within 48 hours. "Let me go, and you only have to deal with those willing to pay my price.  As a bonus, I'll do a six-month moratorium on new sales, since I'm a nice guy.  Jail me, and anybody will be able to build one on his kitchen table.  Every VIPER agent in your city will be carrying one within a week.  It's your choice MindSniper."

 

If the hero caves, I'd honor that deal, and then have just the occasional villain having an AWG handy after the 6-month moratorium.  Just enough to be a nuisance without being overbearing.  And if MindSniper says "No way!", AWGs can become as common as 5-point Flash Defense OIF goggles (which I believe may be a prize in cereal boxes).

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Also Entangle is Obvious and I don't see anything in the advantages taken to make it 'mental paralysis' that changes that.

 

2) Always on is only a -1/4 limitation, Also this IS a roleplaying game, so I would allow the invis character to speak. I would also allow characters with Targeting Hearing (ie Sonar) to target the otherwise invisible character. Rules wise, I would say that it depends on the power's special effect.

 

 

I don't know about 6th proper but it's -1/2 on page 97 of Champion's Complete (which the OP is using).  I like 1/4 as a cost better, though. 

 

If the hero caves, I'd honor that deal, and then have just the occasional villain having an AWG handy after the 6-month moratorium.  Just enough to be a nuisance without being overbearing.  And if MindSniper says "No way!", AWGs can become as common as 5-point Flash Defense OIF goggles (which I believe may be a prize in cereal boxes).

 

I agree with the spirit of this but problem player or not I don't feel any character should ever feel they have to 'cave' to villainous manipulations.  I'd give a couple of stronger villains the item over time, certainly, as his power becomes well known - but if it's his favourite power (and he's not doing this to intentionally disrupt the game) I'd also make it useful every fight.  You can't take Doctor D out with such trickery, but throw Gigaton or similar into the fight as mental paralysis bait and he's saved his team a world of hurt.

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Disclaimer:  The ideas below are not meant to hammer at MindSniper incessantly.  Treat them like spices -- a pinch or two sprinkled into a few adventures along the way can add just the right flavor.  Dump in too much, and it becomes a distasteful mess.

 

If Mental Paralysis becomes too much of a problem, VIPER might fast-track their prototype Neural Invigorator (Aid EGO 3d6, Trigger (precipitous drop in neuromuscular activity, resets automatically in no time), Self Only, OIF, 4 Charges).  Every Nest Needs One!  Gooooooo VIPER!!!

 

As to dealing with invisible mentalists, as Tasha pointed out the target of a successful attack will automatically know the attacker's location unless the attack has Invisible Power Effects.  And the +1/2 to make the attack Invisible to Mental won't do that alone; you need the +1/2 Effects are Invisible to Target. 

 

Also, there's the point that there are indirect ways to locate the invisible person.  Gee, why is this warehouse floor covered with sand?  Or go high-tech, with pressure-sensitive panels that light up when weight is applied.

 

Needless to say, there's the simple use of radar or motion detectors (for sense groups Radio or Touch).

 

If MindSniper's powers are not bought as Invisible to Mental, then I'd expect ARGENT's local office to have a run on their Psionic Detection Goggles (Mental Awareness, OIF -- $149.95 from ARGENT in a variety of styles and colors, or $99.65 at your local WalMart, only in blue and silver).  That, plus AoE attacks, perhaps NND (Try Our New Gamma-Ray Grenades!  Get 'em While They're Hot!) should help make his life interesting.

 

If the bad guys can pin his location to a 2-4m area, a Drain Invisibility 4d6, AoE, should mean that he now has a Fringe for a while, unless he also has Inherent or relatively high Power Defense.

 

- - - - -

 

Mind Scan Sniping can be a bit trickier to deal with, depending upon the Scan's details. 

 

If the Mind Scan is low dice but Cumulative, well, those are generally not as useful in combat, especially if the target has even just a few points of Mental Defense.

 

Did he put one big Mind Scan into the same Multipower as his other mental attacks?  All fixed slots, you say, for the full Multipower Pool?  (Maybe not, but it's a possible rookie move.)  Just chuckle to yourself silently and wait until he's locked on to point out that, as soon as he switches slots from Mind Scan to Mental Paralysis, the Lock-on ends.

 

If you have a villain group using Mind Link (from a mentalist), and MindSniper gets a lock on to one of the Linked people, then remember that the villain mentalist can attack MindSniper through the Link, even without seeing him.  But be aware that it runs both ways; the mentalist may want to drop the Locked-on target from the Mind Link immediately afterward, so MindSniper doesn't begin targeting him or the other villains through the same Link.

 

If the heroes also use Mind Link, this can get fun.  So BadMind is Linked to JoeDirt, who is Mind Scanned by MindSniper, who is Linked to the rest of the hero team.  BadMind could drop everybody but JoeDirt from his Mind Link, and then use his Link plus MindSniper's Scan Lock-On and Link to mentally attack MindSniper's teammates, even those BadMind can't see.

 

Remember:  BoloAdvice is to be used sparingly and responsibly.  Do NOT exceed normal doses or give BoloAdvice to squirrels.  Avoid driving, swimming, or using heavy machinery for 24 hours after taking BoloAdvice.  See our ad in Villain Prevention magazine.

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Mental attacks are visible to the victim, but by then it is too late... Most villians (or Heroes for that matter) don't have the stats to stand against the powers for more than a few rounds.

 

The mentalist isn't playing now, as we can't agree on abilities limitations. He would feel picked on, if I did turn it into an arc... (but I like the idea...)

 

He has one way mind scan, but (ha ha) it is in the same power pool as the rest of his mental powers. (thanks for pointing it out).

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I agree with the spirit of this but problem player or not I don't feel any character should ever feel they have to 'cave' to villainous manipulations.  I'd give a couple of stronger villains the item over time, certainly, as his power becomes well known - but if it's his favourite power (and he's not doing this to intentionally disrupt the game) I'd also make it useful every fight.

 

RE: caving to the villain, I agree they shouldn't feel they have to.  I actually prefer they don't cave.  Besides, just because he says anyone can make one with spare parts in a cave, doesn't make it so.  That's up to the GM.  But laying out such a dilemma for the hero is fitting, especially for someone like Utility.

 

Mainly, the whole thing was to describe one way to in-game justify the appearance of an unusual item.  Similar scenarios can be played out for other potentially-nuisance powers / power combos (shrunken brick, etc.)

 

As to the Mental Paralysis itself, I got the impression from the OP that it was excessive and disruptive, but I could be wrong.  I do know that it can easily become a mentalist's go-to power, especially if the target has low EGO or the bad guys don't have a mentalist handy.  And the OP's statement of the mentalist tactic of using a 6d6 Drain EGO + Mental Defense, followed by the 4d6 Mental Entangle, sounds a lot like he's using it as an automatic "I WIN" power.

 

(BTW, Pranqstr, be aware that Adjustment effects on defensive powers are halved -- see CC-46.  So if he rolls 21 points of Drain, that only drops Mental Defense by 10 points.  Still "ouch" but just pointing that out.)

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Also Entangle is Obvious and I don't see anything in the advantages taken to make it 'mental paralysis' that changes that.

 

 

I don't know about 6th proper but it's -1/2 on page 97 of Champion's Complete (which the OP is using).  I like 1/4 as a cost better, though. 

 

 

I agree with the spirit of this but problem player or not I don't feel any character should ever feel they have to 'cave' to villainous manipulations.  I'd give a couple of stronger villains the item over time, certainly, as his power becomes well known - but if it's his favourite power (and he's not doing this to intentionally disrupt the game) I'd also make it useful every fight.  You can't take Doctor D out with such trickery, but throw Gigaton or similar into the fight as mental paralysis bait and he's saved his team a world of hurt.

 

Changes, changes. Still I would allow the Invis character to speak. Though I would NOT allow an Always on Invisibility.

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He has one way mind scan, but (ha ha) it is in the same power pool as the rest of his mental powers. (thanks for pointing it out).

 

I didn't notice the One-Way on that, so ignore the stuff about enemy mentalists attacking through the Mind Link.

 

It's hard making a mentalist that won't either (1) be ineffectual, or (2) walk all over most everybody.  Then throw in (3) make the GM happy.

 

The mentalist PC in my game has a smaller Multipower (something like 30-45 points) with slots for a Mind Link (any 8), out-of-combat Mind Scan (4d6 Cumulative), and in-combat Mind Scan (6-9d6).  Circe typically has the Mind Link active for the team to chat securely, but if necessary she can drop that and lock on to an enemy.  All of her attack powers are in her main Multipower (60-70 points).  A psychokinetic punch (straight physical Blast), Mental Blast, cumulative Telepathy, cumulative Mind Control, straight Mental Illusions. To me, Telepathy is more often used out of combat, and the player went with cumulative Mind Control to allow eventual domination versus instant manipulation.

 

RE: Mental Paralysis, one suggestion is to push (if not require) the Limitation: Mental Defense adds to EGO.  It makes the power more palatable, at least to me.  I also require a fairly common way to break free, with slapping or throwing cold water in the face being effective most of the time.  And since none of the PCs have that power, these requirements mainly benefit the heroes.

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As to the Mental Paralysis itself, I got the impression from the OP that it was excessive and disruptive, but I could be wrong.  I do know that it can easily become a mentalist's go-to power, especially if the target has low EGO or the bad guys don't have a mentalist handy.  And the OP's statement of the mentalist tactic of using a 6d6 Drain EGO + Mental Defense, followed by the 4d6 Mental Entangle, sounds a lot like he's using it as an automatic "I WIN" power.

 

 

Oh, there's no way he isn't in this situation.  Though frankly the drain 6d6 Ego is already "I win" enough unless someone's packing a decent amount of power defense - EGO 0 isn't a happy place to be - and shows a player's intent nicely.  There's always the one person that doesn't throw 50 points into strength - he throws it into presence.

 

 

It's hard making a mentalist that won't either (1) be ineffectual, or (2) walk all over most everybody.  Then throw in (3) make the GM happy.

 

Incredibly true.  Psychics are relatively common in my setting, on both sides of the law, so there's a lot of in world counters and almost no serious villain (or hero) is without mental defence - just enough for a tap or two of cumulative to overcome in most cases (balancing around 'ok, it would take the brick three punches to 'ko' this guy - it should take the mentalist three 'hits' to put them out of the fight).  Also common is the 'would take the brick 6 to 8 punches to KO this guy - mentalist still can do it in three.  

 

It's hard work even without someone actively trying disrupt things.

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I'm running a 3rd ed adventure, and adding a bit to attack and defense helps keep them on their toes. The module, has a fair amount of different attacks and enemies: dinosaurs, a misguided Robocop, (I added a group of villains ,and misguided "normal" humans), bad normal humans, robots, demons, and many of the enemies have alternate senses- IR, radar, smell. I decided to keep the mentalist from getting bored to make them discrimatory once-in-a-while...

 

Can non-discrimatory senses detect at a penalty?

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Ah, this is my beef with Champions Complete - I applaud it's attempts to reduce the word salad of 6E Vol.1+2 but it has gone too far in a lot of places.

 

Invisibility To Hearing + Talking; Yes, you can talk while Invisible To Hearing Group (6E Vol.1 does cover this, page 241; but hardly helps if you're not using or don't have access to it); But applying some common sense to the concept; you're effectively voluntarily turning off part of the Power when you talk, or from a more dramatic point of view: What about the Power and it's Special Effect would stop this action? On the flip side, talking should give others a Perception Roll with Hearing to locate the Character that breaks their field of silence.

 

+3/4 Advantage on Entangle for Mental Paralysis: no, it's not a mistake, or typo. As noted: It's a special level created just for turning Entangle into a Mental Power without going to the full +1 Level. CC specifically says "See Text" in the Power, and then goes on in the next paragraph to describe exactly what the +3/4 level means.

 

The last sentence on Transparent To Attacks is also not incorrect, the +1/2 Level does not have to specify a reasonably common way. At the +1/2 Level you can still target the Entangle specifically, at the +1 Level you cannot even do that (hence the "reasonably common" clause). Thus the reasoning behind the +3/4 Level: You can still target the Entangle Specifically, but with the more uncommon Only Mental Powers That Do Damage - of which there is only 1 by default, others require Advantages. Mentalists can still 'attack' a Mental Paralysis, 

 

In all cases the Character can still use their inherent abilities to target an Entangle on them specifically (either STR for normal Entangles, or EGO for the Mental Paralysis: which translates the same way as STR: 1D6 / 5 Points of Ego). This is how you break out of Mental Paralysis normally, "EGO Damage". (As an aside there is a Mental Defense Adds To Ego -1/2 Limitation that can help with this issue, or simply rule that Mental Defense automatically adds if you don't want to spend hours with Mentally Paralyzed Characters).

 

As for advice on min/maxed characters and abilities; Abilities in Hero are only as useful as the frequency in which they appear to be needed in game. Run several sessions where Social Interaction trumps Combat and you'll see a slight shift towards expanded Social Skills; Likewise if you have some emphasis on needed Knowledge Skills, or other Non-Combat Skills, you'll see an increase in point spent on those. But if the game has a focus of "encounter, information, combat" and combat takes up most of the game sessions, you'll see points gravitate towards that effect.

 

Detecting Things: Technically, none of your senses are inherently Discriminatory, they're all "discriminatory-ish"; Pages 134-136 cover Detecting with various senses and penalties for them. You can use a Non-Discriminatory Sense to try and locate a targets general area, allowing for an attempt to Target them with the standard Penalties (without even this detection, you can't target them at all, and are just Attacking blindly).

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Now sure if were way off topic yet, but I've been playing Champs since '85 and I have lost track of the number of times one Mentalist NPC (or jerk player running a Mentalist PC) has run the table on all the PCs, bringing them all to 0 STUN with a few Ego Blasts.

 

Heck, in my current campaign one player has nothing but a 6D6 Entangle, Rapid Attack, and a stack of 2-point OCV skill levels.  Every Action Phase he spams out Entangles 3 & 4 at a time.  Thank God he has a low SPD & DEX because, every fight, after his Action Phase there's nothing left to do.  

 

See, there's a skill to building a good TEAM, just like there's a skill to building a good character.  Every player has to ask himself "Do I want to play a character who can do something no other character on the team can do, or do I want to play the character that makes every other character on the team UNNECESSARY?"  Good players stick to well established comic book archetypes & tropes.  Some players can play a Weird and make it fun for everyone.  Other players can't be trusted to play a Weird.

 

But that's a 20-point Character Limitation on the player, not the PC.

 

One of the good things that has come out of the points creep over the various edition, while keeping the DCs for PCs caped at 12, is there are a lot of points available to PCs for skills & utility powers.  Back in the day, trying to build a PC on 250 points, you had room for an attack power, a defense power, a movement power, and that's about it.  In 6th it seems that nearly every PC I make has room for 45 points of skills, some enhanced senses (Night Vision, UV, IR), a few Perks or Talents, a little Life Support, a little bit of exotic defense (Flash, Power, Mental, Hardened, Imprenitatible).  

 

So now days an NPC with a Drain or a Flash or an Ego Blast or an NND isn't the show stopper that it was.  And when the team bursts into Dr. Impossible's lair and see the timer on the OMEGA BOMB ticking down toward zero, odds are fairly good that SOMEONE on the team has the Demolitions skill.

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Heck, in my current campaign one player has nothing but a 6D6 Entangle, Rapid Attack, and a stack of 2-point OCV skill levels.  Every Action Phase he spams out Entangles 3 & 4 at a time.  Thank God he has a low SPD & DEX because, every fight, after his Action Phase there's nothing left to do.  

 

Heh.  If I were GM, at least once I'd have the hero team face off against a group whose members have Reflection, Any Target.  (We'll call 'em Rebound Ralph, Teleport Ted, Teke Tina, and Shields Sally.)  "Congrats, Webmaster, you've just helped the bad guys take out your own team."

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ghost-Angel,

You said "...voluntarily turning off part of his power to talk...", but Always On is a limitation, so it should not benefit him. I told him he can not have Always On as this is a roleplaying game, not a combat boardgame.

 

The problem character doesn't want to roleplay - his last character for Champions was a little homeless 10 year old, and I objected and he bitched. This 10 year old, had gravity/density powers including gravity-transform-continuous-too heavy to move. He had no other skills, no real roleplaying skills, no knowledge skills. The other members of the party objected to him being a child (how to you acquire information or investigate as a child?) he changed his character to an adult, but then designed a mentalist (former drug maker, and seller, rich, but feels bad about it. So now he is using his powers for good, SUPPOSELY).

 

We will discuss it in a few weeks, when we all have a boardgame night.

 

I'm hoping he continues to stay away from the game, and then I will hit the party with mental paralysis and see if they want to ban it...

 

I am going to incorporate more psychic/mental powers into the games to keep things balanced. If the tank or blasters takes 2-3 rounds to knock a character out, then so should the mentalist.

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