Active Point caps and Naked Advantages

[JohnBear]

Active Point caps and Naked Advantages

 

Just curious as to how anyone has handled this in the past (both in heroic and superheroic games).

 

Assume a 60 point cap

 

Do I allow them to combine or have the power drop down so the fit the cap?

 

Example of combining:

60 point HKA (4d6 killing) with an Armor Piercing Naked Advantage = 90 points

 

Example of drop down:

40point HKA (2 1/2 d6 killing) with an Armor Piercing Naked Advantage = 60 points

 

While this is obviously my choice as gm I'm looking for additional input.

 

Thanks

 

[Scott Baker]

For attacks, maybe you want to consider the DCs rather than just the point cap. 

 

If I had set a cap at 60 points as you give in your example, I would consider the first option to be a clear violation of that. I also wouldn't let you buy a 4D6 HKA and increase it using a power framework (e.g., a multipowr slot for +2D6 HKA).

[Hyper-Man]

re: heroic level games.

 

Do you mean Active Points for equipment?

 

I ask because a good sniper rifle can exceed 140 Active Points (see my John Wick movie thread for an example).

[ghost-angel]

Depends on how you want to deal with the campaign and the effects of AP and DC caps. If you're going for specific levels of damage (i.e. Damage Classes) versus the more generalized Point Effectiveness (i.e. Active Points).

 

Some Advantages have more effect on DCs than others do (Armor Piercing is going to have more generalized effect than Variable SFX will, for example).

 

Overall you're looking at what you're trying to do with Naked Advantages in the campaign rather than the straight forward mechanical effect. If we're looking at a campaign where the Characters get Equipment, then Variable Advantages become more like How Good They Are With Stuff (a McGuyveer effect); If the characters are in campaigns where they're buying all their Powers/Abilities, then NAs are just another kind of more expensive Multiple Power Pool.

 

But from a pure Mechanical point of view - if you don't want powers exceeding a campaign limit of some nature on a regular basis (Active Point, Damage Class, or both) then you will want the Power + NA = Game Cap to be the general ruling.

 

Because if a Player has it, expect it to get used with some regularity; given no limiters. Now, if it's a kind of trick where the NAs have Charges or other strict Limitations, then the occasional Exceed Campaign Limits (even if the charges are used every session the number of instances is limited, or the circumstances don't occur all the time) probably won't break your game.

 

In short - You have put Campaign Limits in place for a reason, understanding that reason and its effects on the world and expectations of the game will help you understand if, or when & how often, you want those limits exceeded.

[DasBroot]

For attacks, maybe you want to consider the DCs rather than just the point cap. 

 

If I had set a cap at 60 points as you give in your example, I would consider the first option to be a clear violation of that. I also wouldn't let you buy a 4D6 HKA and increase it using a power framework (e.g., a multipowr slot for +2D6 HKA).

 

A mistake I made and won't make again at character creation in my first attempt at a Champions game in 20 years two years ago.  I put a 60 AP cap but didn't make a DC cap per se - so more than one person ended up with a base 70 str and a 12d6 hand attack.  26d6 wasn't what I had in mind - especially when people new to the system thought they were doing pretty well with their multipower with a 12d6 blast in it.  They didn't know they 'had' to take an out of pool Aid for it to be anywhere near the bricks and 'having' to take anything was a feeling I wanted to avoid.

 

Then there was the system pro that had an energy attack with three naked advantages laired on to it. Double armor piercing, autofire, and no-end.  Burned a lot of points on a one trick pony - but it was a hell of a trick.

[JohnBear]

Thanks guys,

 

We're testing out some new rules for (heroic) fantasy hero (homebrew campaign) and so yes, we did put in DC limits and there AP limits do apply to "magic" equipment. You want the stock Longsword? Or Pike? No problem (even though a pike exceeds the limits).

 

But just by asking that question Hyper-man you helped me start thinking about this...

 

As we build our "test" characters we just allocated a pot of character points the players can use for equipment to represent what they have at start (before I start worrying about cash cost for magic items - yeesh another can o worms)

 

Because when you buy equip (a sword) with cash you get a HKA which is what will happen once the game starts.

 

Much to think about

 

Thanks again

[ghost-angel]

Check out Resource Points in either Dark Champions (p153) or the Advanced Players Guide (p191) for the possibility of dealing with access to lots of equipment, both mundane and magical. It might help you balance out those who paid for magic against those who don't pay for equipment.

[JohnBear]

Thanks Ghost. I'm already familiar with Resource points from another game we were playing until just recently. In fact we had to really focus on that for a while because we were playing a heroic game and one character had unlimited wealth.

 

FWIW here's our starting conditions:

 

Starting Equipment:

 

Assume 200 (real) points worth of gear – mundane and magical. Everyone will have cash on hand of 5000 sp. Magical and unique gear must have the “Independent” limitation. If it’s off the shelf mundane, no need for “Independent”. If you want to be sure you never lose it, spend character points. We’ll be using a silver piece standard.

Starting Wealth and the Money Perk

Because of the repercussions of the money perk in a heroic game (where you pay for equipment with cash rather than character points) when we discussed it, we placed some serious limits on how it would be played in game.

Based upon the backgrounds for the current characters, Tywin and Mal are the only ones that would actually have the money perk at any serious level, and even then their access to those funds is (currently) extremely limited. And if Tywin were to go home, he could literally afford any magic item of any power level available. If it wasn’t available he could commission it no questions asked.

In a heroic game, this is a problem.

So what we’ve decided to do is treat the money perk (for PCs) as it would be treated in a superheroic game (hand waving to say you don’t have to worry about “stuff”). When back home visiting the family Tywin and Mal would enjoy the lifestyle of the rich and famous (if they’re not dodging the police or other shadowy figures), but that doesn’t translate into spending money here in the armpit of the verse (assuming there was someplace to spend it, that is…).

This has no bearing on what you do with your treasure or loot. If you grab 100,000gp from the dragon then you can spend it on anything you want (assuming you can find it).

 

Many of the limits I'm putting in place are primarily geared towards the startup and while we're in the "debug" period. Then we can re-evaluate.

 

Plus, this will be my first time as a Hero GM (we're converting a pathfinder campaign over). I've been a D&D DM since '79, so I have to get up to speed on things as GM here.

 

After reading the various settings from DOJ and the enchanted items guide I think I can see how they were intended to work so that's what I'm going for.

[Lucius]

 

If an Advantage is wearing an Active Point Cap is it really Naked?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it's a clothes call

[JohnBear]

  They didn't know they 'had' to take an out of pool Aid for it to be anywhere near the bricks and 'having' to take anything was a feeling I wanted to avoid.

 

Exactly what I'm hoping for

[JohnBear]

If an Advantage is wearing an Active Point Cap is it really Naked?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it's a clothes call

 

::cough choke cough wheeze:: I read that just as I was swallowing a cup of coffee. ::cough hack::

[bigdamnhero]

Example of drop down:

40point HKA (2 1/2 d6 killing) with an Armor Piercing Naked Advantage = 60 points

This is the way I would treat it. That said, I generally regard caps as "soft" caps or guidelines* so I will sometimes make exceptions, especially if the Naked Advantage is itself heavily limited. For example, if the Advantage only works vs a specific type of creature they will only encounter occasionally, or only works under the light of a new moon or something that means it's only going to come up once in a great while. But as a baseline attack the player can use regularly? The AP cap includes all Advantages, whether internal or external.

[Lucius]

::cough choke cough wheeze:: I read that just as I was swallowing a cup of coffee. ::cough hack::

Maybe you should cut back on the coughee. Sounds like it's making you coff.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Though the rough cough and hiccough plough the palindromedary through, it ought to cross the lough.

[JohnBear]

First chance I had to log back in. And just wanted to say "Thanks". You folks helped a lot when we were thinking about how the caps would work, what would be a debugging tool and what restrictions we might want to relax after testing. Thanks again.

[Ninja-Bear]

No problem. I would be interested on how it works (or) doesn't for you. And how you specifically used them.

[Sean Waters]

I mainly play superpowered level games and the points you are using as examples seem to be in that kind of arena.

 

Generally I'm not that bothered about caps as such, it depends how effective the power is.  I mean, by and large you get more damage through defences out of an armour piercing blast than a straight blast, at least until defence thinking catches up, and no one worries about that.  Generally if you are one-shotting every opponent you are far too effective, but then, if someone wanted an AOE on a 10d6 blast in a 12d6 game, I might allow it.  Great at hitting but averaging 7 less damage per hit, rarely stunning, and often difficult to use without hitting friendlies.  OK, same point cap as a 75 point power, but nowhere near as generally effective as a 15d6 blast, by and large.

 

Of course then you have to look at overall build: is this a main attack or a specialist tool in a Power Pool?  That makes a big difference.

 

My answer therefore is there is no hard and fast rule I use, you need to get a feel for how the character works, bearing in mind everything, defences, movement, utility powers, limitations, even team synergy.

 

You also have to bear in mind that, if you want to play a killer blast character, you are going to get smooshed by any sensible opponent group first thing.  You'll be the first target, and they will gang up on you.

 

I think it can be fun and interesting to have a game with disproportionate builds, but, well, whether it is allowed under the rules or not is less important than how it is going to impact the game as a whole.  One thing to be said for it is that it makes combat quicker

 

I'm more often a GM than a player so an unbalanced PC is a constant challenge for the GM, which is often unfair as the GM has enough work to do, but, so long as the player is willing to accept both that there will be unbalanced NPCs and that NPCs might see them as the biggest threat and treat them accordingly, it can be fun.

 

Of course if this is a DnD type game and there is a magic item that allows you to do AP damage but only against, say, Dragons, well, that's probably fine.  You are not going to be stealing everyone's thunder every session.

 

Also, in 6e, AP is a +1/4 advantage, so is an interesting example: in 5e you get 40 points of AP attack in a 60 point cap, in 6e you get 48.

[JohnBear]

No problem. I would be interested on how it works (or) doesn't for you. And how you specifically used them.

 

Will report back